All Comments on 'On Open Marriage and Swinging'

I never got a chance to read milfwife's story or the comments it generated, but I have seen posts similar to the ones you quoted here before, and I don't think I've ever seen any studies quoted, either.



Anything to do with challenging people's thoughts about the traditional context in which they were taught to view sex gets many of them fearful and antagonistic. It's why people were enticed to vote for Proposition 8 in California, and yet, when the case finally got to the US Supreme Court, the petitioners were told they had no standing to even bring the case. They stated that gay marriage would hurt their own marriages and their children's view of sex, so therefore it shouldn't be legal. But when asked to cite evidence of the damage it would bring, they could quote none. Because they could not prove that they would be damaged, their case was thrown out. They just didn't like their world view being challenged, regardless of whether or not the existence of gay marriage would affect them in any way. 



Loving Wives is a particularly tough category, mixing, as it does, swinging wives or cuckoldresses with cheating wives. Many people in this category suffer the burden of having been hurt by cheating spouses and cannot begin to imagine letting their spouse have sex with anyone else, because they can only think of it as harkening back to the emotional pain that cheating caused them. Without separating the two groups, there will always be a natural conflict, but I've always assumed the site's owners love the attention it brings. 



When marriage was conceived, people lived half as long as they do now. It is very hard to be everything another person needs for 40-60 years. Allowing for couples to fulfill their needs in non-traditional ways will actually encourage the survival of marriage. The traditional marriage that existed one hundred years ago would be abhorrent to most of us, nowadays, as the husband owned everything--his wife, his children, and all the property. If a wife was abused and unhappy, he might give her a divorce, but she would leave with nothing, and that meant he kept the children, as well. Two generations ago, it offended mens' egos if their wives worked outside the home; now, a second income is viewed as necessary to a successful family, not to mention the fulfillment of a wife's talents as an individual. Marriage has changed a lot since the Industrial Revolution, and will continue to change, if it is to survive. One thing that will probably always exist, unless our species changes a lot, is the need most people in the world have for someone to walk by their side through life.



Society now doesn't blink if a couple has premarital sex or lives together before marriage, but any hint of an "alternative lifestyle" still gets tongues wagging. As more of us are realizing that our gay neighbors are basically just like us, maybe we will realize that people who practice swinging, cuckoldry, or BDSM or just like us, too. As one of the female complainants in "The Case Against 8" said, she had no time to dwell on herself as being in a gay marriage, because she was too busy working, managing a household, and raising children. Do I run around thinking about myself as being in a heterosexual marriage? No, as most of us in extraordinarily happy marriages do, whether gay or straight, I'm just damned grateful for my partner in life. Life can be tough, and sex is a small part of life, but it is obviously one of the important elements that keep couples together. Kudos to any couples that make each other happy, whatever way they do it, as far as I'm concerned.

My wife and I enjoyed an open marriage, until it ended with her death from lung cancer, some 53 years later....just sayin'

Sd far as I'm concerned, adultery is always cheating.

You make a lot of great points here.

" It is about loving your partner enough to give him/her an experience that you cannot provide."

My wife and I have been getting together with another male on occasion for the last six years. There is nothing I enjoy more than to watch her have two or three explosive orgasms in a row, no matter which one of us is the cause. It's the best sex ever, and we have had a very solid relationship all the way through. And now, she is always "in the mood".

Thank you for the good read.

I think you fail at objectivity by stating as "fact" that monogamous marriages are not as strong as open marriages. Go back and read your own words as objectively as you can. Swans mate for life, a wonderful and universally loved concept. This does not mean they hook up with other swans with their mate's approval. It means what it says. Humans mate for life too, at least us lucky ones. There is no stronger relationship on earth than the truly faithful marriage.

Perhaps you're just married to the wrong person. If you can't interest your mate in having sexual relations with you, maybe you're married to the wrong person. I think most people know that having sex with another person outside your marriage is wrong. That's why people don't go around advertising that they are "swingers". They know they're cheating. Don't want to be monogamous? Don't get married. Don't love your spouse anymore? Get divorced. Your example of one study done in 2000 has little or no value. Thousands of studies get done all the time on any subject you can imagine. Show me one that says swingers are doing better than the average divorce rate in this Country and I'll find another that shows those involved get divorced more often. Or get dead. (Angry spouses and all that). Why you felt this was a worthwhile article to post on an erotic website is beyond me. I guess it takes all kinds. This was a waste of space.

I'm too young to get married right now. I've read about this lifestyle and have even met two of such wonderful couples in my life (no, they don't go around asking people to join their bed).

They are very much like us normal people and I wouldn't have guessed their polygamous situation if I hadn't enquired about it discreetly.

This one is to the anons before me:

Don't practise swinging if you are particularly unhappy or jealous with it. No one is forcing you to do it.

BUT...

DO NOT preach your views of self-righteousness on other people. If the anyone has a problem with swinging them they're free to avoid it.

Like the anonymous before me, I hate such species of people who think that they're the salt of Earth itself.

Nice and enlightening essay on the topic.

TSB

Fucking Anon (probably 12 years old)

How stupid can you get. If you read the piece it answered every objection you just made all over again. Are you on autopilot that you can't read and learn.

Yes there was only one study referred to. There are LOTS OF THEM that say exactly the same thing. Swingers are happier, getting more sex, communicate better and divorce rates are significantly lower than the general population. You say they get divorced well show us one study that agrees. I've seen several that would disagree with you.

Marry someone else? Why would I marry someone I love less, trust less and communicate more poorly with?

Your beliefs are flawed beyond reason when you preach about something without actually learning what you're talking about.

To the author good article I'll bookmark it for reference when I run into the idiot anons that inhabit this genre.

You jump right out at the beginning and CLEARLY say that you don't view swinging as normal, or "superior" to the archetypical monogamous marriage. You also state several times that this alternative lifestyle choice ISN'T for everyone. In fact, you caution that MOST marriages couldn't survive it, because people just don't understand the risks involved, and possess the communication skills required to be successful in an open marriage.

Here's what I really loved about your argument:

Considering the high divorce rate for ALL marriages across the board, the same reasons exist whether or not the couple was monogamous, open, gay, racially minority, rich or poor. So simple logic yes, but accurate. If a couple finds a flaw, and can't stay married, the notion of "irreconcilable differences" exists- period! Whatever the philosophical nature of the difference is, the marriage arrives at the same result.

A couple who chose an open marriage as a last ditch effort to repair a bad marriage are just as doomed to failure as a monogamous couple who are separated for long periods of time because of a job. A gay marriage where the couple disagrees about child-rearing, and breaks up, is the same as mixed race couple who divorce about money. The things that identify them as different don't affect what they have in common. As some point, when a married couple cease to agree on a functioning way to stay together and go forward, the divorce is the result. I really think people forget this, as they try to play some sort of blame game. It must have been the open marriage that doomed them to failure, right? WRONG! It is because they didn't set rules, or if they did, didn't follow them. OR, one or both people made the age old mistake of taking their spouse for granted, and forgot to put them first, succumbing instead to selfish, and destructive behaviors. That last scenario plays out in relationships ALL the time (resulting in divorce) and no one specific demographic can claim to "own" the lion's share of the responsibility for influencing selfish, immature behavior.

The biggest complaint I have about your essay, is that it doesn't address the issue that I personally have with the open marriage concept. I have made a few comments here and there on stories, but have never found one that addresses this issue.

I have never understood the claim that somehow having sex (OK the difference of sex vs. love is just assumed here for the purpose of this argument) with some one else can actually INCREASE the love and feelings you have for your spouse. Even the open-minded participant must agree, that what she "loves" is that he allowed her the freedom to fuck someone else. Ok, many stories tout the virtues of "make-up" sex, or "reclamation" sex. I can visualize that being powerful. However, just as devoted monogamous sex can get boring after 20 years, so must the "make-up" sex? If any long term sexual act is practiced over and over again, and "newness" IS the very spice the open marriage participants are looking for, how could reconnecting with the spouse, not ALSO get old? Yes, I have heard it before. It is "just sex" with others, but "making love" with the spouse. I still have a hard time seeing how that love isn't diminished, because what makes it unique after many/any other partners have experienced the same thing? But you say the others don't get to experience the "love"?! What are you really doing different when fucking, that you are or are not doing when making love? Is it the way you look in their eyes? Is it the electricity of desire? Is it a abstract feeling of safety and security? I know what the answer is for me, but not nearly enough people can actually describe just what marks the difference between the two. It might be a lost cause, but trying to persuade commenters NOT to rail against open marriage situations, isn't going to happen when so many stories feature unlikable characters who have no idea what real love is, and are too blind to see all of the potential dangers in what are usually described as destructive scenarios, to even an objective reader.

I will admit to a reading a few (JUST a few) stories that feature an open marriage lifestyle that actually seems to work. But in those stories, specific rules were in place. Time frames were short (which is to say, that after a certain period, the swinging activity ceased). And YES, the most important ingredient was honest communication. If you have a story example that features a long term, continuous open marriage, that was successful (i.e. best case scenario), I'd be interested to read it. But I wonder, does it explain how sex with others brings the two spouses closer? Usually, it only seems to focus on increased sexual activity, and rarely focuses on the real emotions involved, or intelligent and mature expressions of real love.

See, the problem that I have, and I think most do, is that DEVOTION is usually a big part of being able to express real love. By its very definition, an open marriage has trivialized that spirit of devotion. No she may never leave him, but THAT isn't the definition of being devoted. Even if she always chooses him first, over any other lover, even if she is careful not to hurt his feelings at any time, the hot-wife can never look in the mirror and claim she is devoted only to one man. At some level, that just HAS to weaken the love that these spouses share. May be I just don't understand, granted, but that is what I wish your essay helped to explain better. May be you will follow up with a more complete discussion of the feelings and emotions encountered. Sure, I imagine that it is and always will be different for everybody, but there MUST be some emotional commonality shared amongst successful swingers. If the prime question that your essay was set to answer was "how and why do these couples stay married"?

I'm not sure you answered it fully. That said, it was still a start down the path of a thought provoking topic. Thanks!

Thanks very much for your thoughtful comments. You asked how having sex with someone else can increase the love/feelings you have for your spouse, and my answer would be: it doesn't.

There is an old saying (and Sting song) that goes: "If you love someone, set them free." The rest of that saying (which isn't often repeated) states: "If they come back, they're yours; if they don't, they never were."

When you set your spouse "free", you take a risk that he/she won't return. As I stated in my essay, however, that risk is similar to leaping from an airplane with a parachute, in that it isn't really a risk -- it just feels like it. If you trust someone enough to set them free, the odds are pretty good that the person will return.

So, to answer your question, when you set someone free and he/she returns, your feelings for that person can often be reaffirmed, which results in an emotional high. It's like discovering all over again that you are loved.

Similarly, when you are set free by your spouse, and you return to him/her, your feelings for that spouse are also reaffirmed, because you realize that he/she loves and trusts you so much, he/she was willing to take that risk.

Now, you also asked whether that reaffirmation becomes "old" after awhile, and the answer is: of course. And if that were the only reason for opening your marriage or swinging, then there would be little incentive to do it over a long period of time.

My point was that, from a hormonal standpoint, something seems to happen to women when they are with a new man. Their sexiness and desirability are reaffirmed and rediscovered, and their libido increases. When that happens, not only does it benefit the new men they are with, but their husbands as well. At least, that is what I have learned through my own experience -- and through those I know who dabble in "the lifestyle."

I enjoyed this essay immensely even though I partly disagree with it. I can't quote any studies that show that open marriages end in divorce more than monogamous ones. I simply don't know. But I do agree that it isn't for everyone. I do have one point of contention with this essay.

I seems to imply that open marriages are more honest and communicate better than monogamous ones. It also seems to have a bias toward the belief that people involved in them to be happier than monogamous. I would respectfully disagree.

I will say that your essay has "opened" my eyes as to how it can be beneficial to SOME people. I just don't feel that people in open marriages have a deeper commitment than closed ones. I think it is a different kind of commitment. Not better or worse, but built on a different foundation.

One of my best qualities is that I don't judge. My favorite saying is that this universe is too big for my point of view to be the only right one. I admire the courage that it takes to stand by a point of view that isn't popular. I wish you the best and thank you for an enlightening essay.

Actually it's outstanding, well written and well argued. I never thought I'd read something this knowledgeable on this site.

Your essay was extremely well thought out and profound! Thanks for clearing up many of the misconceptions and stereotypes and briefly explaining, "the lifestyle".

Reason will never trump emotion, never has, but your essay is certainly worth the read. I'm often shocked by responses to stories and all that comes to my mind is: "Dude it's fiction. Get a life. Don't like the subject? Don't read it."

Though I know an open/swinger type relationship isn't for me, this was very informative about the lifestyle. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. It was well thought out and executed beautifully. You certainly have a way with words.

Good essay. First time around it was for being young and very sexual and enjoying it.

Now it would be to give my wife something that I can't.

There are so many varibles you only touched the very tip of a few, and your explainations are bias because of your own lifestyle.........lol

bill.....

Let me sum it up - the author is a decadent emotionally crippled nihilist who never experienced true and deep love, has no values, and loves it. But one thing is right: Your girl is better off with other men.

I completely agree with the author, his sex life (and that of his wife) is their business. Nobody knows what goes on in a marriage except those two people involved in it, much as some might like to think otherwise going by some of the comments here.

Personally, swinging is not for me. When I commit to someone, I commit totally and I expect them to commit to me in all respects, including sexual fidelity. I (unlike Swingerjoe) cannot separate sex from emotion and therefore an open relationship would not be for me. It simply wouldn't work. That fact that I have been cheated on twice in my life may or may not have a bearing on my point of view, but I can honestly say that I have never looked outside a committed relationship for sex, even when it has been offered on a plate.

Having said that, it CLEARLY works for him and his good lady, so I say more power to you both.

I don't judge. It's not my place to decide how anyone else conducts themselves within their personal lives... And even if it were my place to have an opinion, I would still keep my fucking mouth shut.

Your story groupings are inaccurate and bias, they should be across the board of tens of thousands of anybodies. There should be no subgroups.....in any study group if you pick any field of interest it should be people who were in that group and not, also why the are not in it, and why they may have left it.....thus you did not cover or they did not cover everything no matter what great institution insists in it its accuracies.......bill

On top of the very real benefits we've experienced directly or indirectly from swinging (enhanced communication, deeper trust, and becoming team players on a very serious level), the lifestyle has obviously enhanced our life sexually. If you can admit that you have no desire to have sex with a woman while your wife is simultaneously giving her oral sex, then great, the lifestyle isn't for you. Why do you care if it does it for us though?

You not only correct in your assessment of alternate lifestyles. We are currently in an open relationship that is evolving as we do as people. No two relationships are alike. Each person brings something new to the table. The biggest misunderstanding is that open marriage is all about sex. That is something generated by morons. Open marriage is about being open. Not hiding your desires from your partner. It is about honesty, trust, and total commitment.

Backing up a bit, we were married ten years and although we loved each other desperately, we both had secret affairs that left us feeling broken confused and angry. Then after some lifestyle therapy we learned to communicate with each other and that deliver it or not included listening. We were devastated by the infidelity because we cared deeply for each other. And through that realized love and sex are not the same. Sex with someone you love is truly amazing but to place the responsibility of your satisfaction totally on your partner is eventually cause resentment.

Open marriage is about honesty and trust. Sex comes later. A metamorphoses of sorts has come about in our relationship. A marriage is a living entity, constantly changing. It's fluid and not encased in stone. We were scarred and extremely cautious starting out and defining our parameters. I remember the fear and anticipation the first time my wife took a lover. I was so fearful I'd lose her but it ended up one of the best experiences in our lives. I ended up having more joy in her pleasure than I can express. We had the best love-making the following weeks ever. I found my natural role was a Wittol. Whereas, I have had lovers, they are infrequent. My wife has a huge sex drive that both of us would be frustrated trying to have me satisfy. So I do, with the help of a few friends.

Thanks for this post.

The cuckies are having a love feast. Sick mother fuckers. Can't take care of momma so they have to pimp her out to others. Tell the fucking truth, all he rationalization is just blowing smoke up somebodies ass.

Nothing wrong with Polygamy. Nothing wrong with Monogamy. I agree on the commitment part, but that would differ on how each couple defines comittment. In my opinion, marriage is complete commitment to ONE person. Body, mind and soul. If your busy living a life with someone else inbetween the cracks or fucking someoneelse instead of spending time with that spouse (no matter how much you've "communicated").. thats not really FULL committment. Call the kettle black. Nothing wrong with different tea pots. But decorative porcelain is different than tungsten steel. Call polygamy for what it is: convenient. Not commitment. Commitment in marriage isn't for everybody and it's sanctity is unmatched. Something to be admired. After all, if you communicate well and are comitted, then why would it be so hard to have a GOOD sex life?

You get it. Thank you for your insights.

I read your comment as it appeared in the feedback portal. I did not read Joe's essay but you comment was quite powerful and deserves affirmation.

works both ways fellow-don't preach to me the merit of swinging, may work for you but not for me

Let's say you enjoy bowling, but your spouse doesn't. If you join a bowling league and spend time bowling that you could've spent at home with your spouse, have you broken your commitment?

Commitment doesn't mean spending every waking moment together. It means committing yourself -- for life -- to loving your spouse unconditionally, providing him/her with comfort and friendship for life, sharing life events, raising children together, forming a financial and legal bond, etc.. If you join a bowling league, how does that change any of that?

If joining a bowling league is okay with you, then you're merely hung up on sex like the vast majority of the US.

Your comparission is inconsistent.

Let me ask you Joe... is swinging something that your children and family can join in, like bowling? Does swinging pay the bills or allow you to take the time to care for your responsabilities? Most ofen it does not. Does it perhaps stop you from being present in the moment not just with family.. but your partner? In that moment of extacy are you thinking of her or someone else? More often then not, our partners are the ones who help us coordinate all this together. If your not helping, then your in the way. It is my opinion that that is neglectful and even abusive behaviour. Our spouses deserve much better treatment than being a slave to "convenience". Especially when they can come home and get much better in most cases because you have come to know eachother. Marriage most certainly means different things to different people, but then you better make sure your definitions are the same. And dont dare think of qualifying swinging convenience the same as people who work through their issues with out" checking out". One is easy, one is work.

Furthermore I find your study incongruent. It is a bit self supporting, since the sample group was already selected byhe predisposition of swinging. Of corse they would say it made their life better because its what theyWANT to do. Im more curious about what a REAL sample demographic would say about their experience.

I'll continue my analogy, then, by asking the same questions of you and your hypothetical bowling league.

Does bowling pay the bills or allow you to care for your responsibilities? Does it stop you from being present in the moment with your family and partner? In that moment of ecstasy when you nail that perfect strike, are you thinking of bowling or your spouse?

Again, regardless of whether it's bowling or sex, you're engaged in an activity that has nothing to do with your spouse. One of the many "secrets" of a lasting marriage is that each spouse engages in some solo activity away from the other spouse, as it's beneficial to maintain some sense of individuality and independence.

It isn't neglectful or abusive to take some time to partake in an activity you enjoy that is separate from your spouse and family -- as long as your spouse is aware of the activity and approves of it, of course. I would never think of asking my wife to quit her career, for example, because she enjoys it. I'm happy that she's happy, and I'm secure enough to know that we'll have plenty of time to share together outside of working hours. I don't need to be by her side every minute of the day.

I'm also curious to see a real in-depth and impartial study on different types of marriages. For whatever reason, it seems there hasn't been much research on that topic, as I was only able to find that one study I mentioned in the article. Given the financial and social benefits of marriage, you would think that someone would study these issues. Sadly, it seems that marriage is dying a slow and painful death, and no one seems to care.

The question in point is not about cheating. Of corse if two people are agreed and ipen, that is honest.

The question in point is integrity. Is what you do, truely comitted?

Of corse swingers, can be moral, loving, comittrd to a degree. But how much really?

Let me continue the explanation. Sex is intimate. Do you or do you not think it would be more comitted to fuck your wife the way she wants or your swinger the way she wants? How about both i hear you say.. yes you can do both. But while your with one... youre missing out on the other. Even if you have an orgy, if your focus is on someone else, its not on the other

Again, call the kettle black

I have missed your point, yes, because it seems we have different definitions of the word "commitment." I believe commitment means pledging your unconditional love to another person indefinitely and without question, enduring hardships together, enjoying the good times together, being brutally honest with each other, etc.. You seem focused on the sex. Yes, sex is an important part of marriage, but it's hardly the only part.

Is it possible to maintain a healthy sex life with more than one person? What does one sexual relationship have to do with the other? Why couldn't a person simultaneously enjoy a happy and raunchy sexual relationship with more than one person? Sex isn't a zero-sum activity any more than love is.

Nor does sex -- itself -- have any negative consequences in a relationship (assuming everyone involved is aware it's happening and approves of it.) What if an extramarital sexual encounter actually enhances a married couple's sex life? What if one or both spouses actually enjoy sharing each other with other people? How would that have any effect on the integrity and commitment of their bond?

What works for you doesn't necessarily work for others, and vice versa. As I wrote at the very beginning of this piece, I'm not advocating any type of marital arrangement over any other. The goal of this article was to clear up the misconceptions that people have with swinging and open marriage. It was not meant to be an attack on traditional marriage by any means.

Human behaviour is fascinating. One only has to skim the Fetish story titles in Literotica to see how wide the thoughts (and perhaps the behaviours) of people can be in the sexual area.

I have no doubt that people such as LadyCharly are representing the norm in their attitudes to married behaviours. But, as my old statistics lecturer used to say "A man can drown in a creek with an average depth of half an inch." Some unusual things can happen out at the ends of the bell curve.

It is not up to Joe to demonstrate that there are large numbers of people who are happily behaving in ways that are not the norm, all he has to do is show that it is possible. Many of those who attack Joe for his viewpoint don't want to believe that it is.

Perhaps it isn't possible for them, but that doesn't mean that nobody can happily behave in the ways Joe discusses.

Lue

Again, I never said people are unhappy out of norm.

Nor do I consider mutual, honest swinging wrong or cheating.

The statement I made was about the integrity of commitment.

In fact, as a sub to my exhusband who fucked women in front of me, I learned I wanted it to be me. And I'm an Alpha Female.

People like Leudon must assume people who prefer tradition don't have experience in their own self discovery. Wrong.

What I did emphasize that it simply splits your time.. with other people and situations. That can, have a negative affect on the integrity of commitment. But not always, as you stated Joe.

My first post was never meant to condemn you. It was simply to point out the inconsistencies of people who tend to minimize the scope of swinging and that its just sex. Indeed , love is more than that and I would also agree it is unconditional, being present as much as possible, fulfilling every intimate moment together to a truely deeper level. For better or worse. That may sound suffocating to some, to others-- meerly dedication.

Thank you for your conversation

The common ground in what you and Joe have been discussing seems to me to far exceed the points of difference. It's not hard to find examples of behaviour that illustrate the differences, but there is also that broad ground of overlap.

You suggest that "People like Leudon must assume people who prefer tradition don't have experience in their own self discovery. Wrong." Indeed, if I did assume that I would be wrong. Like every other human characteristic, self-awareness is distributed over a broad bell curve.

It's the differences that make people interesting. Life would be dull if we were all the same. Stories would be dull if they were always about 'ordinary' people. I have quoted Clyde Kluckhohn a couple of times before in comments about stories:

Every man is, to some extent

Like every other man

Like some other men

Like no other man.

It's the stories about people who are like 'no other man' that I find most interesting. But there are some behaviours that are so far from my norm that I can't bring myself to read stories about them. (For example, I'll never read a story about parent-child incest.) You say that you are sub. I can't empathise with that, but I can read those stories with considerable interest. Live and learn.

Lue

Ok , confession time. I only read this after reading the dust up between Iron Dragon and Swingerjoe in the comments of a LW story , and the adamant reaction that Iron Dragon showed upon finding that Swingerjoe had used his Literotica name ( that's a whole other story how we come upon our "handles" for this site) in an essay that purports to explain the swinging lifestyle. I mean who could not help looking at this obvious source of friction between two authors who are from the different " Clans" that make up the LW genre as it is today !

So swingerjoe goes through his litany of reasons why the alternate married lifestyle is , in his case, superior to the traditional monogamous one. I for one am of the belief that two consenting adults can do as they please behind the privacy of their bedroom doors and you'll never hear me say otherwise. But (you could just feel the but coming , couldn't you) , even though SJ in this article says that he doesn't prescribe open marriages for everyone , I kind of got the vibe that deep down , he feels as though he feels them to be evolutionary superior . As if the monogamous ones are outdated and only for the unenlightened of society . I don't want to put words in his mouth , but this was the feeling I got ( could be wrong).

As for the stats he gives , one study does not a truth make ! ( said that in my yoda voice in my head , lol). There are so many ways that a single study can be skewed to have a certain outcome that the authors of the study want , that it is statistically invalid. Do you want the FDA approving medical drugs and procedures on the findings of a single study ?

Now I said in the heading that there were two reasons for reading this essay. The second reason being that I have never read anything that SJ has posted , because the name alone tells me his preferred storylines , and that infers that I wouldn't enjoy the work ( yes I'm from the other Clan in this genre). I have no reason to throw cold water on anyone else's proclivities , or on their likes or dislikes when it comes to this subject . But it seems that SJ purposely comments on LW stories that are outside of his obvious pleasure zone. I do not understand his reason for this , unless it is to foment discontent for that sides readership. I maybe wrong about his reason for doing that , and frankly I hope that I am.

My own personal feelings about the whole open marriage debate are kind of simple , if you want and need that kind of relationship , have at it . It would be much simpler , IMHO , to not even marry in the first place and just cohabitate together since the civil union and Common Law rules of each state would already cover the legalities of the couple and not infringe upon the institution of Marriage, which the Alternative lifestyles seems to give the middle finger to . But , that's only my opinion for what it's worth.

And as far as scoring this, I believe that I'll treat it as SJ does his LW stories and just pretend that the scoring is turned off.

Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I appreciate the time it took for you to leave it.

Re. Iron Dragon, let's say that I am a journalist and I am covering a controversial political candidate. One day, I happen to encounter that candidate at a bar, late at night, completely unexpected. He has a few drinks and tells me some things that would make for a terrific story -- but off the record.

If I were to write a column that quoted that politician from our private conversation, that would be not only unethical, but potentially illegal (depending on the interpretation of libel laws wherever this occurred.)

If that same candidate uttered the same remarks during a press conference (or on Twitter or in a press release or any number of other ways a candidate uses to express himself/herself on a public forum these days), however, not only would it be completely ethical to quote that politician word-for-word in my next story, but I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't.

When Iron Dragon posted his comment on a public forum on a website that is freely viewed by everyone on the planet with an internet connection (and a perverted inclination to visit a site like this), he waived his right to be outraged by having his comments reprinted. I didn't misquote him, I didn't desparage his quote, and I paid him no disrespect; therefore, I have no apologies whatsoever.

Re. alternative marriages, I have stated and re-stated and re-re-stated countless times, both within and outside of this article that I don't consider open marriages to be superior to traditional marriages...and yet folks like you insist upon putting words in my mouth, because you believe you know what I think better than I do.

That said, the tradition of marriage is dying. No one can deny that. Young people are opting not to marry more often than not. If they do marry, they do so at a much older age. If they have children, it is either very late in life (in which case, they may have one -- or at most, two -- children) or they have children out of wedlock. The very word "marriage" has been under attack to the point where it has lost all meaning.

The result has been predictably catastrophic. More children are born to single mothers than at any other time in human history. Birth rates have declined in the US, Europe, and Japan, to the point where massive immigration is necessary in order to maintain our various welfare states and entitlement programs. Children born in single-parent households have been found to commit crimes at a higher rate, graduate high school at a lower rate, and generate far less income over the course of their lives than children raised in two-parent households. The economic benefits to society, as a whole, are immeasurable.

One of the reasons given by younger people for their opposition to marriage is the notion that marriage must be monogamous. Perhaps if we (as a society) loosened the restrictions and promoted commitment over monogamy, we would encourage more marriages. Would it be better for all of society to have more marriages and less monogamy? Or fewer marriages and more monogamy? Which is more important: two people committed to each other for life, or two people committed to not fucking anyone else but each other for life?

Re. the study I cited in this essay, I freely admit (and have done so repeatedly) that it's a flawed study and a small sample size. The problem is that no one else seems to have studied the issue of open marriages. I looked. I couldn't find any other research on this topic. If anyone can find a similar study, I welcome your input. My point is that all of the people who leave negative comments about open marriages leading to divorce and disaster are just as clueless as the rest of us.

Re. my username, it is my greatest (and possibly only) regret about joining this site. I am terrible at naming things (which is why my wife has named all of our children.) I came up with "swingerjoe" on a whim, believing it would be interpreted as a double entendre. (I play baseball...and swing a bat.) Instead, readers see that name and make all kinds of assumptions about me -- as you have done on many occasions, Ckrcppr.

Many of my earlier stories were about swinging. There were several stories I felt that had to be told for posterity's sake. After that, for more than a year, I have written stories that are based on real-life experiences, but also include quite a bit of imagination. I pride myself on being an unpredictable storyteller, so if you think that all of my stories involve "happy swingers", you're missing out.

The conversations and debates can, on occasion, be more informative and entertaining than the stories. When Crkcppr says "I only read this after reading the dust up between Iron Dragon and Swingerjoe in the comments of a LW story" my thoughts are 'I'm glad you did and welcome to this conversation'.

But it is important if we're going to have a decent conversation that each participant ensures they understand what others are saying. Crkcppr's statement "So swingerjoe goes through his litany of reasons why the alternate married lifestyle is , in his case, superior to the traditional monogamous one." I believe is a mis-reading of everything I have ever seen SwingerJoe say. (And I am one who tends to read and agree with most of the things he does say.)

I think what he says can be summed up in 'To each his or her own'. If you're happy with a monogamous marriage and can make it work well for you and your spouse, that's great. If you prefer some alternative to the current norm and can make it work well for you and whomever else is involved, that's great too.

I get involved in disputes with those I call the Moral Brigade who say there is a right and a wrong and everything other than monogamous marriage is wrong. It's not only wrong for them, but it's also wrong for me and for everybody else.

Crkcppr was much more moderate. To quote Crkcppr again "if you want and need that kind of relationship , have at it." That sounds like disapproval, which is fine, but not a statement of 'it is WRONG and you MUST NOT' which is what we get from the Moral Brigade.

Lue

You stated that having an open marriage negated infidelity and communication as reasons for problems in a relationship. This is absolutely not true. I do not engage in such a relationship, but I have known people who do. When a partner engages in relations without knowledge or consent of their partner it is infidelity, and it happens in open relationships as well as conventional ones.

Good point. I actually wrote a story on that very situation, called "Opening Up."

There are basically two main categories of reasons why a married person (in a monogamous relationship) would cheat on his/her partner:

1) Dissatisfaction with the marriage, unhappiness, boredom, feelings of inadequacy, etc. Basically, there are problems with the marriage.

2) Sexual gratification, either spontaneous or prolonged desire.

If a spouse falls into the first category, the marriage is doomed regardless of whether it is open or not. My original statement in this essay referred only to the second category. Presumably, a spouse in that second category would act on his/her impulses only with permission/knowledge of the other spouse.

Having an open marriage certainly doesn't preclude anyone from having a dissatisfying marriage. Some marriages will be dissatisfying regardless of the agreed-upon arrangement.

Thanks for your thoughtful comment.

cuck shit.

Unless I misunderstood "In most cases, there is nothing a husband can do to elevate his wife's libido. " seriously? Married 31 years...lets get a reality check and change the conversation. Open communication, change of mind set from what you're taught vs who you are and what marriage is and never should be. The biggest issue about marriage is who people are before marriage and who they become after 'I do' when the honeymoon is over. Their mindset of what a wife or husband ~is~ and they loose who the individual is. (Whole other blog) Most people don't even know about alternative life style, and the joy of sex, or the understanding of 'born this way' vs ' made this way'

Alternative life styles are not therapy to fix a marriage, or a secret club to give permission to live out fantasies. We, of the alternate world, rarely get jealous, have a deep understanding of our mates, not husband/wife, needs, desires, wants, goals, and dirty little secrets. We help each other fulfill all of those things. We have total open communication. Well, except for maybe work, but...define for ourselves safe, sane, consensual, kink, desire, wicked..but most importantly "what is and never shall be"

We have rules and limits, but we don't punish a husband jacking off to a playboy and call it cheating, or a wife seeing Magic Mike is a sin. We don't make our mate afraid to communicate, but most importantly, we explore ourselves and evolve our marriage. "Female Viagra" --keeping anger in check--if you are all about the dick--even when we hit the change of older life, if we never understood and put into practice "my pleasure is your pleasure", eroginous zones, understanding, open communication....God help you ' sickness and in health'...

This is where alternative life styles say wedding vows are the biggest lie, right next to true love waits. Marriage shouldn't be a ball and chain, or 1950's home economics Stepford wife, a goal or expectation in life. Until we change the puritanical conversation and start teaching real and valid history lesson....thou shall not judge...'I'm okay, you're ok'...until we teach real sex Ed...

...reality has become like me writing on this tablet, fighting Google and spell fill in check...we are all stupid and misunderstood

Joe, you write a very rational and reasonable commentary, which unfortunately does NOT conform to most of the LW stories, and even some of your own comments.

Let me stress that I have NO problem with ANYTHING that two consenting adults freely agree to.

But when one partner (husband OR wife!) says, "I'm going to fuck other people, and you can too," that is NOT right! What if the spouse doesn't WANT to have sex with anyone else? That makes the "permission" meaningless.

And I HATE the "If you love your spouse you will allow this" excuse. So if I want anal sex, and my wife doesn't want to do it, she should do it anyway to "prove" how much she loves me? How about I prove MY love by not asking her to do something that she isn't comfortable with?

And despite your protestations here about openness, and consent and trust, I've seen far too many comments by you, flc and SharedSigne defending wives who go behind their husband's back to cheat, and then condemn him when he makes her pay consequences instead of eating a cream pie and saying "Thank you!"

One of the many amusing aspects of this site is the habit of readers (which has become more and more prevalent in recent days) of accusing me of writing things I've never written. If you can find a single instance where I've suggested it's okay for a spouse to fuck around behind the other spouse's back, or where I've waxed poetic about slurping creampies, or where I've suggested that "open marriage" means one spouse issuing an ultimatum that "either you let me have sex with other people or I'll divorce you!", I will send you a check for a million dollars.

Although it's become tedious to see people constantly put words in my mouth and tell me what I think, how I live, and what my marriage is like, I do still get a laugh out of it. My favorite newest trend is people accusing me of writing anonymous comments, comments under other ID's, and moving stories to other categories. The common mistake that others make with all three accusations is believing that I care about these things as much as the rest of you.

This site is a fun little escape for me. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not "at war" with anyone, I'm not looking to advance an agenda, and I couldn't care less what anyone here thinks of me. But that will never stop the accusations from flying, regardless!

Thanks for your comment. Let me know if I need to send that check.

LOL, thanks for the polite reply.

I'll admit that I may be guilty of conflating you with some of the other commenters who seem the most egregious behavior should accepted with no consequences.

I won't be making a specific search, but please be advised that I do occasionally peruse old comments, especially with so much new stuff being crap, and I will be watching, LOL!

I've never have under stood a husband wanting another man to have sex with his wife, one if the marriage was solemnised in church it is encouraging her to break her vow hence to my mind he cannot be really in love with her.

I agree about big cock, as after a baby which is bigger than any penis it take just three days to return to back to normal exception is when the pelvic muscles have over stretched then a full return takes longer.One does not need a big cock to touch the cervix it is usually usually only 3 1/2 to 5 inches in from vagina entrance an I doubt any penis can force enty through the cervix as is often claimed in the stories

I agree with most of what you say. I think that swingers tend to be older for several logical reasons. They usually don't have children in the home and their lives have the time and opportunity to experiment with their lifetime style. You really didn't address the issue of children. It can be very traumatic for young children to find out their parents have other partners. However, we are sporadic swingers. It is not a regular indulgence for us but on occasion and with the right people it can be memorable. I didn't know how I'd react the first time I saw my wife with annother man. After 28 years of marriage it brought out emotions I never knew I had, both positive and negative. After talking with my wife she felt the same. It happened on a cruise. We talked it over and decided to explore further. Each time was unique in It's self.

After several years we can confirm what you say is true. One thing for us is that our sex life is greatly improved along with our communication. For instance, a cute little brunette I recently was with had some unique methods of giving head. I shared that with my wife and she now incorporates that in our love making.

Z

The author states the basic premise of his argument thusly:

'My definition of "cheating" is doing something without your spouse's knowledge that you know would hurt him or her emotionally.'

This sounds very reasonable, rational, fair and kind. It describes two humans modifying a contract made between them. This is not the case with marriage.

Marriage is entered into before a higher power sealed by vows made before that entity. Only the higher power has the authority to release a marriage partner from those vows. Typically, one of the vows is to "forsake all others". All of the human sophistries (the societal views of marriage are malleable and ever changing), piles of philosophic pinings (cheating is relative to the situation at hand and how much I really need to get laid), mounds of mediocre maunderings (I didn't know what marriage was like before I did it; I don't believe in God anyways), and jumbles of gerrymandered justifications (such as bowling leagues-which by the way was not LadyCharly's hypothesis, but this author's) cannot alter that one whit.

An "open marriage" is, therefore, an impossibility: an oxymoron. If a person wants to be released from those vows (at least, in the eyes of humans), then there is a well-recognized and readily available remedy. If you are too lazy to get a divorce before fucking outside of marriage, then you are a hypocrite. If you never cared about the stupid words uttered during the marriage ceremony and you said them anyways, then you are a hypocrite. If you refuse to hear the truth, then reading this comment is a waste of your time and may well be moot because you may have already fucked your brains out.

LWlurker

Extraordinarily good essay, everything you write is totally right. I think the main problem people have with open marriages ist that they do not think promiscuitive. As you wrote well, an open marriage isn't for all folks - by far not. You need at least an approach of promiscuitive thinking to be able to open your marriage successfully.

Thanks a lot for publishing.

The author of this makes a bad assumption. He consistently uses examples and statements about open marriage,and the death of marriage, as if both sides were equal. Men are far far weaker and less powerful sexually than women. Hence the rise of cuckolding. These are by definition open marriages, yet the male is reduced demeaned and made less valuable. Open marriage,at the expense of males and society in general. The author makes many valid points about single parents, cost to society of children raised without fathers, and more, but this is,becoming so normal that people do not even think,anything about it. Is anyone asking the question as to why men are so persecuted,that cuckolding is,virtually always a single direction relationship. Female cucks are mythical. What is happening. The stress men naturally feel is causing increased death rates, suicide rates far higher than female, and men dying of all 15 major causes of death far younger and far more than women. I personally cannot wait for the day for my stressed out cuckolded mechanic repairs my brakes, or the cucked and angst air traffic controller is In charge of my incoming flight. How many of these supposedly wonderful open marriages that become one way open would hold up if hubby was questioned under some sodium pentathol? Society is constructed the way it is for a reason. Economics. Look around you,everything you see and use was built by men, cars, trains, internet, buildings , bridges, roads, airplanes, etc. M en are better at some of this stuff, just as women are better at other things.Ready to see it all go south?

Well written and thought out. I would only make one suggestion; you only cited one study. I’m sure with a few good google searches you could find a number of studies to back your claims.

Of course the author is going to talk up open marriages and swinging if that is what he and his wife do. If my wife wants sex with someone else tell me and we can get a divorce. You can shove open marriages and swinging up your ass. Anyone who is remotely religious would never do anything like this, and if they do they are delusional.

What do you mean there is no evidence open marriage leads to divorce? All you have to do is google the percentage of failed open marriage and it's at a whopping ninety five percent. There are facts you can't dismiss and the amount of failed marriages is tracked. You don't open your marriage if you want to keep her because ultimately one or the other will get attached to someone else. That's what happens when you have sex with people. If your marriage is having issues talking to each other and spending more time together will help. Adding people to your bed will not fix anything.