Dealing with changing group dynamics

**READ BEFORE YOU RESPOND**
I doubt if anyone's going to dig up such an old post, but there's no need to respond to this, as the issues discussed here have (mostly) been resolved.

Thanks

I apologize in advance for such a long-winded post, but here goes.

I’ve mentioned in my profile that I belong to a reading group. It’s pretty informal—every month we take turns meeting at our respective homes. It’s something that I’ve always looked forward to.

However, in the past couple of years or so, things have changed—and not for the better. I see two members as the source of a lot of this change.

One woman is chronically late. Not just 10-15 minutes late, but 60-90 minutes late EVERY time. She always has an excuse; one of them is that, according to her, we never get started on time, anyway. However, we weren’t starting on time because we were waiting for HER. We’ve stopped doing that, though, and she’s not terribly pleased, but she hasn’t changed her behavior. So it goes.

The newest member is the one who, for me, is causing problems. She’s in her late 40’s, and she’s lived alone all her adult life, so she’s used to doing what she wants when she wants it. She cries (literally) when she doesn’t get her way.

She has a long list of dietary restrictions/preferences. I do understand and respect that, but nothing that I do as a host is up to her exacting standards. It's really starting to bother me.

It seems like we’re always rescheduling because of her other activities. She wasn’t happy with the meeting’s start time because it interferes with her body clock and the scheduling of her bodily functions (I’m NOT making this up, people), so we moved the start time to an hour later than usual.

I always said that I’d stop participating in the group if it ceased to be fun, and I’m starting to feel that it’s no longer fun. Part of me says I should just suck it up, deal with it, and stay in the group; another part of me says I should take a bit of a breather. I’m reluctant to quit because two of the members are my best friends and I’m pretty friendly with a third member. I’d miss them very much. Furthermore, since I’m a stay-at-home mom, this group has become a vital social lifeline for me. That’s another reason I’m reluctant to give it up.

I realize that my concerns are petty. I also realize that any time that people belong to a group that there are going to be differences of opinion among the members. It just seems to me that things always ran more smoothly in the past.

I’m realistic. I KNOW that I can’t change other people’s behavior. However, I also know that MY reactions to their behavior are causing problems for ME, and it's something that I'd like to work on. Any ideas on how I can go about doing this?

Thanks for your input.

eilan:

take a breather. seriously. you are almost certainly not the only one who finds it annoying, aggravating or even maddening. sit out one or two meetings. perhaps the rest of the group will decide to meet without them. :>

ed

silverwhisper said:

take a breather. seriously. you are almost certainly not the only one who finds it annoying, aggravating or even maddening. sit out one or two meetings. perhaps the rest of the group will decide to meet without them. :>

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I've thought about not going to the meetings but still reading the books, at least temporarily. We have a member who does this. She contributes to the discussions via email.

I'm having dinner with my best friend this evening. I know that she was pretty pissed about things that happened during our most recent meeting and she wants to vent about some things. I suppose I'll be venting some more, too.

Fortunately, we don't meet until the end of June--at my house. And we're taking July off, as we always do. That should give me time to put things into perspective.

Now if we could just get away with the Murphy Brown "We're postponing the group until after Easter" approach. . .

it seems to me that if this new chick wants to be part of the group, she should assimilate to the group's norms. that's the way society has been since the beginning of time... why join something if it doesn't suit you????? same thing goes for the chronically late woman too.

the group comes before the individuals. if it doesn't, it ceases to be a group.

as far as the dietary issue goes, that can be a bit touchy. if they're REALLY serious health issues, let her bring her own shit to eat... none of the rest of you want to be responsible for her dying, i'm sure... so why risk it?

rant concluded.

I run a pagan group in my area, and due to some "members" we had to change the group. We now have an "inner circle", and an "outer circle" (neither of which are formally called that).

One woman is chronically late. Not just 10-15 minutes late, but 60-90 minutes late EVERY time. She always has an excuse; one of them is that, according to her, we never get started on time, anyway. However, we weren’t starting on time because we were waiting for HER. We’ve stopped doing that, though, and she’s not terribly pleased, but she hasn’t changed her behavior. So it goes.

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Good, do NOT change scheduling because someone is always late. That is always the beginning of a downfall.

The newest member is the one who, for me, is causing problems. She’s in her late 40’s, and she’s lived alone all her adult life, so she’s used to doing what she wants when she wants it. She cries (literally) when she doesn’t get her way.

She has a long list of dietary restrictions/preferences. I do understand and respect that, but nothing that I do as a host is up to her exacting standards. It's really starting to bother me.

It seems like we’re always rescheduling because of her other activities. She wasn’t happy with the meeting’s start time because it interferes with her body clock and the scheduling of her bodily functions (I’m NOT making this up, people), so we moved the start time to an hour later than usual.

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If her dietary restrictions are so bad, ask her to bring her own stuff. People who are allergic or don't eat certain foods generally won't have a problem with that. Also, tell her that if the group interferes with her "bodily functions", then perhaps she should rethink joining a group. It may seem callous, but she's obviously not the type of person who is meant to be social.

Eilan said:

...One woman is chronically late. Not just 10-15 minutes late, but 60-90 minutes late EVERY time. She always has an excuse; one of them is that, according to her, we never get started on time, anyway. However, we weren’t starting on time because we were waiting for HER. We’ve stopped doing that, though, and she’s not terribly pleased, but she hasn’t changed her behavior. So it goes.

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Way to go!

Eilan said:

The newest member is the one who, for me, is causing problems. She’s in her late 40’s, and she’s lived alone all her adult life, so she’s used to doing what she wants when she wants it. She cries (literally) when she doesn’t get her way.

She has a long list of dietary restrictions/preferences. I do understand and respect that, but nothing that I do as a host is up to her exacting standards. It's really starting to bother me.

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Invite her to bring her own food prepared the way she likes or to arrive an hour early so she can show you the way she requires her food prepared...My choice would be invite her to bring her own!

If you don't want to pick her out for this, you can ask everyone to bring a dish and make the whole evening one of "potluck."

Eilan said:

It seems like we’re always rescheduling because of her other activities. She wasn’t happy with the meeting’s start time because it interferes with her body clock and the scheduling of her bodily functions (I’m NOT making this up, people), so we moved the start time to an hour later than usual.

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Tough shit on her... Sorry but if she can't attend because of bad scheduling how does she ever get anywhere on time. It is her problem not yours, I would start phoning her each morning, and every morning ask, "I didn't get you up did I?"
When she says you did, make a note of the time, and on the day of the meeting phone 45 minutes ahead of that time.

When she asks why you called you can say to get her clock rescheduled an hour ahead, so she could be on time for everyone elses arrival and start time.

Eilan said:

I always said that I’d stop participating in the group if it ceased to be fun, and I’m starting to feel that it’s no longer fun. Part of me says I should just suck it up, deal with it, and stay in the group; another part of me says I should take a bit of a breather. I’m reluctant to quit because two of the members are my best friends and I’m pretty friendly with a third member. I’d miss them very much. Furthermore, since I’m a stay-at-home mom, this group has become a vital social lifeline for me. That’s another reason I’m reluctant to give it up.

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I hate to say it, but if I was in your shoes (and I don't look good in heels), I would talk to the other members and see who would like to go back to the old way of doing things?

Then gently revert to the original time and the original food and the original set of readers! If the "new" can't get along in an existing situation, they will push until the whole thing is run the way they want it.

You could always make the suggestion that if the 60 - 90 minute late one was to go to the fussy ones house on the same night as your meeting, they might catch up with the rest of you reading to a webcam setup, and they could join in when they got it togther.

Just a thought!

Slow typing and giving my twins lunch slowed my ideas into 3rd place behind EJFan and Darkmuse, but I was right with the idea till I was made later and later by the food needs of the boys...

















They're my excuses and I'm sticking with them.

The late one just seems like an irritation. What effect does her behavior have on the group? Is it a huge disruption, or does she more or less slip in and join the conversation? It sounds like you've already accepted and let go of it though. If she was a huge problem, you all could sit down and work out a strategy for her entrance to be less disruptive.

I admire your restraint with the new lady. If the hour-later schedule doesn't work for the group, tell her you're going to have to move it back for the good of the group. She'll either move with you, or she won't. You said it yourself...she's used to getting her way and has never moved out of the selfish-child stage. Feel good about putting your foot down when it's unreasonable, and not allowing her to manipulate you. I agree with telling her you try to provide a variety of food that everyone likes, but she's welcome to bring her own that will better meet her needs. The woman's clearly a nut...don't let her get to you!

Ezzy said:

Slow typing and giving my twins lunch slowed my ideas into 3rd place behind EJFan and Darkmuse, but I was right with the idea till I was made later and later by the food needs of the boys...
They're my excuses and I'm sticking with them.

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great minds, right?

EJFan said:

great minds, right?

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Or fools seldom differ, not sure which!

Wow--I feel better after posting! It certainly helped me vent. Thanks!!

EJFan said:

why join something if it doesn't suit you?

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Exactly. Some of us had misgivings when one of the members wanted to ask her to join. We voiced our concerns, but figured that it might not be that bad. Hindsight's 20/20.

EJFan said:

as far as the dietary issue goes, that can be a bit touchy. if they're REALLY serious health issues, let her bring her own shit to eat.

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She's a lactose-intolerant vegatarian who doesn't eat eggs because her mother made her eat them when she was a child. In other words, she's a vegan by default. That's not a big deal, because we already had a vegetarian member. Spicy foods are out, no matter how mild. Furthermore, she will only drink hot/iced tea, water, fruit juice, or the occasional alcoholic beverage. When it comes to hot tea, she will make the host take it back if the water isn't hot enough; once, in a restaurant, I saw her send back a pot of hot water four times because it wasn't as hot as she liked, even though it was boiling. Last time she was at my house, I gave her a mug and showed her where the sink and the microwave were.

DarkMuse said:

It may seem callous, but she's obviously not the type of person who is meant to be social.

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I think you're right. A couple of other members and I have discussed this, and it seems that even though she's well into her 40's, she's very immature in some ways. She gets upset, even offended, by reading selections that have sex and violence in them. For what it's worth, I see her as asexual. Kind of like SpongeBob, except he's more likable.

Ezzy said:

Sorry but if she can't attend because of bad scheduling how does she ever get anywhere on time.

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That's the thing. She refuses to go into work before 10:00. Granted, she has a job where she can usually do that, but occasionally, her department will have 8:00 am meetings. She won't go because it messes up her body clock--that's why she wants the book group meetings to be later in the day. I imagine it also impedes her ablilty to take a shit right on schedule, but I really don't need to know about that.

Ezzy said:

If you don't want to pick her out for this, you can ask everyone to bring a dish and make the whole evening one of "potluck."

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I can't believe we didn't think of this before. That just might work.

SweetErika said:

What effect does her behavior have on the group? Is it a huge disruption, or does she more or less slip in and join the conversation?

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We make her late arrivals much less of an issue than she'd like them to be. She likes to do the "poor me, I'm SO busy" thing, but, hey, aren't we all? Lately, once she arrives, she sits with her head in her hands and her eyes closed, ignoring us.

Hey Eilan...
How are these two women contributing to the group in a positive way?

SweetErika said:

Hey Eilan...
How are these two women contributing to the group in a positive way?

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Y'know, my best friend and I were discussing Ms. Chronically Late and Ms. Anal Retentive over dinner tonight. I don't think they are contributing positively at all; they certainly haven't enriched my life. In fact, I try to avoid socializing with them outside the book group setting.

I found out this evening why Ms. Anal Retentive wants to push back the meeting until later in the day. Right now we meet at 3:00. However, this interferes with her meal schedule, and she says she can't eat a lighter lunch in anticipation of our meeting. She's incapable of being flexible ONE day out of the month.

The more I learn about her, the more I wonder why the fuck any of us are putting up with this bullshit--my TODDLERS aren't this difficult! I can make a list of times when we've changed our plans because of what she wants, but she won't make allowances.

I'm hosting the June meeting. She wants to change the date because she MIGHT be out of the country then. However, she hasn't made any concrete plans yet. I NEED to know what's going on because I need to clean the house and make arrangements for my kids. I'm going to suggest that she make her plans and allow us to carry on without her. She won't be missed.

Eilan said:

Y'know, my best friend and I were discussing Ms. Chronically Late and Ms. Anal Retentive over dinner tonight. I don't think they are contributing positively at all; they certainly haven't enriched my life. In fact, I try to avoid socializing with them outside the book group setting.

I found out this evening why Ms. Anal Retentive wants to push back the meeting until later in the day. Right now we meet at 3:00. However, this interferes with her meal schedule, and she says she can't eat a lighter lunch in anticipation of our meeting. She's incapable of being flexible ONE day out of the month.

The more I learn about her, the more I wonder why the fuck any of us are putting up with this bullshit--my TODDLERS aren't this difficult! I can make a list of times when we've changed our plans because of what she wants, but she won't make allowances.

I'm hosting the June meeting. She wants to change the date because she MIGHT be out of the country then. However, she hasn't made any concrete plans yet. I NEED to know what's going on because I need to clean the house and make arrangements for my kids. I'm going to suggest that she make her plans and allow us to carry on without her. She won't be missed.

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Ridiculous. I hope you got some good venting in tonight! I wonder if it's occured to Ms. AR that she doesn't need to eat anything at all if it interferes with her schedule or diet.

Well, you've got at least 3 normal people, right? That's the majority of the group, you've already been more than generous with the accomodations, and so the two problems need to assimilate or drop out. The "we live in a democracy" argument can be surprisingly effective with kids, so maybe it'll work with these two women.

SweetErika said:

Ridiculous. I hope you got some good venting in tonight! I wonder if it's occured to Ms. AR that she doesn't need to eat anything at all if it interferes with her schedule or diet.

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Exactly--this is something my friend and I brought up. She shouldn't feel obligated to eat if she's not hungry. Hell, I'd make up a plate for her to take home, though her scheduled bodily functions might interfere with her ability to consume the food once she got there.

Well, you've got at least 3 normal people, right? That's the majority of the group, you've already been more than generous with the accomodations, and so the two problems need to assimilate or drop out. The "we live in a democracy" argument can be surprisingly effective with kids, so maybe it'll work with these two women.

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There are six members: Ms. CL, Ms. AR, me, my two good friends, and one other person. My best friend and I don't want to cater to the "problem" members. The other two women, while they agree with us privately, will accommodate the others to keep the peace.

This is all so STUPID! I enjoy reading. I enjoy intelligent discussions about what I've read; I can get my daily dose of drama elsewhere. I find it frustrating that we can't just enjoy each other's company the way we used to.

I have a feeling that some grievances will be aired at some point. All it's going to take is one email/phone call about wanting to change the June meeting date. Unfortunately, I'll probably only get to hear about it since nobody calls me about stuff like that.

I think I'm Lit's version of Ms. CL...I always stumble upon threads at least a day late. I don't really have an excuse, but I can promise that I won't sit in the corner with my head down and ignore you guys.

Wow, Eilan. I thought I was the only one with seriously neurotic people in my life. Ms. AR fascinates me; What kind of crazy bodily schedule can someone be on if a 3pm reading group meeting seriously effects them. If it's a matter of when she eats, she can avoid that part of the meeting or bring her own foods more suited to her needs. If it's a matter of bowel movements, she could excuse herself and use the restroom. It's maddening just reading about it, and I really can't imagine dealing with someone like that in real life. You have more patience than I do; I'd have told her to leave if she wasn't happy long ago.

If you're determined to be polite about it, I'd go with the suggestions listed above. Whenever I host a gathering and people have dietary restrictions of any sort, I make it potluck. It's so much easier to delegate cooking tasks to everyone in the group. As far as meeting times, if people are unhappy with the current time, take a vote to see who'd like to revert back to the earlier time. As EJ pointed out, a social, recreational group that only meets once a month has no reason to be rescheduled for the benefit of one individual. If everyone else can attend, it wouldn't hurt for someone to miss one meeting. They can still do the reading on their own, and catch up with everyone next time around.

If you're not up for being polite, you can always just ask the two problemic participants to leave the group. Or, you and the other normal members could change the meeting day/time to one that's impossible for them both to make.

If you're totally frazzled by the meetings, then think about taking a break from them. You don't have to give it up forever, just take the summer off or something. It might help you relax enough to ignore the drama.

eilan said:

i'm going to suggest that she make her plans and allow us to carry on without her. she won't be missed.

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how in the world did these people come to join the group?

you're probably a nicer person than i am, eilan, b/c frankly, i'd be inclined to freeze 'em out and tell them the group found it too difficult to meet, make sure everybody knows the score and continue only w/ the others.

ed

Lynxie said:

I'd have told her to leave if she wasn't happy long ago.

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I'd do that if I didn't feel guilty about making her cry. I'm not normally a confrontational person, but it may come to that.

On a trip to England that she and some of the other members and various other acquaintances took last summer, Ms. AR had the entire group walking up and down the streets of London for TWO hours looking for a restaurant that served vegetarian/vegan fare AND fresh-brewed iced tea. When one person complained about being hungry to the point of light-headedness, she started crying.

For some reason, people put up with her behavior, which is likely why it continues (though I think she's probably too old and set in her ways to change). I'm not sure that she has any sense that some people might find her actions to be unacceptable.

As far as meeting times, if people are unhappy with the current time, take a vote to see who'd like to revert back to the earlier time.

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I'm reluctant to change the meeting time because I'm busy on Sunday nights getting four kids bathed and ready for bed. Yes, my husband can (and does) help, but I don't like to have to rush around and get things done. We will probably take a vote next month.

As a rule, we generally didn't change the meeting dates in the past. They insisted on doing it when my youngest child was born, as I was scheduled to be induced the weekend of the meeting, but I didn't ask them to. In fact, I told them to carry on without me.

silverwhisper said:

how in the world did these people come to join the group?

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Ms. CL was asked to join at the same time that I was, about 6 years ago. Ms. AR was a coworker of mine when I was working (and also a coworker of a friend in the group). I didn't like her then, and I like her even less now. Unfortunately, even though I expressed misgivings about her joining the group, I wasn't as vocal as I might have been.

Something's gotta give. It may come down to my taking a few months off, which I don't want to do. However, I get precious little time for socializing as it is. I don't see why I should have to waste it with people like this.

For a while, I was thinking that maybe I was the intolerant and unreasonable one.

Eilan said:

I'd do that if I didn't feel guilty about making her cry. I'm not normally a confrontational person, but it may come to that.

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Sometimes being non-confrontational is more confrontational than being confrontational is.

Eilan said:

On a trip to England that she and some of the other members and various other acquaintances took last summer, Ms. AR had the entire group walking up and down the streets of London for TWO hours looking for a restaurant that served vegetarian/vegan fare AND fresh-brewed iced tea. When one person complained about being hungry to the point of light-headedness, she started crying.

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This sort of piss poor planning is the way she runs her life, and especially in a country where she should have little or no difficult making herself understood, not even needing a foreign language (for the most part).

If she had walked into any hotel (and I used to live in London, and there are hotels on most touristy street) the concierge would have been able to point her to Vegan/Veggie restaurants. Most of the big museums that have any catering cater for Veggies at the very least.

If you had to have Philly steak sandwiches once a day or you would drop dead, would you wait to get to a "New" city or country before you checked to see if they were a common dish available in more than one restaurant in that city/country?

I just Googled "London Vegan restaurants" and got 86,600 results, it took .33 of a second. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuur

Eilan said:

For some reason, people put up with her behavior, which is likely why it continues (though I think she's probably too old and set in her ways to change). I'm not sure that she has any sense that some people might find her actions to be unacceptable.

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Here is where I would like to be confrontational with her; I would do everything in my power to get her to offer to hold the meeting one-month. I would arrive on time but with a dietary list that will involve a trip to a store for her (as host), and the demand for a different type of soap after a 25-minute trip to the bathroom sometime in the middle of the evening. When she is unable to provide for you, it would be the perfect time to burst into tears and complain bitterly "Nobody understands how you need that soap, and only that soap will do".

Eilan said:

I'm reluctant to change the meeting time because I'm busy on Sunday nights getting four kids bathed and ready for bed. Yes, my husband can (and does) help, but I don't like to have to rush around and get things done. We will probably take a vote next month.

As a rule, we generally didn't change the meeting dates in the past. They insisted on doing it when my youngest child was born, as I was scheduled to be induced the weekend of the meeting, but I didn't ask them to. In fact, I told them to carry on without me.

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Other than with my mean scheme above, I wouldn't change the time or the day, even if the president and first lady were coming for dinner.

Eilan said:

Something's gotta give. It may come down to my taking a few months off, which I don't want to do. However, I get precious little time for socializing as it is. I don't see why I should have to waste it with people like this.

For a while, I was thinking that maybe I was the intolerant and unreasonable one.

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I would not take a time out, either fight fire with fire, or get hubby to make a nice wooden box for "suggestions" then using a different than your normal or a generic copier paper, put a few suggestions in the same day anyone else does, or have the box in a different room or hallway that people will pass to and from the bathroom and leave paper and pens next to it, so that they may add suggestions in private.

If you can bring yourself to be a little mean it will help the group continue, as I am quite sure if you "left" for a couple of months you would be pulling down one of the props that holds the group up, if any other person except AR and CL were to follow you there would be NO group in 2 or 3 months.

I would also try to read one of the classic erotic books on your reading list next, and have some fun getting AR to read all the "sexy bits," I wouldn't pull away from the group if I was you, as that will just give AR a stronger hand for when you return than she has now. Perhaps you could check out the local Adult DVD store and see if there are any books that have been made into porn movies, even if only the title was used.

You could then invite them for a normal meeting and tell them a friend had sent you a copy of book xxxx and you wanted to share with them, let it run right into a sex scene, then be shocked and upset and hand around smelling salts and tissues, go back to reading as per normal, but at the end of the evening offer it to AR as a loner for the next month, and ask her to do a critical review of the number and different types of sex scenes.

I know I am going to far with bad behavior, but I think as you brought AR to our attention, we should all offer ways to get her to not want to come back. Or to help her to see the error of her ways.

Ezzy said:

Here is where I would like to be confrontational with her; I would do everything in my power to get her to offer to hold the meeting one-month. I would arrive on time but with a dietary list that will involve a trip to a store for her (as host), and the demand for a different type of soap after a 25-minute trip to the bathroom sometime in the middle of the evening. When she is unable to provide for you, it would be the perfect time to burst into tears and complain bitterly "Nobody understands how you need that soap, and only that soap will do".

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I'll have to wait a while. The April meeting was at her house.

Interestingly enough, she doesn't respect other members' dietary (or other) issues. When I host, I try to get drinks that everyone likes, so I might have several different 2-liter bottles of pop plus some juice. She has openly admitted that she refuses to buy anything for us that she herself won't drink. I don't drink Diet Dr. Pepper (ick!), but I buy it as a courtesy to the people who do. Then I send it home with them. I think she could do the same.

When I'm working out regularly, I tend to clean up my diet pretty significantly. For me, this means more protein and fewer carbs (not low-carb, though). When I mentioned this at one meeting--NOT expecting special favors, as I'm happy with whatever's being served to me--she went into a mini-tirade about how bad low-carb diets are and how it's wrong to eliminate one food group. First of all, I wasn't on a low-carb diet. Secondly, I didn't ask for--nor will I ever ask for--her dietetic expertise.

I just Googled "London Vegan restaurants" and got 86,600 results, it took .33 of a second. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuur

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I know, I know. She has a PhD, and she likes to lord this over people, but if this if what having a doctorate does for someone, then I'm glad I didn't continue in graduate school. Nobody ever said she had common sense, though.

On this same trip to England, her inability to read a map on some walking trails resulted in the group walking in circles for 10 miles and caused one person to become physically ill from heat and fatigue (in the middle of nowhere, no less). She insisted that she knew where she was going, but the husband of one of my fellow members finally said, "Just give me the goddamned map!"

If I were that difficult, wouldn't I want someone to tell me?

eilan, i think you need a hatchet person. :> she sounds self-involved, self-centered and unable to relate to other people. please tell me her doctorate wasn't in lit?

ed

silverwhisper said:

eilan, i think you need a hatchet person. :> she sounds self-involved, self-centered and unable to relate to other people. please tell me her doctorate wasn't in lit?

ed

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Goodness, no. It's science-related. How on earth she ever managed to dissect anything I'll never know.

Two choices

Either ask the two troublemakers to leave the group, or disband the group and start a new one, without the two members in question.
Good luck to you. I know this is not easy, but they are destroying your bliss and something needs to be done to fix the problem.

HornyHenry said:

Either ask the two troublemakers to leave the group, or disband the group and start a new one, without the two members in question.
Good luck to you. I know this is not easy, but they are destroying your bliss and something needs to be done to fix the problem.

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Neat solution, I like it more and more!

silverwhisper said:

please tell me her doctorate wasn't in lit?

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you can get a doctorate here at lit??? i must enroll immediately.

Eilan said:

Goodness, no. It's science-related. How on earth she ever managed to dissect anything I'll never know.

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this explains why she's dissecting your group. i agree w/SW... time to excise the dead tissue.