Love, Family...and the Interracial Relationship

Hello again, all.

For my question, a little background is necessary. I'm wondering how to handle my grandmother and other members of my family who seem to have a serious problem with my choice of man.

The background:

My grandmother is very 'old school'. Traditional to the core. She is very, very anti-divorce. When I left my (now ex) husband, she shunned me, refused to talk with me, and basically made me feel like shit for leaving him. He had cheated, which was the final straw in quite a haystack of wrongs, but her response was always, "Men just do that. You have to look the other way. And besides, you have children." That's just a little information to give you an idea of her mindset. She is against any 'new' man in the children's lives, which means that she is also against a new man in MY life.

To compound the problem...she is very racist. Example: My mother (who is white as the driven snow) once dared to bring home a black man. *gasp* My grandmother threw a fit and called her all sorts of names that would make even the most strident racist shake their head in shame. She threatened to disown her. The relationship ended, mostly because of family pressure on my mother.

Unfortunately, my grandmother is simply the most obvious example out of my family. They are ALL of the same mindset, with the exception of my dear Mom and brother. Mom is of the mindset..."If it makes you happy, then by all means, have it and pass the champagne!"

And me...I'm the black sheep. I'm the only one who ever moved out of the little town, graduated from college, all that good jazz. And the fact that I write erotica made me quite the buzz at family reunions, but that's another story and another thread.

Now, here's the rub...my man, whom I love VERY much, has never met my family. He just might meet them this weekend. And my man is Chicano...his mother is white/caucasian, and his father is Mexican. The fact that he is Chicano is obvious...he looks more like his father than his mother.

I love my man more than anything, and trust me, I am my OWN woman...no opinion is going to sway my determination to be with this man for the rest of our lives. I'm wondering how best to handle this upcoming meeting. I did mention to my family that he is Chicano...my mother responded by, "Really? Cool. Tell me about his heritage." She was very interested, and it didn't phase her in the least, of course. (Gosh, I love me mommy. )

My grandmother, however, immediately told everyone else in the family, and a damn-near-lynching ensued. It went something like: "What? How could you? You aren't going to have KIDS, are you? What about the children? What will their father say? How could you? What will people think?" And all that usual bullshit.

I do want my man to meet my family before I marry him. I know that they will likely never accept him with open arms. But I at least want civility at this first meeting.

So...anybody have any insight into this situation? How would you handle it? Anyone else who has faced this, what did you do?

Thanks in advance.

S.

HHMMMM....I have no idea what to tell you. I have yet to meet a racist family who was willing to be 'civil' although, if it makes you feel better, generally the family won't say anything while the offensive party is face to face, they wait until the person leaves. There will probably be a lot of tension and dirty looks but as long as your man isn't willing to make a big deal out of it, things should...generally...be okay. Of course, if your family leaves near a lot of trees, you might want to leave the car running. j/k

You will probably hear a lot of 'Do what makes you happy' comments which sounds good in theory but doesn't quite work so great in RL. My niece and nephew haven't seen their white grandparents in years.

If you realize your family just will not accept your man at all, you will have a rough road ahead of you with some tough decisions.

Good Luck, my dear...let us know what happens.

Hold your head high

Just hold your head high, be proud of you and your kids, and of your new love, and pray for the best. If your family doesn't accept him, then that's THEIR problem.

I lived with a very dark skinned Pakistani when I was in my early 20's and my mother hated him. Fortunately, she never told me about it and whenever anyone commented on the fact that her daughter was living with a "black man" she let them know it was none of their damn business.

Maybe you can enlist your mother as your ally in this case.

Good luck.

Blackbich said:

HHMMMM....I have no idea what to tell you. I have yet to meet a racist family who was willing to be 'civil' although, if it makes you feel better, generally the family won't say anything while the offensive party is face to face, they wait until the person leaves. There will probably be a lot of tension and dirty looks but as long as your man isn't willing to make a big deal out of it, things should...generally...be okay. Of course, if your family leaves near a lot of trees, you might want to leave the car running. j/k

You will probably hear a lot of 'Do what makes you happy' comments which sounds good in theory but doesn't quite work so great in RL. My niece and nephew haven't seen their white grandparents in years.

If you realize your family just will not accept your man at all, you will have a rough road ahead of you with some tough decisions.

Good Luck, my dear...let us know what happens.

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Thanks for the kind words. I expect that most of my family will try to put on their best face, and 'tough it out'. My grandmother, however, will state her case. Probably with stereotypical comments like, "Well, I've heard that Mexicans work hard, and that's good" (something she keeps holding up, as if the stereotype of that were his only redeeming quality).

I know that my family will have a difficult time accepting him. If they don't ever get to that point, well...it's their loss. I stand firmly behind the man I love. I just wish I didn't have to face this battle with my own family.

I will definitely let you know what happens.



S.

Re: Hold your head high

WhisperHaven said:

Just hold your head high, be proud of you and your kids, and of your new love, and pray for the best. If your family doesn't accept him, then that's THEIR problem.



I lived with a very dark skinned Pakistani when I was in my early 20's and my mother hated him. Fortunately, she never told me about it and whenever anyone commented on the fact that her daughter was living with a "black man" she let them know it was none of their damn business.

Maybe you can enlist your mother as your ally in this case.

Good luck.

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I'm lucky there...Mom supports me. However, she also tends to buckle when around the influence of my grandmother, so...she's more like a silent ally. Which sometimes pisses me off, but hey...she's the one who has to see my grandmother every day and deal with her. I live farther away, so I don't have to do that. I guess I can understand her reluctance to be vocal about it.

Thanks for the advice.

S.

I would suggest a very public dinner and very little contact other than that. If you can make it a short visit (overnight or 3 days max) then you have the "legit" excuse that there was no more time to spend with the family. Being in public with other people around to observe any offensive behavior or verbalizations might keep things a bit more civil. If you must be with the rest of the family in a location that is out of your control, you might give a camcorder to one of your kids and ask him/her to tape everything so that you don't miss a bit for later enjoyment. People ALWAYS act different when on camera.

My own son is biracial and looks like his other genetic half. My family have given me zero shit whatsoever. It is kinda funny--I am single, never married and with a non white child. Of course, I am openly heterosexual so maybe they are so thankful for that, that they don't freak over my boy. LOL (We have 2 adult gay women in our family--both who have had their share of successes in life.) Another thing to note, my son was the product of a very private rebound-type "relationship". He looks EXACTLY like his other half who still lives in my hometown. At my highschool reunion, people were saying "Oh yeah, that sure is ___'s kid alright. Spitting image!" There was no doubt whatsoever. If I could handle that, then you can handle your crazy situation.


Good luck.

hi S,
first, it is your life, and the love you have to share with whom you choose. You are NOT choosing someone for your grandmother or everyone else in the family to love.

Yes, it will be tough. but it is your love, and your future. Too many times parents and grandparents try to force their views on other family members. You can love and respect your grandmother, and still choose you own way.

You are proud of your love for him, and be strong in your belief. Don't think you would want be be married to someone the family thinks is great, but you don't love.

Just my simple thoughts. It is never right for someone else to live our lives for us.

Appetite

BlondGirl said:

I would suggest a very public dinner and very little contact other than that. If you can make it a short visit (overnight or 3 days max) then you have the "legit" excuse that there was no more time to spend with the family. Being in public with other people around to observe any offensive behavior or verbalizations might keep things a bit more civil. If you must be with the rest of the family in a location that is out of your control, you might give a camcorder to one of your kids and ask him/her to tape everything so that you don't miss a bit for later enjoyment. People ALWAYS act different when on camera.

My own son is biracial and looks like his other genetic half. My family have given me zero shit whatsoever. It is kinda funny--I am single, never married and with a non white child. Of course, I am openly heterosexual so maybe they are so thankful for that, that they don't freak over my boy. LOL (We have 2 adult gay women in our family--both who have had their share of successes in life.) Another thing to note, my son was the product of a very private rebound-type "relationship". He looks EXACTLY like his other half who still lives in my hometown. At my highschool reunion, people were saying "Oh yeah, that sure is ___'s kid alright. Spitting image!" There was no doubt whatsoever. If I could handle that, then you can handle your crazy situation.


Good luck.

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Wow! That does give me more confidence. It sounds like you handle that situation so well.

It's only for a few hours...and it IS at my grandmother's house. *sigh* I spoke with her just a little while ago...and she told me again how excited she was about seeing the kids...I casually reminded her that my man would be coming along, and I really wanted her to meet him...and she actually told me it might be best to keep him out in the car!

I informed her that if she wanted to see the kids that would be the way it had to be, and she sighed and said that was fine. If she's expecting ME to come there with my little family, she can damn sure expect my ENTIRE little family to show up. I don't think I was unreasonable in putting my foot down.

I'm now at the point where I am considering not going at all. But I don't want to keep the kids away from their family.

Dammit, dammit, dammit!

S.

appetite said:

hi S,
first, it is your life, and the love you have to share with whom you choose. You are NOT choosing someone for your grandmother or everyone else in the family to love.

Appetite

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Ah...so right, as always.

I'm reminding myself of that tonight...over...and over...and over...

*sigh*

S.

sheath said:

For my question, a little background is necessary. I'm wondering how to handle my grandmother and other members of my family who seem to have a serious problem with my choice of man.

...
So...anybody have any insight into this situation? How would you handle it? Anyone else who has faced this, what did you do?

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My younger daughter (who is about your age) had a similar problem with my mother.

She had a black BF and my mother told her it was my daughter's business, but she (my mother) had absolutely no wish to meet the BF and would never welcome him into her home if they came to visit.

My daughter chose to politely decline any chance to visit with my mother -- usually with a small dig about she'd be spending the time with her BF and wouldn't want to offend my mother.

Your grandmother sounds like a much tougher case than my mother -- my mother is actually quite liberal for her generation and not "racist" at all by her standards.

I'm afraid you're going to have to make a choice between shunning your family and going to family gatherings alone. I don't see any prospect of anything but thinly veiled hostility from your grandmother and the rest of the family towards your BF.

It's possible that they'll see him as real person instead of stereotype eventually, but forcing his company on them is likely to delay that more than it will help the situation.

One thing that might help you understand your grandmother's reaction is to find out about early 20th century and depression era views about "misgynation" -- the mixing of races.

Up through the 1960's, there was a large body of "scientific proof" that mixing of races was not only morally worse than incest, but the cause of mental illnesses and congental defects in half-breed children. Your grandmother and my mother both learned this as "Fact" with their mother's milk, and had in reinforced in their schooling, and there is nothing you can do to change that bone-deep conditioning.

The best you can do is avoid rubbing their noses in reality.

Re: Re: Love, Family...and the Interracial Relationship

Weird Harold said:

One thing that might help you understand your grandmother's reaction is to find out about early 20th century and depression era views about "misgynation" -- the mixing of races.

Up through the 1960's, there was a large body of "scientific proof" that mixing of races was not only morally worse than incest, but the cause of mental illnesses and congental defects in half-breed children. Your grandmother and my mother both learned this as "Fact" with their mother's milk, and had in reinforced in their schooling, and there is nothing you can do to change that bone-deep conditioning.

The best you can do is avoid rubbing their noses in reality.

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Very astute, Weird Harold. I know that my grandmother does believe this way, and I don't think her attitude will change. I fear it will get worse when my man and I have kids of our own, which we plan to do quite soon. She has been quite vocal about her fears of me having children with 'that Mexican guy'.

If it does come down to that choice of shunning my family or going alone...I will not go alone. That is something that didn't take me long to decide.

Ah...damn. Why does it have to be so complicated? *sigh*

S.

This is just an idea. Not necessarily a good one, though.

If your grandmother is tenderhearted toward a certain circumstance, you might "confide" a small fib to her. Example--that your BF was orphaned and that it is a "big secret" and he really doesn't want anyone to know or whatever might make him more lovable to her. I realize it is a fat chance, but hey-who knows. Of course, I would discuss it with him. It might make for some very entertaining conversation while traveling up there.


Make sure that the kids understand that just because your grandmother might have some stupid ideas about race, that it does not invalidate her as a person and that she is still lovable despite her faults. It is a good lesson for your kids to see since they will undoubtedly make some seriously stupid decisions in their futures and will be able to recall how forgiving and loving your are. I have a blinding headace and can't remember the term for that kind of love. The kind we all wish someone in our lives felt for us.

Since this will be at her house, I would definately recommend the camcorder. You might also (as a side note) want to photograph the pictures she has on display in the house as well. Get them clear as you can in good light without glare with a film camera in case you don't "get" to go back again while they are still available.

Sheath,
First off sit back, take a few breaths and consider a few simple facts. Its your life, your choice of man. If your grandmother doesn't like it, she doesn't have to see him (or your kids). Period end of story.

My suggestion would be to sit grandma down and in no uncertain terms explain that if she wants to see your kids, she will be polite and respectful of your mate. Or you will cut your losses and go about your life without any contact from her.

Young children are extremely impressionable, even a brief stay with a relative can impart a long lasting belief. The simple fact is that even if your SO doesn't come with you, your children will still most likely have to put up with listening to your grandma complain.

I grew up in a very traditional middle class white family. And even though its been years since that environment I'm still coming to grips with some of the ingrained beliefs that were programmed into me merely by example. Don't let your kids fall into that trap. It may be your family, but you don't live with them, you do live with your SO.

Hi Sheath... it's apparent from your post that your family is very against this relationship, but I didn't get whether they are likely to be rude in person or not. Are they? If your grandmother is very traditional, I would hope she would also be dignified and polite to any guest in her home.

I would try to keep from making it appear to be too big of a deal from your end. Don't spend a lot of time arguing back and forth about your relationship or Mexican stereotypes, just be clear in your actions. Keep your words simple and to the point. Just say something like, "you've made your feelings clear, but this man is going to be part of our family, so I expect you to treat him with respect even if you disaprove of our relationship." Then let it go and give her a chance to do it. If she does, great. If she doesn't, the next time there is a family event tell her, "___ is my fiance/husband now, and we are a family, so I don't want to go to family events without him. But the last time he came around, you were very rude to him, and I just can't subject him to that, so we'll just celebrate ___ on our own." That may or may not appeal to her sense of traditional marital roles, but if it doesn't work at least you can feel strong in your opinions. Then stick with it, even if it's difficult. Hopefully she'll miss you.

One thing - if this guy is a nice guy, he'll know how hard this is on you and how much you may be giving up with your family and he'll want to support you through this. That's great, but remember he's in a difficult position too. It's your family's racism that's the problem and not him, but it is racism towards him, and it will be hard on him to know this. Be honest with him, sure, but don't forget to be sensitive to his feelings too. You might want to find someone else to confide in about the worst of your sadness and frustration or any specific slurs. (Sorry, I know you didn't ask that, but having been in his position before, I had to throw that in)

Good luck.

Sheath, how did you and I wind up in almost the exact same situation?

Seriously, my S/O is full-blooded Mexican and it's my mother that can be the problem. She is not outspoken about her dislike, but her attitude is obvious. The first time he met her he clued into her position. (Admittedly, I had not told her he was Mexican, so the initial meeting caught her off guard as he has a very Anglicized name) Most of my other relatives share my mother's views, but fortunately they live scattered across the country and I don't see any of them for extremely long periods of time. I'm lucky in that regard.

As far as my mother goes, I live my life. I see who I want because he makes me happy and I enjoy his company. If she can't understand that, then I really have no sympathy. However, that doesn't translate into coldness. I make certain that we have "just us" time. I let her know she is still an important factor in my life and that she always will be.

You have to live your life. And if you've found some one who makes you happy, then that is all there is to it. One thing I've learned about family is that they are quick to jump on your decisions and very seldom around to see the consequences. The best thing is not to hide or act as though something is inappropriate. Be proud of who you are with - trust me, he will probably bear more of the brunt than you do! You will feel some discomfort, he will probably be made to feel downright unwelcome. Proudly introduce him to your family with an attitude of this is a man not a Mexican. Period. If they have hangups on race, it's their hangup. Not yours. Not your man's.

As far as your grandmother goes, I think she will clue in very quickly that alienating you will mean she gets to see her grandkids less. She very well could do a tradeoff there. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say she won't accept children from this union. Often people who are against race say that, until the babies come. And, uh, I don't mean to be crass, but how old is your grandmother? If she's in her 40s or 50s, you might have to settle in for the long haul. If she's up there in age, um, well, she might not be around in the long run. (Damn, but I hate to bring that up, but my grandmother - who sounds very similiar to yours - just passed last year at 95.)

You are a strong woman, Sheath, and you can get through this. It's incredible to me that people can be strong and independent until they come up against family members. (That finger is pointing right back at me too, btw!) Just be who you are, love who you want, be happy with your life. What else is there?

I know even at this stage of your life (not saying that you're old by ANY means), we still seek approval from our elders.

But with your scenario you know you won't find it in a way that will ultimately please you. Your grandmother is set in her way & nothing will change it for her.

The best thing & probably the most mature & dignified thing is to be the best that you folks can be. Don't give her any ammunition to fire upon you guys with. If she's wants to throw some racially tainted barb at you, let it fall to one side. Be the adult in this situation. Don't give her racist attitude & words any credance.

You hold the upper hand in this situation. You both know how to act civil & dignified; hopefully your grandmother will too.

My older sister is married was married to a man with a higher than our family average amount of skin pigment (he was killed in a car accident many years ago) and my grandmother was a lot the same as yours. I was embarressed by her many times due to her treatment of him and others as well. She was not truly a racist, but just very old school in thoughts and didn't feel it was "proper" for the races to mix. One year at Christmas they had come to visit (my grandparents at that point lived with us or us with them hehe, any way, we lived in the same house) and my grandmother was being her normal sweet God fearing self, talking about the properness of family etc. A televsion show came on titled something like "What color was Jesus" of course having Jesus in the title and it being Christmas we were all shushed and told to sit down and learn something. We all did and boy did we, I was only 10 or 12 at the time, but was truly impressed that all the drawings of Jesus I had seen were wrong, since he was of middle eastern origin he was dark skinned, had black hair and dark brown eyes. No blonde hair and blue eyes with a light skin there. Also he was a big guy, remember he grew up as a woodworker, he was tall (rose above most men by his head and shoulders, but can't recall the book that comes from) and so therefore rather muscular. The little wimpy pale, long haired skinny white guy is a Catholic myth, He was tall, strong, dark skinned black haired man in a robe. So next time your grandmother points out that it is just not right, even God will condemn you, point out that he most likely would be quite comfortable, after all he likes white women too,, just like her. Good luck and I hope it all works out well for you.


Carnus

Thank you for all the responses. All the words of encouragement were what I needed to hear today.

Bobmi: One of my fears IS something that you mentioned, which is the possibility of my children believing that kind of behavior is alright. I have raised my children with the solid belief that every person is special, and the color of skin absolutely does not matter. However, they also believe that my grandmother hung the moon, and at their ages (5 and almost 4) they are very open to suggestion.

Nikki: I do expect my family to treat him in a rude manner. Not overtly so, but by ignoring him, and dropping subtle jabs. They are artists at that. I know that this situation is much more difficult for him than it is for me, and we are talking very openly about it. He has asked that I hide nothing from him when it comes to my family's opinion, and I don't. We both know exactly on what kind of ground we stand with them. That's the good part. The bad part is, we're standing on quicksand, it seems. *sigh*

Chele: My grandmother is in her early 80s. She's quite outspoken and very firm in her beliefs. She's the daughter of a very conservative and outspoken preacher, and she herself was involved in the anti-segregation movements during the 50s and 60s. So...this mindset is something that, if it hasn't changed in all those years, will likely NEVER change.

LE: I am coming to accept the fact that approval from her is something that will not happen. I don't have to have her approval, but it would be nice.

Carnus: The comment about Jesus "liking white women too" made me laugh so hard! If I said that...wow...now THAT would make sparks fly! lol

Orchid: Your comment about deciding what to do ahead of time, and then acting accordingly, is great advice. The more I think about the situation, the more upset I get about the choice I am having to make. I respect my grandmother for many reasons, but I disagree with her on many things. However, if I don't stand up for myself, then who will?

Thanks for all the advice.

****

Ironically enough, while I was writing this response, my grandmother called. She wanted to inform me again that 'that guy' is not welcome in her home. Then she invited me to call up my ex-husband and invite HIM to bring the children.

I decided...that's it. That's the last straw. I asked her to clarify one thing: "Are you saying that the man your granddaughter loves is not welcome in your home?" She thought about it and said, "That's not fair." I assured her it WAS fair, that was the situation clearly stated, and I wanted a yes or no answer.

Her answer was as expected. He is not welcome. I told her that I was sorry things had to be this way. I assured her that I love him dearly, and that he IS a part of my life, and no family pressure or disdain was going to change that. I told her that she does not have to agree with the things I do or the choices I make, but she does have to accept them. He and I deserve nothing less than respect.

She was silent after that little exchange. I told her that I loved her and quietly hung up.

So...I'm feeling rather lost. But I am sure I did the right thing. I feel stronger for making my convictions clear. The ball is in her court now, but I'm afraid that doesn't leave me with much hope for a kind resolution.

Thank you all for your advice. I'm sure this will get rockier before it gets better.

S.

First of all, let me congratulate you on your pending marriage.

Unfortunately, the scenario you describe may very well be the end of familial relationships as you know them. If your grandmother decides to come around, there may still be a fighting chance, but it doesn't sound very likely. And, as with most grandmothers, her decisions will generally be upheld by many of the other family members.

It is good that you put your foot down when she refused to allow your man at her home. As stated earlier in the thread, it may come down to going alone or not going at all. It sounds as if you will choose not to go at all.

My man was shunned by most of my family. It wasn't due to race, but simply because everyone believed that after my divorce, I should remain single until the kids were grown up. It's what my aunts did, it was what I was supposed to do. The last letter from my grandmother before she passed away contained a few short sentences telling me that I should be a mother to my kids and not have a boyfriend. My aunt sent me an extremely long Email explaining why single mothers were selfish for dating while the kids were still at home. My mother wouldn't let him come to the family gatherings (I still went occasionally, but only for a short time). She took to sending plates of holiday meals over to my ex-husband, even though she had never liked him.

Then, after a couple of years, she wanted my man to start coming over. This is probably because the kids are grown and almost grown, so her reasons are becoming void. But, he has made a decision not to suddenly start attending just because he has this "permission". He sometimes goes to her house with me on an average day, briefly. However, after the initial shunning, I don't think there will ever be much of a relationship there, and the one I had with the family won't ever be the same.

I wish you the best of luck, Sheath.

Hugs,
Wantonica

PinkOrchid said:

Hi Carnus,

I'm going to take issue with your definition of "racist" here. How can one NOT be a racist if they think the races should not "mix?" Or if they treat someone differently based on something as minor as skin color (biologically and genetically, skin color is insignificant in the big scheme of things unless you're speaking of one's propsensity toward sunburn or skin cancer, in which case, those with lighter skin are "inferior.")

Racism can be as overt as an action, or as subtle as a thought like this. But just because racism remains in the mental realm doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it doesn't manifest itself (even subconsciously) in one's actions.

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I do have to agree with you that by definition my grandmother was rasicst, but I also have to add that while by definition she was, by cultural norm when she was growing up she was not, it was not that she felt that other races were inferiror or less important, she was just a victom of how she grew up, mostly as seperate. She was raised in southwest oklahoma in the early 1900s, at that time she actually told me that she was an adult before she ever met a person of different color. So while racist by definition she was not racist by nature, I am not sure I am explaining that where it comes across right, but try and read a little between the lines. I hope that helps a little bit in my explanation of her way of looking at things. After she had watched the show I mentioned it was amazing to me that instead of having a fit or denying what the show said, she instead found it very enlightening and admitted her growing up in a small town had biased her to thinking of christianity as a 'white religeon and it had not occcured to her to think any diferently.

I am glad you got a laugh out of the way I phrased what I did, that was my intention, and I truly hope your family learns to accept the person you are with based on who he is, not on what color his skin is. Besides, something else that might make her think a little bit is to point out that according to genetic studies done, all people came from the central area of africa and color is merely an adaptation to where they migrated to. I am sure she doesn't feel that flowers of different color are any less pretty, say a yellow rose instead of a red one, but are both created by God to live on the earth and bring joy to those who see them. People are people, whether they have less pigment because they lived far enough north they could not produce as much vitamin D from their skin and so became paler to absorb more light or if they live in the jungles of south america and needed to be slightly darker for protection from the sun, all the way to very very dark to keep from becoming sunburned every time they stepped outside. After all ask her is she loves you any less when you get a tan, that is the same thing as his skin being even darker, just another way nature has to help us all survive.

Carnus

PinkOrchid said:

Very nice post, Carnus. It all seems so ridiculously silly when we look at the simple biology of it, doesn't it?

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Extremely silly, it is even silly if you look at things like continue genetic diversity, society purposefully wants us to reduce the variety in our genetic makeup by only being with those that are similar to what we are in makeup If we did that and had smaller genetic pool it would be a disaster.

Carnus