Punctuating speech

I've just noticed this in the published authors thread:

"I swore not to harm you." He grinned. "I never said I wouldn't seduce you."

In a thread in the Eds Forum, Dr M asks

I want to see if I can get this straight.

A. “He acted alone,” he said. “But someone helped him escape.”

but

B. “He acted alone.” He turned to the butler accusingly, “but someone helped him escape.”

or

C. “He acted alone.” He turned to the butler accusingly. “But someone helped him escape.”

or what? What combination of commas, periods, and capitalization is correct?

---dr.M.



Now, I assumed Snooper was right with his answer:

“He acted alone,” he said, “but someone helped him escape.”

But now I'm not so sure. Does anybody here know if there's an adehered to convention, or can full-stops replace commas? Is it more of a stylistic choice? I notice drM often uses full-stops, and his writing is very good.

Thinking about changing my style, dl.

dirtylover said:

I've just noticed this in the published authors thread:

"I swore not to harm you." He grinned. "I never said I wouldn't seduce you."

In a thread in the Eds Forum, Dr M asks

I want to see if I can get this straight.

A. “He acted alone,” he said. “But someone helped him escape.”

but

B. “He acted alone.” He turned to the butler accusingly, “but someone helped him escape.”

or

C. “He acted alone.” He turned to the butler accusingly. “But someone helped him escape.”

or what? What combination of commas, periods, and capitalization is correct?

---dr.M.



Now, I assumed Snooper was right with his answer:

“He acted alone,” he said, “but someone helped him escape.”

But now I'm not so sure. Does anybody here know if there's an adehered to convention, or can full-stops replace commas? Is it more of a stylistic choice? I notice drM often uses full-stops, and his writing is very good.

Thinking about changing my style, dl.

Click to expand...

Yes, Snooper was right.

These are the rules (as I know and use them), and I've quoted these to others many times before, in emails (just in case anyone thinks, I've seen that before!).

Basically, the rules are this:

- Each time a different person speaks, that line of dialogue should begin with a new paragraph.

- There should always be a full stop (period, sorry - I'm English!), a comma, a question mark, or even an exclamation mark at the end of each piece of dialogue, before the closing speech marks.

- Each line of dialogue should start with a capital letter, even if it isn't at the beginning of an actual sentence.

- If you are writing he said/she said (or something liked he replied/she replied), after dialogue, a comma should always be used at the end of the speech, and the first letter of he or she should always be lower case, eg. "Only for you," she said.

- Likewise, if you are stating he said/she said before the piece of dialogue, there should be a comma after said, and this rule should be followed every time you lead into dialogue in the same line of text (ie. if you are not starting a new paragraph, because a different person is speaking, for example). Eg. She looked in my eyes and said, "Thanks." (Also, note the capital 'T').

Here's an example of some dialogue, from one of my own stories (Secret Games)...

He gave her ass a slap and said, “Good girl.”

“You’re bad!” she said, and sank down, onto the bed.

“Yeah, and don’t you just love me for it?”

“You know I do.”

She gave him a grin and got off the bed, before walking to the shower. “Will you be gone, by the time I’m done?”

Full stops should be used at the end of dialogue only if it is clear who is speaking (therefore no need for he/she said) and/or, an action follows, or preceeds the dialogue.

I hope that makes some kind of sense!

Lou

re

tx Lou,

so: "Hello," he said, "how are you?" is correct
(or: "Hello," he said, "How are you?" ?)

but is: "Don't do that." He moved away. "Now, be gentle." ?

Sorry, should have read your instructions better.

Re: re

dirtylover said:

tx Lou,

so: "Hello," he said, "how are you?" is correct
(or: "Hello," he said, "How are you?" ?)

but is: "Don't do that." He moved away. "Now, be gentle." ?

Sorry, should have read your instructions better.

Click to expand...

The first one of your "Hello's" is technically correct, although, I would've used: "Hello, how are you?" he said.

And, yes, "Don't do that." He moved away. "Now, be gentle." is technically correct, although I wouldn't use that piece of dialogue in quite that way. But, I do know you were just using it for the sake of a quick example.

Lou

Hmm. I never really thought that the grammar of the dialouge and the narrative had anything to do with each other. Ok ok ok, you are correct, and I will do like that from now on. But of you ask me...

"Hello," he said.

...is a pretty strange line.

"Hello." he said.

would be much more logical, since he in this case indeed says "Hello." and not "Hello," (as if continuing). What is in a quotation, stays in a quptation, just as with a parenthesis.

Right? No? Do I make any sense?

dirtylover said:

"I swore not to harm you." He grinned. "I never said I wouldn't seduce you."

Click to expand...

As punctuated, "He Grinned" is a "parenthetical action" and NOT a dialogue tag. i.e He said a sentence. He acted. He said another sentence.

I've always had a bit of a problem with actions used as dialogue tags -- how exactly do you "Grin" a sentence?" or "Laugh" a sentence? or "Scowl" a sentence?

You can say somthing with a grin, laugh or scowl accompanying it, but you can't really say that you Grinned, Laughed or Scowled the words.

Other actions like beckoning, waving, walking, etc are often associated with dialogue but are separate from the dialogue and shouldn't be used as "dialogue tags." Dialogue tags should apply only to identifying the speaker and/or clarifying the delivery of the dialogue when the dialogue itself doesn't make it clear.


"But, Mom! Everyone else gets to go" is clearly "whining" so there isn't any real point in adding "she whined" unless there are more than two participants in the dialogue.

For me, the solution to questions about punctuation of dialogue tags is most often decided by removing the explicit dialogue tags and identifying the speakers in other ways.

I've found that if there is a question about how a piece of dialogue should be punctuated, it's usually got other problems besides mere punctuation issues and re-writing the whole bit clarifies the punctuation dilemna when the other problems are fixed.

It IS possible to write a story that is entirely dialogue and does NOT contain one dialogue tag -- Although it's apparently not possible to write a great story that way.

(I've written one, but it's no longer posted anywhere because it scored so low when it was posted. If anyone wants to read it, PM or e-mail me.)

If you need more than Tatelou's rules, try "Teaching Your Characters To Speak," by WhisperSecret in the How To category or the writer's resources link.

Linbido said:

Hmm. I never really thought that the grammar of the dialouge and the narrative had anything to do with each other. Ok ok ok, you are correct, and I will do like that from now on. But of you ask me...

"Hello," he said.

...is a pretty strange line.

"Hello." he said.

would be much more logical, since he in this case indeed says "Hello." and not "Hello," (as if continuing). What is in a quotation, stays in a quptation, just as with a parenthesis.

Right? No? Do I make any sense?

Click to expand...

Lin, I do get what you are saying, but you shouldn't think of it as what the "he" is saying, more what you, as the narrator, are saying.

"Hello," he said. That does sound correct, if you think of it in terms of a narrator speaking a story. It is one complete sentence, with only one clause; it wouldn't work as two sentences.

I am so crap at explaining stuff! I wish I'd just left it all to Wierd Harold.

Lou

P.S. I know how to do it, but buggered if I know all the correct terms.

re

Thanks Harold, much appreciated. Lou, you do yourself down, I find your explanations very helpful.

I think figuring out the technical minutiae is part of what makes a writer good. Personally if I read "Hello." he said. in a story, I'd stop reading (in most cases).

Do other people think good grammar and punctuation are essential for a good story? One of my hangups when I'm writing is that my punctuation could be better.

dl

ps
sorry to be a pain in the ass, but is this punctuated correctly:

“Your father was a great man,” Ajiam nodded as he said this, “he fought the oppression of our people and he was well respected. It has been a long time since our people were able to live freely, a long time since the Sicals didn’t occupy Passnia and a long time since filthy, imperialistic Armadians didn’t govern the world.”

or should I use full-stops to separate the dialogue and the narration?

Ahhh, I'm so dense!

Re: re

dirtylover said:

Thanks Harold, much appreciated. Lou, you do yourself down, I find your explanations very helpful.

I think figuring out the technical minutiae is part of what makes a writer good. Personally if I read "Hello." he said. in a story, I'd stop reading (in most cases).

Do other people think good grammar and punctuation are essential for a good story? One of my hangups when I'm writing is that my punctuation could be better.

dl

ps
sorry to be a pain in the ass, but is this punctuated correctly:

“Your father was a great man,” Ajiam nodded as he said this, “he fought the oppression of our people and he was well respected. It has been a long time since our people were able to live freely, a long time since the Sicals didn’t occupy Passnia and a long time since filthy, imperialistic Armadians didn’t govern the world.”

or should I use full-stops to separate the dialogue and the narration?

Ahhh, I'm so dense!

Click to expand...

DL,

I think (but I could be wrong), the commas should be full stops. But, as Wierd Harold said, instead of trying to figure out whether or not it's correct, try a different way of saying it.

I'd use this:

“Your father was a great man,” Ajiam said, nodding as he spoke. “He fought the oppression of our people and he was well respected. It has been a long time since our people were able to live freely, a long time since the Sicals didn’t occupy Passnia and a long time since filthy, imperialistic Armadians didn’t govern the world.”

Lou

re

Ah, pure genius. That's much better, I'll change it now.

Re: re

dirtylover said:

Ah, pure genius. That's much better, I'll change it now.

Click to expand...

Blimey, I've had a lot of things said to me in my time, but never that. Thanks, glad I could help!

Lou

Re: re

dirtylover said:

sorry to be a pain in the ass, but is this punctuated correctly:

“Your father was a great man,” Ajiam nodded as he said this, “he fought the oppression of our people and he was well respected. It has been a long time since our people were able to live freely, a long time since the Sicals didn’t occupy Passnia and a long time since filthy, imperialistic Armadians didn’t govern the world.”

or should I use full-stops to separate the dialogue and the narration?

Ahhh, I'm so dense!

Click to expand...

I would say no, it's not correct and full stops would be better.

Actually, this is a pretty good example of what I said about if there's a question about punctuation there are usually other problems as well.

Ajiam nodded as he said this

The italicized portion is, to my mind, a redundancy -- Of course he nodded while he said this, or youwouldn't have interrupted the speaker to make note of it.

Ajiam's nod is also a non-verbal part of the dialogue that is roughly equivalent of him saying, "Yes, I agree," to the speaker -- something that I treat as if it were a spoken agreement and give a paragraph of it's own; usually only as a way to break a long monologue into smaller blocks. If I don't need to break up the dialogue I'll generally move the response to the following paragraph instead:

“Your father was a great man. He fought the oppression of our people and he was well respected...."

Ajiam nodded thoughtfully throughout the explanation. He considered his response carefully.

The best test of whterh a dialogue tag or a parenthetical actionis required, is to delete it and see how the meaning changes. If the meaning doesn't change, leave it deleted.

Tatelou, Your explanation is necessary for mine to build on. You presented them far more concisely than I've ever managed.

Re: re

dirtylover said:

Ah, pure genius. That's much better, I'll change it now.

Click to expand...

Obviously, Tatelou deciphered what you were trying to say better than I did.

Our two interpretations are a good illustration of the importance of tagging dialogue clearly and correctly.

Re: Re: Punctuating speech

Weird Harold said:

It IS possible to write a story that is entirely dialogue and does NOT contain one dialogue tag -- Although it's apparently not possible to write a great story that way.

Click to expand...

I've done it, twice they've been on this site for over 12 months and are standing at about 4.12 & 4.3 respectively and neither contains one single line of narrative description, or one single dialogue tag.

Both, in my mind, were experiments when I wrote them, and both have major faults in my eyes, (you ever tried to describe a seduction and sex scene without being able to describe it), the sex acts are crap in both in my opinion, but someone must like them.

To make it harder for myself, both stories contain dialgoue only between more than two characters, in one it is three people speaking between each other, in the other, up to six persons chin-wagging at once.

As most of you know, I don't subscribe to forced proper English in light hearted or amateur works, as long as it's readable, and gives me a boner, that'll do for me.

If any of you can be bothered, take a look at my two dialogue only offerings, and feel free to comment or bollock me for them

'Millie's Valentine Present', and, 'Charlie's Birthday Present'. I love giving presents

re

Harold - thanks, I see what you mean about eliminating unnecessary portions of the tag. I've taken that to heart (since I'm already applying it to what I'm writing). I think the text I gave was particularly clumsy (and out of context), which is why, maybe,you didn't realise Ajiam is the speaker.

re All dialogue- sounds horrible, you must be a good talker pops! (edit: made me laugh, it just felt like there were loads of people around me, chattering away. Like your style )

Lou - -you've never been called a genius before? Perhaps your T-shirt is distracting from your intellect

Linbido said:

Hmm. I never really thought that the grammar of the dialouge and the narrative had anything to do with each other. Ok ok ok, you are correct, and I will do like that from now on. But of you ask me...

"Hello," he said.

...is a pretty strange line.

"Hello." he said.

would be much more logical, since he in this case indeed says "Hello." and not "Hello," (as if continuing). What is in a quotation, stays in a quptation, just as with a parenthesis.

Right? No? Do I make any sense?

Click to expand...

I was on a little crusade about this, but I've abandoned it. I think the covention of always using a comma at the close of a bit of spreech in front of an attributive (a "he said" or "she said") is inconsistent with other conventions of grammar. For example, it's perfectly fine to write "Hello!" he said. or "Hello?" he called. and these stops are just as full as the stop from a period. So it seems like it should be acceptable to write "Hello." he said. At least it seems that way to me.

I did it for a while. I think I still might do it on occasion, without really noticing, but I've pretty much given up on my one-man attempt to bring some consistency to the laws of grammar. Weird and illogical they are, and weird and illogical they remain.

---dr.M.

Well, it seems like I've been very careful, thoruogh and consistent in my wrong way of punctuating speech. I too saw a quote as a sub sentence, something that should be left gramatically intact.

I think I might have even ended sentences with double dotting:
"Hello." he said, and scratched his balls before continuing, "My name is Bob.".

Not wery pwetty when I think of it. Strangely, not a single soul have complained so far.

/Ice

reDrM

Maybe

"Hello" he said

would be better.

But drM, I think a comma, although it may be illogical, reads the best.

eg
"Hello." he said.

makes you pause too long, cf w/

"Hello," he said.

!s and ?s necessarily break the natural cadence of the sentence, since their function is more important.

That's how I see it anyway.

Ice:

Re: re

dirtylover said:

re All dialogue- sounds horrible, you must be a good talker pops! (edit: made me laugh, it just felt like there was loads of people around me, chattering away. Like your style )

Click to expand...

I don't remember where I first saw or heard it, but i've come to agree with the statement, "Dialogue is both the easiest and hardest part of writing fiction."

Dialogue is easy because all you have to do is report a literal transcription of your character's words (or thoughts.)

Dialogue is hard because words alone don't always convey the full meanings in a conversation -- there is more to a dialogue than mere words; there are emotions, intonations, body language and sarcasm to change the actual meaning of the words and they are hard to include without destroying the natural flow of a scene or story.

re

I started reading The Blind Assassin by Margaret Atwood a while ago. In some parts she doesn't use speech marks to denote talking, and it reads very fluidly.

Is it speech marks that are redundant maybe?

Actually, just realised, the speech markless parts are where the protagonist is remembering conversations, in the present tense. Perhaps you need to be a skilful writer to pull off such flagrant variations of conventional puntuation.

Re: Re: Punctuating speech

Weird Harold said:

As punctuated, "He Grinned" is a "parenthetical action" and NOT a dialogue tag. i.e He said a sentence. He acted. He said another sentence.

I've always had a bit of a problem with actions used as dialogue tags -- how exactly do you "Grin" a sentence?" or "Laugh" a sentence? or "Scowl" a sentence?

Click to expand...

I would have some small disagreement here. "Grin" or "scowl" are not dialogue tags but "laugh" indicates sound and might be, under certain circumastances. "Did you really think that would work?" he laughed. or "Did you really think that would work?" he said, laughing. I believe either would be allright but I would prefer the first, partly to avoid overusing "said".

John O'Hara was a famous short story writer of the 30's to 50's, and he was a master of dialogue. He wrote several stories entirely in dialogue without a word of exposition, and they're so good that you don't even notice.

The thing about dialogue is, all written dialogue has to sound like speech, but most speech doesn't make for good dialogue. Just try and make sense of a verbatim transcript of a trial or a testimony. It's almost incomprehensible with all the "you know's" and "uhhh's" and unrecorded gestures.

---dr.M.

dr_mabeuse said:

John O'Hara was a famous short story writer of the 30's to 50's, and he was a master of dialogue. He wrote several stories entirely in dialogue without a word of exposition, and they're so good that you don't even notice.

The thing about dialogue is, all written dialogue has to sound like speech, but most speech doesn't make for good dialogue. Just try and make sense of a verbatim transcript of a trial or a testimony. It's almost incomprehensible with all the "you know's" and "uhhh's" and unrecorded gestures.

---dr.M.

Click to expand...

I find dialogue so much easier to write than narrative, just because you don't have to explain things, and in dialogue 'Perfect English' goes out of the window, it just doesn't translate into dialogue.

re

drM, could you recommend any books by O'Hara? I find it hard to imagine a book composed only of dialogue.

rePops

I enjoyed your dialogue only stories, but I felt as if I was overhearing a conversation, rather than actually being part of the action. You do it very skilfully, but I'm still to be convinced that, as drM says, it's possible to have a story where you don't notice the lack of narrative.