Can this marriage be saved????

Since all my wonderful fellow litsters have always been so helpful to me, I thought this was a problem on which you might be able to shed some light.

This particular one is NOT about me (imagine that…and thank God!). It’s for my brother and sister-in-law, who I will call John and Sue. (Sue isn't posting here herself for reasons that might come clear at the end of this, for those of you who were wondering.) It’s pretty damn long, so get ready. Here we go:

John and Sue have been married for ten years, almost. They have three children. They have always seemed to have a very stable marriage. They have seen their share of ups and downs but they have always kept the lines of communication open, for the most part, and it has seen them through. John is an executive who works very long hours; Sue is a stay-at-home mom. They live comfortably. Life seems grand.

John and Sue have a shared email account. One that family and friends write to, send pictures, things like that. They both check it on a regular basis. One day Sue logs onto the account and there is a spam mail message in the inbox. She clicks on it because the subject line says something about a clearance sale and she’s into that. It is from a company on the web that sells erotic products, and at the bottom it has one of those little thingies that says “You are getting this email because you subscribed to yada yada yada…”

Unfortunately, that little company was one of the adult friend finder sites on the internet. Uh-oh. Sue gets suspicious. SHE didn’t subscribe. So she logs onto that site, types in the name of her town, and types in some info that would fit John: age, etc. Bingo. There is a picture of her husband, and a profile saying he enjoys discreet sex outside of his marriage and especially one-night stands. It details what he likes in the bedroom and says that his wife is, and I quote: “Just not interested anymore”.

So she calls John at work and demands the passwords to his email account. Dozens of profiles, dozens of women contacting him, that is what she finds. Meanwhile, John comes home. He starts begging with her as soon as he comes through the door. When asked why he did it, John responds: (and I am quoting this directly from John) “You didn’t pay attention to me anymore. So I thought you were looking. I thought you would see my name on those finder things when you went looking for a man and you would see my cry for help.”

Okay…with me so far? Okay.

John swears that he never actually cheated, he was just looking. Sue doesn’t know whether to believe him or not, though he admits would have had ample opportunity to cheat. A few months go by, during which time Sue is monitoring all his accounts, closing down the friend finder accounts, and basically watching him like a hawk. It appears that he is doing all he should be doing, so she loosens the reins a bit. John begins spending time on the internet again. One day, Sue checks the history of the pages he has visited. Big shock: dozens of names, messages sent and received, from women in their town. Very erotic. Very suggestive.

So…she moves into a separate bedroom. She and John are hardly talking. John swears up and down that he did not physically cheat. Sue cannot find evidence that he did. John is a very good husband with the exception of hiding the internet play from her, and the possibility of an affair. Sue cannot trust John and wonders if she ever will again. She has told him they must go through counseling and he says that they will, yet then doesn’t follow through with the plans. This has been happening now for almost four months.

So…Sue talked to me about this and asked for my advice. I told her about this board. However, she isn’t posting here herself because of the things John did, something about how she does not want to give him any ammunition when she did nothing wrong in the first place. (John is getting pretty upset about being "under her thumb" and I guess he is looking for some way to fight back, I don’t know…) Thus, I am here, posting for my dear sister-in-law.

If there is anything I haven't clarified here, please let us know.

Has anyone been through something like this? How did you handle it? Is Sue making too much out of this? I guess, in other words…like they say in one of those glossy women’s magazines…can this marriage be saved?

S.

In my opinion, Sue should start looking for employment, to begin with. AND a good lawyer. Have she and her husband gone to any kind of marriage counseling?

(John is getting pretty upset about being "under her thumb" and I guess he is looking for some way to fight back, I don’t know…)

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Fight back? He is so deeply in the hole and in the wrong, he does not have a leg to stand on. IMO this marriage might could be saved, but it sounds like they're going to have to work awfully, awfully hard.

How hard? A lot of these can-this-marriage-be-saved scenarios remind me of a story that my husband used to tell me about.

When he was very young, he and a couple of his buds managed to get their hands on an old trimaran, and were actually able to pool enough allowance money, odd-job money and pocket lint to buy the thing. One day they were out sailing the boat and it began to separate into two pieces. The boys reached toward each other across the widening gap between the hulls, and by clinging to each other and the boat at once were able to make it to harbor without sinking.

Yeah, they could sail the boat. That didn't mean it was seaworthy.

SlickTony said:

In my opinion, Sue should start looking for employment, to begin with. Have she and her husband gone to any kind of marriage counseling?

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According to Sue, they haven't gone together. He keeps saying that he will, but he keeps finding a reason to put it off. Sue is going to counseling on her own, and has been now for three months. All this actually began six months ago.

Employment...I'm not sure what her plans are with that.

Thanks, Slick. Other thoughts?

S.

I guess from this outsider's point of view is to give the counselling a chance. I don't see any harm by going to it; if anything it might resolve some issues that BOTH sides are awkward to explain to one another.

Sue's agreed to counselling; John in essence has but has yet to commit- until he does that, I don't see him with much of a leg to stand on. It seems as though both sides have trust issues now and the only way that's going to get resolved anytime soon is through mutual counselling.

For the sake of the kids, Sue's trust in John, John's trust in Sue and their mutual trust in their relationship... I think they should at least exhaust all possible avenues of honest & open discussion. A third party, a marriage counselor, needs to step in and see what the dynamics of this relationship are.

Whether it can be saved or not will be up to the BOTH of them, not just one party wanting it to happen. They both have to agree to meet with the counselor and be upfront & honest. They must also commit first and foremost to their kids' needs and if a two parent or single parent home is the best environment for them.

John needs to realize that his actions aren't exactly something he'd ever want his kids to find out about and I doubt if Sue's mistrust inher husband is something she's proud about either. They've both hurt one another with their deeds and hopefully with some counselling they can figure out what led them to this juncture, learn to forgive one another for their trepasses and learn to love one another again.

Can it be saved?? It's up to them and how much commitment they both have to it. I wish them the best of luck.

Kudos to you sheath for being a sounding board and a friend to Sue. Don't alienate John in all of this either. Be fair & impartial to the both of them and be supportive as you have been.

Hopefully my two bits here have been somewhat helpful. It's just my opionion and to be taken as such. Again, I wish them BOTH well.

See my edits. She should find a good lawyer as well.

Ultimately, the ball is in John's court...if he wants to stay married, he'll have to do WHATEVER Sue wants, period. He has used up any rights he had as far as being able to negotiate. She's willing to get help, he has to meet her halfway.

Unfortunately I have seen something very similar happen with two friends. During a 2 year period the husband literally became addicted to datelines, cyber, and later phone sex. He was going through a lot of money to maintain this. It began the same way as your brother and sister in law, but the wife didn't find out for at least a year because they didn't share computers. She found out when he tried to tap her IRA for cash. He never physically cheated but he went through most of their money before she found out. These are very good friends of mine, the wife I have know for 30 yrs, and the husband for at least 25. I was part of their wedding. This was unimaginable to anyone who knew them. The money spending was a cry for help, he said he wanted help. But once found out, he couldn't stop and eventually had a psychotic break and the person I knew is currently gone and has been for 2 years. It is very hard on their child.

Your brother doesn't seem to be that far out but it does sound like he can't stop. He needs counseling. I would recommend your sister in-law start protecting their assets and finances. This sounds very self destructive. I don't buy his excuse for a moment. He does it because he likes. I don't think it is relationship problem as much as a addiction and integrity problem with your brother.

I don't think she is making too much out of this at all, if it were me I would have emptied out the bank accounts for safe keeping, got the house in my name when he was feeling remorseful and started planning the rest of my life. Right now she is basically in a powerless position.

I could be wrong but it is better to be safe than sorry.

You know it sounds to me like she has tried to forgive and get past it. He wont even make the time to work for the marriage then I say get out now before more harm is done. It is worse for the kids to see this then to have parents not living together.

OMG - I was afraid to read this all the way through because I seriously thought you were talking about the situation I've just been through! Okay, this is going to prove a little long, but you asked for similiar stories as well as advice....

I met a man here at Lit a year and a half ago. We started off as friends, just chatting and nothing serious. As we shared more about ourselves, we discovered a mutual attraction. Although we never met, we exchanged email, snail mail, many, many phone calls, and sent each other gifts. He continually told me he was single, that he had only had three ex-girlfriends, and I could tell he was rather shy. About a year ago he told me he had run into financial problems (job and school) and needed to move home with his parents, so that would mean our phone calls would become more restricted, and I could no longer call him, as it was his parent's phone. I simply took him at his word - I had no reason to doubt him.

Things continued on, with him complaining about the situation with his parents, and stating that the inability for us to meet was because he was trying to save his money to get back out on his own.

Fast forward to about a week and a half ago. I received a letter in the mail from a person who lived in the same city but whose handwriting was different. Came to find out the letter was from his wife. She had been going through his closet and found a box he had hidden there and discovered all the letters and emails I had sent him. (He evidently had kept everything.) She told me they had been married less than a year, and to leave her husband alone - she had given him an ultimatium and he had chosen her so I was out of the picture. Okay, okay, that was a shock in and of itself. However, it took her a week between the time she wrote the letter and when she mailed it. In that time - when he had told her he had chosen her - we had talked on the phone 4 more times.

Now, the really winning part of this scenario is: they have only been married 10 months. He never told me he was getting married - in fact, he contacted me just 4 days after his wedding! And your sister in law thinks she's got problems?

I dispatched a letter to his wife, letting her know that her husband had not truly "chosen" her and if he did, of what value was it for a man to lie to his wife up to their wedding day and throughout their first year of marriage. I also told her not to worry - her husband wasn't worth it to me. Then I called the "sacred number" and sure enough got the answering machine with her voice. I called back and he picked up. I asked to speak to his wife, and that was when he knew he'd been caught.

As far as I know, he has decided to tell his wife what it was about me he liked (I'm sure that is sexual appetites and not necessarily "Chele would do this and Chele would do that"), and he is trying to be more open to her in what he wants. Supposedly, they are going to counseling.

In this instance, I think this guy dug a hole too deep and couldn't figure out how to get out. He placated his wife, but had no intention on stopping until the other party (me) found out and ended it. I respect marriage very highly and told him I thought that lying to his wife from the very day they were married was cruel and heartless and beyond anything I could conceive of in a human being.

Okay. Enough about my story.

As to your brother and sister in law? The best advice for you? Stay out of it, if at all possible. It is their problem to resolve, not yours. It will get resolved, one way or the other. However, we humans being what we are, that is the most difficult advice to follow - I know!

I know it is easy to blame the husband in this one. And I admit that what he did by placing ads was horrendous. (But hey, at least he admitted to potential women that he was married - trust me many men on these sites don't even do that!) However, it takes 2 to make a marriage - and two to break it. No marriage floundered simply because one party screwed up. If you talked to the invisible party, the truth, you would find that both parties are usually at least partially to blame.

I know that I might generate a lot of angry responses, but I'm wondering exactly what it is that your brother feels he is missing in his marriage? And no, I don't buy the old, hey they've been married 10 years and he's guy. I know many men who have been married 10, 15, 20 years or more and think their wives are the sun, the moon, and the stars.

There is one remark that is very telling in everything you wrote: he felt she wasn't paying him attention. Every single man I've ever talked to who has felt justified by his "cheating" - whether in r/l or online - has said the same exact thing. And I think this has some basis of truth that many woman don't like to face up to. Marriages get a bit stale, children make demands on one's time, people get involved in activities - and romance and all those little extra special things one used to do for their spouse gets tossed away. I'm am NOT sayin that his excuse is good enough to go out and place ads or communicate with other women. Absolutely not! But rather than "watching him like a hawk", searching through his emails, treating him as though he is 10 years old, she needs to listen to him. And she needs to listen honestly - even if she feels it might hurt. What exactly is it about these women that he finds so appealing? The thrill of the chase? The idea of some one paying attention to him and thinking he is Mr. Wonderful again? The sexual teasing? The excitement? Then she needs to find ways to achieve those things within their marriage. She needs to continue counseling - bringing with her the knowledge her husband passes along to her.

Now, hubby is probably not going to want to share at this point. Attacking him and making him feel as though he is a child is probably only going to cause him to withdraw even more. So, perhaps she needs to take a chance, be the first to do so. Loosen the reigns completely - let him know he is able to do as he wants. BUT, try to rekindle that flame that was there to begin with. Make time for him. Talk to him. Try to re-establish trust.

Is it easy? Nope. But how badly does she want to stay married to him? She needs to do a complete look at herself and figure out if along the way her husband was placed somewhere between putting the trash out and cleaning the litter box.

Now, for hubby. You are his sister, yes? You have the ability (should you choose to get involved) to talk to him. Find out what is wrong. And whatever he tells you do NOT go running back to his wife and tell her! Give him the opportunity for a shoulder to talk to. If you can build trust with him, if you can openly talk to him, you might also have what it takes to get him into counseling. But you cannot play tittle tattle. What one tells you, you must keep in confidence. (This is where it is sometimes best to stay out of it - they will want you to share what each other is saying to you.) Your brother might be feeling attacked on all sides right now. Granted, he probably understands that he was at fault initially. But with being watched like a hawk and treated this way, he is probably feeling a bit justified by his initial actions. Some one who shows they care about his side of the story could get him to open up. And that might elicit change. Maybe. No guarantees.

Has he met any of these women? Hard question, but I used to have an ad on AFF - and though I was contacted by many men and met quite a few, absolutely nothing happened with any of them. Not even holding hands or a hug. Most of the time, it is the thrill of having some one simply think you are marvelous, witty, funny, romantic, etc. I would go on the idea that he kept his activity to strictly online, unless proven otherwise. And it's easier than some people think to know whether or not a man (or woman) is cheating in r/l.

Okay - long, right? Sorry. But I see this as a combination of errors handled badly - and it only seems to get worse. It sounds as if some hard truths need to be faced by both husband and wife, and I don't envy their journey. Can the marriage be saved? It depends on how willing the participants are to make it work. Remember, the stories in the magazine only has those maritial problems that worked out - never the ones that didn't.

Thanks for sharing, chele...you seem to have a good perspecive on the big picture.

Let me add something, from a man's point of view. I was in a relationship where sex was not only infrequent, but mostly unwanted by my partner. What really hurt, though, was that she would avoid any physical intimacy, because she didn't want me to get aroused at all. The worst of it was that she made me feel guilty for having any sex drive at all, and me wanting to talk about what was wrong. She made me feel like if I really loved her, I would just become as sexless as she was. I never cheated on her, but if I had been online I probably would have been flirting like crazy on the computer. As it was, one of our falling outs was over porn...she didn't want me looking at it, and I told her that it was the closest thing to sex I was getting...probably not the wisest move on earth...

Point being, there is probably lots of problems in this marriage, and the online stuff is a symptom of deeper problems.

Johnny Mayberry said:

Point being, there is probably lots of problems in this marriage, and the online stuff is a symptom of deeper problems.

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I'm inclined to agree with this point wholeheartedly. It's because of this rationale that I think the counselling absolutely needs to step in if there is any hope of salvaging the relationship.

Wow I jut went through the samme thing w/m hubb this summer. After being married more than a decade and having 3 kiddos ourselves I was devestated. I learned dmore about a PC than I ever imagined I could. I found all kind of crap after I saw the online ad stuff on the hdd, then found it online and hacked his e-mail. I then found his home made videos of us (he had asked to make then at one time and I said "no" until I lost some weight). It broke my heart. I've let him sleep w/other women and even stopped working because he kept making remarks about me screwing around when I never did. I found a diary with notes on how he was even tracking the milage on the car.

I threw up for two weeks and had to be medicated. I was able to get my head together and focus. I have gone back to work and our relationship is stronger than ever. We talk about sex and wants and needs much more now. However, I'm finding it hard to believe that he is fully sharing and that's what' causing the problem. I just can't be sure he isn't still playing head games no matter how well things seem to be going. It's a trust issue. I would have felt better if he was jut fucking strange women every day but all his notes were disturbing and he thought I was fucking around. No matter that he came and went as he pleased and never gave me his work schedule (changed from week to week) and I had to rush home after work to be with the kids. I'm ranting sorry.........

Anyway she needs a job now! If she can get herself/life in order and not feel trapped and helpless she will be able to focus on the relationship and figure out if she's willing to make it work. She won't be able to do that if she continues to allow herself to be a financial hosatage.

Johnny Mayberry said:

Thanks for sharing, chele...you seem to have a good perspecive on the big picture.

Point being, there is probably lots of problems in this marriage, and the online stuff is a symptom of deeper problems.

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Thank you, JM. And I think your last line really nails it!


I guess I'm just not understanding the concept that this woman needs to get a job. She's a stay at home mom, and I'm assuming she is in that position because it is what makes her happiest. Why place the additional burden and stress of a job on her right now? Her husband has stated he feels he isn't getting enough attention - and she should stretch herself even farther by getting a job? This just doesn't compute to me. I could see if she were planning on leaving him and if divorce were in the picture, but, according to the original statements, this doesn't seem to be the direction this couple is taking.

Just color me confused...

I kind of understand the whole job thing...maybe she could see things clearly if she got out more. On the other hand, does teh relationship need the extra stress, if they are going to try to work things out?

Lust Engine said:

I guess from this outsider's point of view is to give the counselling a chance. I don't see any harm by going to it; if anything it might resolve some issues that BOTH sides are awkward to explain to one another.

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I'm inclined to agree with Lust Engine here. In this relationship, the lines of communication are broken, and talking with an outside party typically helps. Someone who is not biased in the situation, and can possibly see problems that the couple did not/ will not address themselves. Family/Marriage counseling may be exactly what this couple needs to save their relationship.

Trust is a major issue in marriages and relationships. If you don't have trust, you really don't have anything. I went through a situation similar to this a couple of years ago with my then fiance. The difference here is that he actually met two of the women he talked too and carried on affairs right under my nose. I gave him another chance, and he did it again, this time with me actually catching them in the act.

I can sympathize and empathize with Sue and what is going on in her life. If she really wants to save her marriage, then they both need to talk to someone.

I'm sorry, but based on what I saw of my parents' marriage, and what I went through with my first marriage, I just can't grok the idea that an arrangement with one party bringing in all the money and the other economically independent is a marriage of equals. That's why I think Sue needs to get a job.

If this was my marriage, I really do no know that I could ever forgive my husband - even if he had not actually 'met' these other women. The fact that he had put so much energy and effort into cultivating such relationships rather than investing into making things better with ME in the first place...well, I just don't think I could get past it.

WOW...

Absolutely incredible advice...

I have printed off the posts and Sue has them now. Obviously, I can't comment much on what she thinks because she hasn't told me yet!

But I can respond to a little of what you all said, at least the parts that concern me...

I do know that I'm playing a tad of a dangerous game, getting involved here. My brother and I have always been very close, and Sue became a wonderful friend. I care so deeply for both of them. I don't share anything with either, that's my rule. My brother DOES know of my disappointment, of course...what sister wouldn't make that clear? But Sue wonders what she did wrong, and I agree with all this advice here, counseling would work wonders.

And by the way...that computer is now in MY attic, by request of both of them, so at least that can't be a problem anymore. Not at HOME, anyway...

So...thank you for the advice. And I will give an update as to what they plan to do.

Thank you for everthing so far...and as always, if you have more advice, it is most welcome!

You guys are great.

S.

This marriage can be saved if Sue wants badly enough to save it. She's obviously comitted. Been to the therapist, etc. Has she asked herself whether there was any legitimacy to John's complaint in the first place? Has she attempted to address that concern?

John is certainly the one to break trust, but still he cannot be expected to do what he needs to do if he must live in his own house as his wife's probationer. He should read Frank Pittman's wonderful book, Private Lies.

If these people want to invest the energy necessary to save the relationship, it can be done. But it won't be easy.

A good, lasting, marriage is much like a three legged stool.

The legs are: Commitment.
Respect.
Forgiveness.


If any of the legs is missing, or too short the marriage will fail.

A very important part of "Commitment" is fullfilling the partners needs, sex is one of those needs.

I suspect that the wife in this marriage stopped supplying that need and now is resentfull that her husband went looking for a substitute. If she indeed wants to save the marriage she is going to have to lenghten both of the short legs, Commitment and Forgivness.

I suspect that the wife in this marriage stopped supplying that need and now is resentfull that her husband went looking for a substitute.

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That's not always the case. There's been many a marriage where the wife wasn't getting enough and wondering why, and meanwhile the husband was out getting it elsewhere. You find this in cases where the Madonna-Whore syndrome is at work. I'm not saying that's what's at work in this case; but it happens. I'm just sayin'.

I think some grand assumptions are being made about the sex life of Sue and John. Why is it that when a man strays, it is believed to be the womans fault? She must not have been providing what he needed at home, blah blah blah. The only problem I have with that statement is, did he ever make his wife aware of his needs? I don't mean subtle clues and such where he expected her to be able to read his mind. I mean blatent and open conversations. That he was able to do so with strangers on the net and not his wife and partner suggests that he is either ashamed of those needs or that they don't exist in the first place. Regardless of whether or not Sue was putting out, she didn't do anything wrong. If there has been no communication of needs and wants, how is she to know? When one has been married for a number of years, and there are children involved it can be very difficult to continue the level of intimacy that was achieved in the beginning of the relationship. People change, as do their wants, needs, and desires. Part of having a healthy relationship is making sure that we devote time to our family, each other, and ourselves. Seems simple enough, but more often than not it can be very difficult. Quite honestly, if I were Sue I would be more hurt by Johns actions than if he went out and boinked several random girls. Simply because he was sharing a level of intimacy with these girls on the net, that he wasn't sharing with his wife. One thing that hasn't been addressed is when women feel betrayed, it is very difficult to want to engage and continue in a sexual relationship. Forgiveness takes time, healing takes longer. Trust has to be earned once it has been broken. Making love with someone requires a level of trust, and many times during acts of passion one needs to be able to let go completely to be able to enjoy it. One can not do this when trust has been broken. Due to heightened emotional states, until such a time that true forgiveness is achieved.. it will eat away at you, at your soul, make you feel less than you are and be devasting in a way that can sever the bond completely if rushed. If the problem was that his needs weren't being met at home, odds are now it will take much longer for them to be because of his deception and betrayal.

I speak from the view point of a woman who had a mate stray on her. We had a very sexual relationship. There was no possible way that his needs were not being met. Some men/women need the thrill of the chase, new territory to explore, the rush of beginning a new relationship. This can't be found in marriage. In some ways perhaps, through role playing and such. On the whole though, it is a matter of sticking by the commitment and making mature and responsible decisions. I could never be intimate with someone who betrayed me. The relationship to me, at the point of betrayal, is over. The simple fact is, if you want something bad enough you work for it, you find ways of achieving the goal. The amount of energy and time expended on these various women on the internet (regardless of whether they met or not), is time that he could have been investing into his marriage. He chose not to. He chose to go outside of his marriage, without the consent or knowledge of his wife. He chose to sever the bonds between them by trying to establish new ones with other women. Regardless of what is going on at home, he chose to NOT deal with it. Yes, it takes two.. blah blah blah. The relationship, as with any, is only as strong as its weakest link. He was the link that snapped.

Can the marriage be saved? I dont know. That depends on Sue's ability to forgive, and Johns ability to work on the relationship. Were it me, the relationship would end. Even given a second chance, he again chose to turn away from his wife. How many chances should one be allowed?

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned. She is a stay at home mom, he works long hours. When does she have time to herself? If she is home all day with the kids, and he is gone all day at work, where is their alone time? In this senerio is he chatting with women after work, or during? If after work, why isn't he spending time with his wife? If during, why aren't Sue and John sending steamy emails to one another through out the day? Building anticipation and such. Simple things can add up, small considerations can keep a relationship going.

Perhaps I am jaded by all the married men/women that I see that are always crying about their homelife. It isn't my place to judge, nor my place to know what is best for everyone. I try not to, but at the same time I have to wonder. I wonder, if these people spent as much time cultivating their relationship with their spouse as they do with online flings, if their homelife wouldn't be better.

Re: WOW...

sheath said:

Absolutely incredible advice...

I have printed off the posts and Sue has them now. Obviously, I can't comment much on what she thinks because she hasn't told me yet!

But I can respond to a little of what you all said, at least the parts that concern me...

I do know that I'm playing a tad of a dangerous game, getting involved here. My brother and I have always been very close, and Sue became a wonderful friend. I care so deeply for both of them. I don't share anything with either, that's my rule. My brother DOES know of my disappointment, of course...what sister wouldn't make that clear? But Sue wonders what she did wrong, and I agree with all this advice here, counseling would work wonders.

And by the way...that computer is now in MY attic, by request of both of them, so at least that can't be a problem anymore. Not at HOME, anyway...

So...thank you for the advice. And I will give an update as to what they plan to do.

Thank you for everthing so far...and as always, if you have more advice, it is most welcome!

You guys are great.

S.

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I'm glad to see that you're aware of the tenuious situation you've placed yourself in, my dear sheath. Try to remain as neutral and as loving as possible. Re-assure the both of them individually & together that you love them both dearly and you hope that they reach a resolution (whether it's separation, divorce or working it out). That's all you can honestly hope for is a resolution. Any other hopes & wishes on your part might make it seem as though you're siding with one or the other.

They're both lucky in the sense that they do have a caring relative such as you to try arbitrate this issue. As disappointed as you are with your brother, try to remain understanding of him too. I know you feel sympathy for Sue & her questioning of her own self esteem.

Long after all this is settled, he's still going to be your brother. She's still going to be your sister-in-law (whether by marriage or not). I'm sure you'll still love them dearly, and I hope that they'll still be adult enough to feel the same way towards you. Keep your head about you.

While we've given some advice & opinions as to what they should do as individuals & as a couple, I guess I also want to make sure YOU'LL be okay in this ordeal too. Take care of yourself throughout this, sheath. Be aware, supportive & loving as you have been, but like so many others have said here... let them sort it out and still love them afterwards.

Again, good luck to them AND to you.

Just From Your Post...

I would say that yes the marriage can be saved. Why? Because it seems, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but Sue is being a doormat, and will forgive anything he does. Even if she is sleeping in the next room, she is still giving him hope, and as long as he feels he can keep fooling her, he will.

Notice how he blamed his issues on her...

“You didn’t pay attention to me anymore. So I thought you were looking. I thought you would see my name on those finder things when you went looking for a man and you would see my cry for help.”

How many YOU's do you see in there?! He isn't being accountable for anything! If it were me, I would dump his ass in a heartbeat...kids, no kids, money, no skills...I wouldn't give a flying fuck. He would be outta there.

Sorry, got flashbacks of my lying, cheating dog of an ex fiancee from my twenties when I read your post.