All Comments on 'Zero Tolerance'

by Selena_Kitt

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  • 18 Comments
joshuacarpinojoshuacarpinoover 15 years ago
selena...

...you are as smart as you are sexy.few people acknowlege the dangerous and cruel hypocrisy of ignoring the bullies and punishing the victims who try to fight back,a syndrome that i have experienced first hand.merry christmas to you,and may your son get more of a fair shake than i did in the future.p.s.,you may recognize my name.i bought some of your e-books earlier this year...

AnonymousAnonymousover 15 years ago
Hear! Hear!

Rare to see such common sense!

m1k3m1k3over 15 years ago
Well thought out

It was a well thought out article.

<br><br>

I'm not a parent or anything but I am concerned about how schools were changing whilst I was still in them, and how they continue to make it harder for social stability by teaching "wrong" lessons.

AnonymousAnonymousover 15 years ago
"A vain attempt to prevent those others from

killing us". Wow , I missed it, were the mega deaths that occurred when they blew up the Golden Gate Bridge or was it when they blew up the Statue of Liberty?

You do have a prejudice towards boys as the criminal element, the only who fight in schools, the only ones with criminal records. Let's forget the statistic that 20% of Domestic Violence cases are instigated by women and have male victims. Where is your background for these women?

I will agree that zero tolerance is a defination for zero common sense.

JPTurner70JPTurner70over 15 years ago
Insanity

Well thought out commentary on a ridiculous policy. Does no one use common sense anymore? Kindergarteners are getting suspended for throwing snowballs, for god's sake! Schools are insane. Thanks for your view!

AnonymousAnonymousover 15 years ago
Excellent!

Without being in any disagreement with your points, let me take the issue one step further.

The primary problem (as I see things) with a Zero Tolerance policy is that it relieves those in charge from the inconvenience of needing to THINK; or stated differently, to apply simple Common Sense.

When an elementary student can get suspended for merely drawing a handgun, or for forming his hand and fingers in the shape of a gun, then Common Sense has long sense vanished. And the Zero Tolerance protection serves as nothing more than a unwarranted shield for people too lazy to think, and therefore unqualified to be in such position of authority.

my 2¢,

-- KK in Texas

KoreavetKoreavetover 15 years ago
Zero tolerance, zero pay.

Is it difficult to referee a quarrel between people? Sure, but that's what they get the big bucks for. A company that allowed workers to be bullied or even, heavens, to be sexually assaulted without restoring the peace and punishing the offender would very soon pay a high price. I was a depression skinny kid who saw his share of "Shake hands and be friends" crap even back then. Zero tolerance is for people who are too dumb to make a decision. A simple electric circuit can do as much, much cheaper. Kitty, I think I love you.

MalkorMalkorover 15 years ago
Fight Back...

"When you are offered violence, Fight Back!!! The criminal does not fear the law, therefore that criminal must be taught to fear you. Whatever the cost, whatever the consequence Fight Back!!!" -Jeff Hackworth Col (Ret) additionally, remember that "All that is necessary for for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" -sadly I don't remember right off the top of my head who said that but that does not diminish the truth of the statement. -M

AnonymousAnonymousover 15 years ago
Almost Perfect Essay

Selena_Kitt, you sound like a pretty good mom. Zero Tolerance = Zero Common Sense.

AnonymousAnonymousover 15 years ago
Surprized to see that here - Sympathy!

Well, I live in Greece and it seems we have big cultural differences, but as a parent of two little girls, 2,5 and 4 y.o. I feel very sympathetic with you at t is situation. We don't have this problem here and I'm shocked to hear the term "zero tolerance" being related with six year olds. How can this be true? If an institution made to educate starts with a violence of such kind by itself, how can it reduce violence? Here we have other problems of stupididy of public institutions but enough. Be well, I love your stuff I've read...

LoveIsAllYouNeedLoveIsAllYouNeedover 14 years ago
Intriguing, but ...

Self-esteem issues start with daycare, where, from a child's point of view, momy and daddy care more about money and buying things than they do loving and rainsing their kids. Self-esteem issues start when a child must adjust to being one of several children abandoned to the system at the tender age of four or less. Self-esteem issues start when a child in daycare learns the squeeky wheel gets the grease, that by whining, complaining, acting out, drama gets attention, usually at the expense of several other kids who are not behaving in such a manner, thus setting an example for everyone. The system is designed to produce workers/consumers who do not challenge the system, who do not stand up for themselves, who do not think for themselves. Just look around at the products of the system.

Captain MidnightCaptain Midnightover 14 years ago
Thanks

Working with children of all ages is difficult. I tuaght at a high school last year and at an elementary school this year, and at a camp in between.

My $.02 worth is that educators (and parents, and parents who are educators) should not let any child be abused in any way. I can remember lots of teachers yelling at the whole class, or me in general, at full lung power. I don't think it worked. Depriving students of privileges seems to help some, but it doesn't work for everybody. The high school where I worked at recently resorted to complete gender segregation of the classrooms. I wasn't really thrilled about that either -- no school where I went had gone that far.

This is a case where people who claim to take the moral high ground (such as many Obama supporters) become very restrictive and harsh, initiating "political correctness" and creating the lure of the forbidden. I pick on the political left a lot because a lot of decent people there advocate humiliating or bullying in various ways to "expose hypocrisy," "punish flip-floppers," "do reality checks," and so on. But the consequence is to make people with peccadilloes feel like dirt and sometimes spur angry reactions. Former President Jimmy Carter heads the list in that category. Not too far away are those people who believe homophobia is a major sin. Or Tiger Woods' detractors (as of December 2009) for his seeming to tom-cat around. Sure, that is bad behavior in his part, but so his laying into the back of his car window with a 3-iron, as his wife admitted to (though not saying her motivation, which apparently was rage). I've heard a few stories saying that she should have used the golf club on his testicles, or something equivalent. Sounds pretty draconian, doesn't it? Not in the world we live in right now.

It's tough to take a moral stance without being assailed. I do think that zero tolerance and other harsh methods are bad ways to show your moral stance.

MATTY_PMATTY_Pover 12 years ago
*Think*

I think I need to publish this. My dear Kitt - Your eloquence and use of a proper (expansive) vocabulary to express a very deep issue in western society.

As a product of this damaging system, I can tell you now you are doing the right thing. After years of neglect and harassment, which often ended up with me in trouble for trying to fight back, I endured a decade of torment. Teachers would do nothing about any reports I had submitted, for we live in a society of mob rule. There is Zero Tolerance - that is, Zero Tolerance to any incidents, reports of incidents, or follow up action because of incidents. No help was given and I was suspended for pushing, yes a tiny shove - not even that hard; PUSHING another student away from me. Fighting off bullies must be wrong... right? When I was assaulted for no reason (his friend told him to do it), despite my martial arts training, I DID NOT hit back - for fear I would hurt the guy. I didn't want to get into trouble again - they said they suspend me etc. which would mean I would fail.

With that, I ended up in hospital.

When I finally did act out - years later - wandering around out of bounds - everyone wandered why. When I re-iterated my situation, constant harassment, exclusion, stress and neglect, all parties immediately decided to remove me from the school. The irony? this was the middle of year 12. (last year of Senior High)

So after a decade of what could easily be called torture, someone finally listened. Thanks guys, my problems are all totally over. *sarcasm much*

In conclusion - you are RIGHT. don't let people tell you different. If your kid tells you something's wrong - do something. When you go to parent - teacher interviews or whatever, ask if there's any harassment. If they say 'no' tell them to get glasses. And remove your child.

Teach your child the right way - and to fight back if they're attacked. To NOT ACCEPT being constantly harassed, bullied and pushed around. It's not right; and kids don't have that much of a voice; so their parents need to be ready to champion them. To tell schools that it's not right to punish a victim. It's not right to let bullies get away with it.

The effect of this can be far reaching and very damaging. If I didn't have an IQ high enough for Mensa, I would be a complete failure on the streets right now, not struggling through university. I should be breezing through with two degrees right now, heading for masters or my PH.D.

Zero Tolerance means Zero Action.

P.S.

For all of those who think "if he'd said something..." truth is; I did. Just to clear any doubts...

I'm sorry I wasn't always the only 'victim', I totally picked a fight with those three bigger guys. I'm sorry that I didn't make it clearer 20v1 is unfair. I'm sorry I didn't scream and rave until you took notice. I'm sorry I didn't write down, every day, every single insult, every single incident and every single little thing. Finally, i'm sorry no-one cares until it's too late.

I can only hope that my story will help at least one other child escape from the horror that can be school when no-one listens.

VoluptuousValkyrieVoluptuousValkyriealmost 12 years ago
I agree, also. . .

One thing that zero tolerance for violence is doing is discouraging boys from actually becoming friends. All the men I know who have a best friend have almost the same story for how they became friends:

1. Either they didn't like each other or they both wanted the same toy/girl/etc.

2. They got into a physical altercation where either the little guy beat the crap out of the big guy or they found they were an even match.

3. Since then they have been best buddies.

Also, our modern day military trainers have discovered that many recruits in Basic Training have never been hit or hit another person, and they are surprised when it hurts! They have never learned that it hurts your fist when you punch someone!

There is a really cool TED talk on Boys and the Education system that is semi-related to this: http://www.ted.com/talks/ali_carr_chellman_gaming_to_re_engage_boys_in_learning.html

talldarkfellowtalldarkfellowover 10 years ago
Lawsuits Create This Craziness.

With most parents ready to sue when their "precious" is hit on the playground, accused bully or not, the first thing their lawyers are going to ask a teacher, administrator or board president is "doesn't your school have a POLICY to prevent this kind of terrible thing from happening?!" And if they don't have a detailed tome, written to conform to a psychological theory (as you should know) that ALL violence is unacceptable at all times, some judge or jury is likely to award the parents lots of cash, or at least the school has to shell out a substantial amount to keep the lawyers employed for a long time. So the lawyers advise creating a completely academically vetted policy which looks wonderful on paper and in court; never mind it's as unworkable as cold fusion in the real world.

Unless you are going to give the schools and teachers sovereign immunity against these lawsuits and trust them to sort out who's the bully and who's the victim, self-preservation is going to drive this process for the schools.

Lastly, please don't take up a new career in international relations. Your comments comparing military actions to kill terrorists and destroy their bases of operation to keeping order in a primary school were a little juvenile. School bullies and organized mass murdering zealots are slightly different propositions. And I doubt that the thousands of those zealots we've captured or killed (including Osama Bin Laden) constitute a vain effort.

AnonymousAnonymousover 7 years ago
Help Your Son!

I could not agree more with your points Selena. The truth of the matter this has been going on SINCE BEFORE YOU WERE BORN!

I was taken out by another older boy under the teacher's eye and taken out to a football field during recess and beaten up by him and 4 other boys. I did not get back at all of them but I did find one who was at the pool, I had just completed swimming lessons and was pretty adept at it. I looked the boy over who started for the mid-depth of the pool. He finally recognized me and after informing him that one could drown even in the shallow end.

The best one was of a widowed woman with six children. She sent them all to the martial arts of their choice.

One day she got summoned to her son's principal's office. Her son, a 6th Grader, was charged with laying in wait and beating up 5 7th & 8th Grader boys.

What was said was that he had stolen a belt (his name was on it) and that he jumped the five bigger boys. It must nearly have been true. Two of the older boys had broken arms, one had cracked ribs, one sported a beautiful black eye, The only untouched boy was the one who ran away!

After dismissing the 10 affronted parents and their 5 sons, the principal broke out laughing! He did ask her about her kids martial arts training! Good stuff!

notredame43notredame43about 5 years ago
i as a kid dealt with this

I didnt swing first but after i had enough i popped em a few shots and down to the office it was. i got suspended 3 times for getting in fights then never again because the bully's got the point i wasnt going to take their shit and my dad laid it out. My kid isnt here to be a punching bag period. He told the Prinicipal in Jr high to go live in the real world and not be in schools. Point blank if you dont stand up for yourself no one else will and the bullies keep coming. When you go into the workplace etc you best be ready to stand up for yourself in other ways otherwise you will get walked all over.

inka2222inka22223 months ago

Welcome to the future, where the far left wing marxists of Gramscian postmodernist variety ideologically married brain dead overdrugged hippes, and that marriage won the Western society. They hate violence (especially of self defense kind), but ONLY until and unless it's perpetrated by or on behalf of so-called "oppressed" (or themselves, because most of them pretend they are oppressed one way or another).

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