How to get my son to LISTEN. *sigh*

Okay, here's the deal...

I am a single mother of two great kids...my son is five and my daughter is four. They are usually very, very obedient, friendly, kind...loving. All those wonderful things. I am so very proud of them.

This past week, my son has been acting STRANGELY. He refuses to listen to me. Period. I tell him to pick up his toys, and he flat-out refuses. I ask him what he wants for dinner, give him two or three choices, and he gets upset because he wants something else...even when those choices are all his favorites! When I told him to come inside this evening, he threw a tantrum. A real, honest-to-God tantrum. When I told him to close the door, he looked at me and deliberately opened it wider. I was amazed at his behavior, which is nothing like the boy I have raised!

There is nothing adverse going on at school...I checked with his teacher, and he has been just like always, no problems at all. He is in counseling after my ex-fiance and I ended our relationship a few months ago, and his counselor says he hasn't been acting differently in their sessions. She was quite puzzled by his behavior as well, and will try to draw him out a little about it at their next session, which is about a week away.

I should also mention that he has never been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD or anything along those lines, and he is not on any medications for anything.

Right now, in fact, he is in his room...in another 'time out'. This time it was because I told him to come inside when it got dark and he not only refused, but ran into the backyard and yelled that he would NOT come inside. No matter what I ask him to do, he refuses. It is like an extreme show of independence...though it is getting ridiculous. It has been a week, and this power struggle is wearing us both down.

I'm looking for ideas on what to do here. He has never acted this way before, and I am at a loss. I know all the advice about ignoring the tantrums, putting him in time-out, all that...but damn. I don't know how to handle a five-year-old who is determined to live life his OWN way and not listen to mommy anymore. *sigh*

What can I do?

S.

Maybe the time outs aren't working anymore Sheath? Are there things in his room that are capturing his attention so that it mightn't really matter to him if he's sent there for a little while? Are there any other consequences that you could try applying?

When you word it to him to pick up his toys, are you asking 'do you want to pick them up now?'...I don't imagine so, but thought it would be worth a shot to ask.

I doubt if I can add much to what you already know, but have you tried talking with him about where his behavior might be coming from? I'm sure he's fully aware that he is acting differently toward you and may even have some sense of where it originates.

Kids can be amazingly perceptive about their own behavior. When our oldest was barely 2 he had to be removed from his daycare center because he was biting other children when he got upset. After the third such event the administrators asked us to find another facility altogether. My wife brought him home and over a cup of cocoa asked him if he knew why he had to come home. He said, "My bite Lisa to come home." Clearly he was unhappy in that facility (it was large and he was an only child at the time). We found a daycare home for him and he never bit another person ever.

Maybe you've already tried this, but if not, it might help.

Good luck. I know how trying this can be.

purplecrayon said:

Maybe the time outs aren't working anymore Sheath? Are there things in his room that are capturing his attention so that it mightn't really matter to him if he's sent there for a little while? Are there any other consequences that you could try applying?

When you word it to him to pick up his toys, are you asking 'do you want to pick them up now?'...I don't imagine so, but thought it would be worth a shot to ask.

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Thanks for responding...and welcome to lit, by the way.

You are right...the time-outs don't seem to be working anymore. I have moved to grounding him from certain things...from a movie he wants to see, from doing this or that...and it works to a point. But it seems he only acts out more once he realizes that yes, mommy means what she says when she says 'you're grounded'.

I'm not sure what other consequences would work.

When it comes to the toys, we have always had a rule in this house...you can play with what you want, where you want, but it has to be picked up before bedtime. I start reminding them about two hours before bedtime, that those toys have to be picked up. Up until this week, he has been great about it. My daughter has continued to pick up, but last night she came to me and said, 'this isn't fair, mommy...I pick up my toys AND his and he won't do it anymore.' She has a point.

So tonight I informed him that he would be picking up his toys, just like he was expected...and lo and behold, another tantrum.

A friend suggested that I tell him those toys must be picked up, or they go into the garbage can once bedtime rolls around. And then have the garbage bag ready when that time comes. But I don't know if I have the heart for that...do you think this would be an effective technique? Has anyone ever tried it?

Grrrrrr.

S.

midwestyankee said:

I doubt if I can add much to what you already know, but have you tried talking with him about where his behavior might be coming from? I'm sure he's fully aware that he is acting differently toward you and may even have some sense of where it originates.

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Thanks for the story, and the suggestion. I'm glad things worked out with your little one.

I have tried sitting down and talking with him, and his response is always along the lines of 'I don't want to talk to you'.

Which just slams me right in the heart, because he has never said anything like that before, either.

S.

sheath said:

Thanks for the story, and the suggestion. I'm glad things worked out with your little one.

I have tried sitting down and talking with him, and his response is always along the lines of 'I don't want to talk to you'.

Which just slams me right in the heart, because he has never said anything like that before, either.

S.

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Then I think he may have answered your question, didn't he? Something is troubling him and either it's something he associates with you or it's something he feels he can't tell you about. Perhaps this is a delayed reaction to your separation. Perhaps it's something else. In any event, at least you can pass this on to his counselor, if you haven't already, who can help unravel the problem.

Oh, and our "little one," as you put it, is in his third year of college. I won't trouble you with any further stories so you can focus on the situation at hand. But they do grow up and they do develop admirable ambitions regardless of where they are when they are five.

In my opinion, he is being a boy and just doing the rebellion thing. They go thru a stage like that and then at about 6 they become that sweet, lovable, little boy that they always have been.

The other thing is that if you haven't already told him that the problems between you and the ex isn't something that he caused or HE could have prevented then try that too.

Boys will get into this protective mode and it will cause all kinds of problems. If he is spending time with anyone else, make sure that they are not telling him that he is the man of the house and that his job is to protect you and his little sister.

At his age, he might not understand why you hurt, but he knows that you do. That might be what you are seeing as well. His confusion and being upset at himself for not being able to keep you from being hurt.

sheath said:

Thanks for responding...and welcome to lit, by the way.

You are right...the time-outs don't seem to be working anymore. I have moved to grounding him from certain things...from a movie he wants to see, from doing this or that...and it works to a point. But it seems he only acts out more once he realizes that yes, mommy means what she says when she says 'you're grounded'.

I'm not sure what other consequences would work.

When it comes to the toys, we have always had a rule in this house...you can play with what you want, where you want, but it has to be picked up before bedtime. I start reminding them about two hours before bedtime, that those toys have to be picked up. Up until this week, he has been great about it. My daughter has continued to pick up, but last night she came to me and said, 'this isn't fair, mommy...I pick up my toys AND his and he won't do it anymore.' She has a point.

So tonight I informed him that he would be picking up his toys, just like he was expected...and lo and behold, another tantrum.

A friend suggested that I tell him those toys must be picked up, or they go into the garbage can once bedtime rolls around. And then have the garbage bag ready when that time comes. But I don't know if I have the heart for that...do you think this would be an effective technique? Has anyone ever tried it?

Grrrrrr.

S.

Click to expand...

I have had it happen... to me as the kid. It is effective, and you don't have to actually throw them away.... just act like it. Put the bag in the garage until later, then store it in a closet until after this passes...

sheath said:

Thanks for responding...and welcome to lit, by the way.

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Thanks for the welcome...I've been registered here a long long time, but am pretty shy here and there, so I haven't been saying too much.

You are right...the time-outs don't seem to be working anymore. I have moved to grounding him from certain things...from a movie he wants to see, from doing this or that...and it works to a point. But it seems he only acts out more once he realizes that yes, mommy means what she says when she says 'you're grounded'.

I'm not sure what other consequences would work.

Click to expand...

It's often difficult to find what consequence will work, but it's very important to be consistent and that you follow through with what you've said you're going to do. Be practical in picking your consequences, as it shouldn't be a chore for you to have to follow through with it.

When it comes to the toys, we have always had a rule in this house...you can play with what you want, where you want, but it has to be picked up before bedtime. I start reminding them about two hours before bedtime, that those toys have to be picked up. Up until this week, he has been great about it. My daughter has continued to pick up, but last night she came to me and said, 'this isn't fair, mommy...I pick up my toys AND his and he won't do it anymore.' She has a point.

So tonight I informed him that he would be picking up his toys, just like he was expected...and lo and behold, another tantrum.

A friend suggested that I tell him those toys must be picked up, or they go into the garbage can once bedtime rolls around. And then have the garbage bag ready when that time comes. But I don't know if I have the heart for that...do you think this would be an effective technique? Has anyone ever tried it?

Grrrrrr.

S.

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what about having him play with fewer toys at a time - i.e. having to put whatever he's playing with before he gets something else out.

As much as you can, try to ignore the tantrum, as he may be doing it to get a reaction out of you. If he is trying to communicate with you during the time that he is upset, tell him that you will listen to him when he can talk calmly.

I would go ahead with taking his toys away from him for a short time - this will help him to learn natural consequences, and hopefully minimize the behaviour.

If I think of anything else, I'll be back...

You know, I know YOU have sat down with the little man and he won't talk to you. Has your ex-husband had these problems with him too? Whether or not he has, could you ask him to sit down with the boy and try to talk to him? If he doesn't want to talk to MOM, it might be possible that he'll talk to DAD.

Might there be a problem at Dad's house? Is he having problems with Dad's girlfriend? Those sorts of problems can affect his wanting to talk to you. You're both GIRLS. If he doesn't like the way Daddy's girlfriend acts with Daddy, or talks about you, or whatever else could hypothetically be happening, then he may be reluctant to talk about that to you. In that case, he'd likely be reluctant to talk about it with Daddy too, and the counselor is the best bet to draw it out.

My point is, try different approaches as to who sits down with him and tries to draw out his problems. You may have the best luck in the most unlikely of places.

Heck, try Daddy's girlfriend. She doesn't seem to be too bad. (I'm just saying the other stuff because MY dad's first girlfriend after the divorce was E-VILLE.)

My three.
Ang

Right now, in fact, he is in his room...in another 'time out'. This time it was because I told him to come inside when it got dark and he not only refused, but ran into the backyard and yelled that he would NOT come inside. No matter what I ask him to do, he refuses. It is like an extreme show of independence...though it is getting ridiculous. It has been a week, and this power struggle is wearing us both down.

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Yikes, I can almost hear all you ladies bashing me for this one, but here goes...

Two years ago, when my 3 year old son refused to put his clothes on after taking a bath? I threw him outside into the January cold and darkness still wet AND naked until he agreed to put them on - FOREVER. Problem solved; he's never given either of us a problem again.

When he refused to stop begging for a toy at 4 years old at Legoland? I dragged his sceaming ass out of the park and threw him in the back seat of the minivan until he finally fell asleep, woke up, and promised not to mention the toy again. He has not done so since even while at Disneyland, ToysRUs, or anywhere else.

When he refused to go to bed one evening (now in his 5th year)? I took his favorite toy and made him stand in the doorway and watch me hurl it into the street, then shut the door. He now knows if he gives us ANY problems going to bed (or at any step in the process) - the street is waiting to claim another toy. Oh, this also worked when he wouldn't shut up about a wrapped X-mas present, which ended up in the street still wrapped.

You get the drift.

The rebellion has been quelled and he's back to behaving like a human being.

Whoaaaa....can you see that boy on top of a watertower at age 17 with a high powered rifle cause you threw his toy out in the street??


S.
Although we have similiar situations when it comes to children and ages, and I too try to treat my 5 year-old as though she is an adult as much as possible, try sitting him down and saying to him.."guy, you gotta help me out here cause I need you" and "We all have to live in this house and I know its hard to be a big guy all the time, but we have to be this way.."

It may be some issue that he doesn't feel he can talk to you about as well. Whether that is because he isnt' sure how you will react or could it be that the change in your life has brought about changes in him as well?

If these don't work, I am not above using the belt or switch to reinforce the lesson. Time-outs IMO were made up by people who never had children or never had to raise them.

Then again it could just be a stage and another step in the pushing the boundries of what he can and cant' get away with.
Then again..I dont' have a clue what I am doing with my 5 year-old either. LOL

Just my two pennies. Hang in there...they will grow up and move away someday

B

freddyandeddy said:

Yikes, I can almost hear all you ladies bashing me for this one, but here goes...

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Amazingly enough, I ALMOST agree with you here. Not necessarily to that degree, but... (I know, I'm shocked too!!!)

My favorite discipline story is from my OTHER bestest friend, Jaileigh (said Holly... yeah, I know.)

She was throwing a tantrum many many moons ago in some random store. Her mother couldn't really afford to leave at that point, as they were almost done with their shopping and they had a FULL load of whatever it was they were buying. For the fun of it, we'll call them groceries.

So, anyhow, her mother gets frustrated and decides that possibly the way to nip this embarrassment in the bud, as it were, is to embarrass her daughter in the middle of the store. So what does Mom do? (I love this woman!) She gets ON THE FLOOR, in the MIDDLE of the supermarket, and throws a fit right next to her daugher. Jaileigh shut up in a big fat hurry, and never threw another tantrum again. Not even at home.

Oh yes. When Alekz is old enough and tries this with me... I will draw on Jaileigh's mom's experience. And embarrass the HELL out of my son.


Ang

Thank you so much for all the advice!

Right now he is sleeping...finally...and looking like an angel. Of course. lol

I'm not sure what to do yet, but I'm going to look over these responses tonight and think on them.

And yes, Ang...a talk with his Daddy is definitely in order. I'm VERY lucky in that Bill and I have never once disagreed on the children, and we back each other up unwaveringly when it comes to discipline or matters like this...so I know I will have an ally in him, thank goodness. He's a great dad.

purplecrayon, thanks for following up with my comments. I appreciate what you had to say. Especially about choosing my 'consequences' carefully. I'll take that one to heart, definitely.

missingmeds...I believe you are right, that he is probably feeling the effects of the breakup on a level he hasn't before...and he does know I've been hurting. Most of the time he seems to understand why, since we have been through family counseling as well and have discussed it...but after all...he's five. Heaven knows what goes through his head at that age.

freddyandeddy...WOW. No, I'm not going to flame you or bash you for it, because honestly, I have had moments where I wanted to do those things. Anything to assert the authority, and remind him that *I* am the head of this household, by God! But I can never quite go through with it. He did pick up his toys tonight, but I think it was only because I DID threaten him with the garbage bag. He took one look at that and we had a staring match for all of two very LONG minutes before he started mumbling under his breath and throwing the toys into the bucket. But he did it.

firefighter...it is GOOD to know I'm not alone in feeling completely lost with a five-year-old, lol. Nothing on this planet can make me feel more inferior than a little child, which seems to be so completely wrong, but hey, there it is.

I'm not sure what to do yet, but...at this point, I know the garbage bag works, and his father and I will be having a long talk.

I love those kids more than life itself. But times like this...oh, boy, can I want to kick the hell out of something. Or at least scream at the top of my lungs.

S.

sheath said:

A friend suggested that I tell him those toys must be picked up, or they go into the garbage can once bedtime rolls around. And then have the garbage bag ready when that time comes. But I don't know if I have the heart for that...do you think this would be an effective technique? Has anyone ever tried it?

Click to expand...

A friend of mine having a similar problem followed through and picked up the toys - and put them in a garabage bag to emphasize the point she had the child put them out by the garbage can. (meaning to go get them after the kids went to bed). It backfired when the trash company running late that day picked up the trash before she got back out there.
They all learned a valuable lesson.

but alas - hopefully it is just a phase your son is going through. don't let him get the best of you! - remember your the adult and in charge. Try that if he refuses to pick up toys and If you or sister pick them up they become yours. he has to earn them back, with good behavior.

CelticFrog said:

So, anyhow, her mother gets frustrated and decides that possibly the way to nip this embarrassment in the bud, as it were, is to embarrass her daughter in the middle of the store. So what does Mom do? (I love this woman!) She gets ON THE FLOOR, in the MIDDLE of the supermarket, and throws a fit right next to her daugher. Jaileigh shut up in a big fat hurry, and never threw another tantrum again. Not even at home.

Oh yes. When Alekz is old enough and tries this with me... I will draw on Jaileigh's mom's experience. And embarrass the HELL out of my son.


Ang

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LMAO!

I actually have the nerve to do this. But he's never tried it in public.

We'll see if he ever does.

S.

shmily said:

A friend of mine having a similar problem followed through and picked up the toys - and put them in a garabage bag to emphasize the point she had the child put them out by the garbage can. (meaning to go get them after the kids went to bed). It backfired when the trash company running late that day picked up the trash before she got back out there.
They all learned a valuable lesson.

but alas - hopefully it is just a phase your son is going through. don't let him get the best of you! - remember your the adult and in charge. Try that if he refuses to pick up toys and If you or sister pick them up they become yours. he has to earn them back, with good behavior.

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I'm sure it is just a phase. I just pray for the strength to get through it without ripping my hair out.

It is good to know that the garbage bag thing has been tried before...it makes me feel not-so-guilty now that I have tried it, too. *blushing*

S.

sheath said:

I'm sure it is just a phase. I just pray for the strength to get through it without ripping my hair out.

It is good to know that the garbage bag thing has been tried before...it makes me feel not-so-guilty now that I have tried it, too. *blushing*

S.

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What?!!? my testimony as to it's effictiveness wasn't enough? : pout: <runs off to hide my toys before she comes with the trashbag>

firefighter02 said:

If these don't work, I am not above using the belt or switch to reinforce the lesson. Time-outs IMO were made up by people who never had children or never had to raise them.

B

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I think that i have to agree with firefighter on the time-outs...I had an instructor in one of my behaviour classes who was dead set against them, and I guess that it makes sense because it doesn't really teach the child anything, I don't think. And as I was thinking earlier, what sort of discipline is it if a child is taken away from a situation where they've caused some sort of disruption and placed into a bedroom where they potentially have hundreds of things to do.

I worked with an afterschool program where the policy was to send the child to a bench in the hallway if they did something wrong, and usually I would warn them (unless the safety of that child or a peer was at risk, and then it was immediate consequences), but rather than leave them on the bench by themselves, to sit until their alloted time was up, I would sit there with them, and ask them 1) what their understanding was of why I had asked them to sit there, 2) what the dangers/problem was with their behaviour, and 3) what they could have done instead. It seemed to be a pretty effective method.

As far as putting a 3 year-old out into the cold weather naked, and throwing toys into the street...personally I'm against anything like that, and feel that the consequences should be a little more related to the offense. Especially with that age.

sheath said:

Thank you so much for all the advice!


purplecrayon, thanks for following up with my comments. I appreciate what you had to say. Especially about choosing my 'consequences' carefully. I'll take that one to heart, definitely.


S.

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I'm in the middle of a Non Violent Crisis Intervention course, and earlier this afternoon we were talking about the importance of not putting consequences into play that you weren't willing to enforce. My instructor said that her 13 year old has never been grounded because of his behaviour, and that she wouldn't likely ever ground him as it would mean that she would have to stay home with him to enforce the behaviour...and that it wouldn't be realistic as she works. I know that it doesn't really apply to your situation, but it came to mind when I was making my reply.
I think that it's so wonderful that you're actively seeking alternative ways of dealing with his behaviour change.

Another helpful thing could be to ask his teacher what sort of strategy s/he employs to get the children to pick up their belongings. S/he may have some ideas for strategies you could use as well, especially if they have proven to be effective for her.

Amazingly enough, I ALMOST agree with you here. Not necessarily to that degree, but... (I know, I'm shocked too!!!)

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Celtic,

If you talk like this again, I will take away your sex toys and throw you into the street wet and naked!

Nope. I have 'em locked up.

Anyways, the SPs would arrest you, and then I'd have to explain WHY I got thrown into the street that way.

I can justify anything, but that would be a stretch.

Ang

Wow.

Oh, gosh - Sheath, you are so amazing. So are good parents everywhere. I cannot imagine ever having that kind of patience. I'd be with freddyandeddy, 100%.

I remember that when I was a kid, I had a toy xylaphone (spelling?) It's the thing with different sized metal bits you bang on with a wooden hammer to make tones, and I would not quit with it while my mom was on the phone. She said that if I didn't quit, it was going to Pittsburgh.

It went to Pittsburgh. In my family, we lived along a creek in PA which dumped into a bigger river which went to the Alleghany, which went on to Pittsburgh.

So, she swung that toy around on its cord, above her head a few times from our deck, and that thing flew a good 30' away into the stream, floated into the creek, and so on.

Also, flash floods - if you don't put your (plastic wading pool, pup tent, bike, sandbox toys) away before it rains, they're going to Pittsburgh. My brother's big plan was to move to Pittsburgh and open a second hand toy store when he grew up.

So - if you make the threat, back it up, and don't stint. Use that trash bag! You've gotten lots of kind & gentle advice, I'm sure you'll use it as best you can - good luck with whatever course you take! I know this post is somewhat off topic, but you can be hardassed without sending him into nutzo land when he's in high school - I now think it's funny the stuff my mom did.

midwestyankee said:

Then I think he may have answered your question, didn't he? Something is troubling him and either it's something he associates with you or it's something he feels he can't tell you about. Perhaps this is a delayed reaction to your separation.

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There you go. midwestyankee hit the nail on the head with that one, dear.

Your son has been through a lot, just as you have. As a man who was once a boy (yeah, can ya believe it???), I remember what it felt like. When I was six, my parents separated for a year. I was suddenly, along with my brothers, the 'man' of the house. And let me tell you, no matter how strong mom was or how much she took care of, a boy is taught to feel as though he has to step up to the plate. And it gets hard to handle.

It doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong. On the contrary, I have seen you with those children and I can vouch for the fact that you are a great mom. It just means the hellish few months you have gone through are finally catching up with the little man. But remember, you have hit all this with a preemptive strike. You have him in counseling already. You are in close contact with his teacher. You and Bill are very close when it comes to the children. You have laid the groundwork for your little ones to weather this crisis.

You have done all you can. Now be there for him and ride it out. It is all you can do.

Your patience is extraordinary!

I'm thinking of you.

freddyandeddy said:

Yikes, I can almost hear all you ladies bashing me for this one, but here goes ... The rebellion has been quelled and he's back to behaving like a human being.

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Sheath, I'm sorry to do this in your thread (but I'll make up for it by saying something later).

Freddy,
You made a 3 year old stand wet and naked outside in the dark and cold? Your job is to make your children feel loved, protected, and wanted no matter how badly they behave. I'm sure that you think that you made your point but at what cost? You took a 3 year old and burned all sorts of foul things into his head. Daddy will cast him out naked into the cold dark night if he doesn't behave. Sure he behaves, but only because he's terrified that daddy won't love him and will put him out again. Throwing favorite toys in the street because he doesn't go to bed when you want him to? If daddy doesn't get his way he throws a tantrum and takes things and throws them in the street.

Get a clue man. Your kids deserve better. Kids test limits. It's a part of how they learn. You are the adult (and an educator, I might add). The ends don't justify the means.