So what is "normal" anyway...?

I still think Lit is my best discovery of last year. A wealth of information and education on subjects you won't just ask anyone about...

Looking at all the questions and "problems" people have (and my own reaction to them sometimes) I came to the conclusion that all those questions and "problems" probably stem from the many different ways different people define "normal".

Sure, my parents told me something about sex, but mainly that it was for making babies and such. A bit was hinted about the emotions and feelings but not much. I don't think in my mother's opinion sex was ever for fun, so all the fun things you could do without wanting to make babies were some sort of a taboo. Different generation I guess, I don't know....

Still... without my parents telling me about oral sex or basically anything else than PIV sex as a way of making babies.... how did I develop MY sense of what was normal and what was not? Why do I have certain preferences and how did I conclude what could be expected of me and what not (as a matter of speaking.... you don't have to answer THIS one... )

For instance: anal sex and sex/pain were something I always considered to be awkward at the least. Spending all this time on Lit I must say I'm starting to open up to other possibilities (so to speak).

Still, and this is my question, I have a cadre of reference and there are things I consider to be normal while there are other things I would consider weird or gross. If I see questions about those things I can't even imagine people would wanna go there.

So.... what is normal? And how does "normal" work in a (sexual) relationship?

Go ahead.....

i think "normal" is a useless word when discussing human sexuality, esp one's preferences/kinks, frankly. what is shocking and scandalous to some (anal sex, b/d/s/m) is boring and vanilla to others.

personally, i have a great antipathy towards anything remotely resembling violence during sex. correction: i have a great antipathy towards my doing anything along those lines. i'm just not that kind of guy and i have no desire to be one.

ed

M's girl said:

So.... what is normal? And how does "normal" work in a (sexual) relationship?

Go ahead.....

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“When will you understand that being normal isn't necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage.” ~~~Anon

garbage can said:

“When will you understand that being normal isn't necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage.” ~~~Anon

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Uhm.... are you talking to me?

I did not say I consider being normal a virtue or not. It is simply my belief that with everything in life you measure your thoughts, beliefs and what have you on what YOU (meaning me in this case ) consider to be normal. But can normal be defined, at least a bit? Is what the majority of people think and do (no matter if it's about sex or politics or whatever) something you could consider to be some sort of basis, status quo, "normality"?

My idea of "normal" has evolved over the past five years.

i don't believe in "normal" for anything... temperature, sex-life, eating habits, et al. i think the word "average" works far better than "normal" in most every facet of life.

I think 'the norm' is the usual, generally accepted thing. Norm is the most boring guy I know! So I think part of the fun is pushing those limits. But there are still other personal limits (and some legal too!). Ed says no violence (if I read his post correctly, even by consent). Others will have their taboos; some make sense to me like children, animals, incest & non-consentual. Others do not: light bondage, anal..well I could go on and on. I think there are definite limits: I don't know where the line is but I know which side of it I am on.

M's girl said:

) . But can normal be defined, at least a bit?

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Assuming you're not breaking the law, then "normal" is within the confines of our own minds...

Straight-8 said:

I think 'the norm' is the usual, generally accepted thing.

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I think you are right. But I don't think normal or "the norm" equals boring. Not always anyway.

But I'm not trying to establish what normal is. Just for the sake of discussion I was wondering why everyone sort of knows what normal is or normal means, still we all have another reference to that word.

I see people asking questions here on Lit and others reacting to it almost as if they are insulted. When people ask questions like "why doesn't my woman want to....." or "Ain't it weird my man does......" they are all, in a way, comparing their situation to what they consider to be "normal".

When you say that the norm is the usual, generally accepted thing I would say that if 75% of people agree you could safely call something pretty normal? And if that is so, why are there still so many other people being all upset about it or consider their view to be "the norm"? It's weird how that works...

I was just wondering if people have thoughts on that....

garbage can said:

Assuming you're not breaking the law, then "normal" is within the confines of our own minds...

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See, but just for the sake of argument....? In some states in the US some sexual acts are forbidden by law. If I'm right those are oral and anal sex, for instance. Now, most of us here on lit will consider oral sex a normal, logical part of our sexlife. Another part also considers anal sex to be as common as it gets. So how about that then?

I'm not being a moralist or anything. Within some boundaries (mainly the ones Straight-8 mentioned) everyone can do whatever they like as long as everyone is happy and no one is hurt as far as I'm concerned. Some things are just not for me.

So how did you come to conclude for yourself (I'm asking this in general) what is "normal" (mind the quotes - )? For instance I think oral sex (both ways) is normal, still there seem to be plenty of people who think oral is dirty and does not belong to a regular, normal sexlife.... It's not something that's balancing on that thin line of social acceptance (I think) still there are people who think (no matter the majority of others who think it's normal) it is not right.

Those are the things I wonder about...

EJFan said:

i don't believe in "normal" for anything... temperature, sex-life, eating habits, et al. i think the word "average" works far better than "normal" in most every facet of life.

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Normal, average, natural...?

Although there are slight differences in these words, in the end we all mean the same when we refer to them I think.

straight 8: yes, that's correct. i cannot do violence, even as part of a roleplay thing. that's entirely my issue however and says nothing whatsoever about the validity of it for those who dig on it. :>

ed

Actually normal is boring.

Normal being the supposed middle ground between the far left, in a sexual term, orgy daily people with bondage and so forth and the far right, in this case virgins until they die. What is in the middle? Well the middle actually would be light bondage with oral and anal sex with an occasional third.

That isn't what most people consider normal though in terms of sex, normal to most is light kissing on the cheek in public and missionary for 10 minutes 3 times a week. I'll tell you one thing, if I found myself getting missionary 3 times a week for ten minutes I'd be riding him every day.

To me, normal isn't what everyone else expects happening in your bedroom, to me normal is what you want and get to happen in your bedroom, who cares what anyone else thinks, they aren't in your bedroom and it is very none of their business unless you invite them in.

On a side note, those laws against anal and oral sex, are to stop gay men from engaging in sex with other gay men, if the cops were to catch a woman going down on a guy, the cops would watch, maybe ask if they can be next, with the laws or without.

Does bring to mind a question though, why can the government say no you can't suck another guys cock, but if they were to say you can only have 2 dildo's someone contests the law?

This is a fascinating question and I can already see a couple of directions that I might take in answering it. However, as I don't have the several hours it would take to properly address either direction (and I'm doubtful that anyone would care to read so much copy anyway) I'll just toss out a couple of points.

We live in a time when values are far less absolute than ever before. It has become almost dogmatic that "my values" are no more and no less appropriate than "your values" simply because we each are entitled to having our own. And yet, most people then provide the disclaimer that they accept others' values on the condition that those values do not involve hurting other people. And since that implies a certain commonly-accepted boundary for values, maybe we aren't quite so laissez-faire about values as we say we are. But I digress a bit.

Normal is a self-defined position. Mature adults allow themselves to grow and change (actually, mature adults usually push themselves to grow) and so what's "normal" generally changes over time with new experiences. Those who do not allow themselves to grow tend to become neurotic.

As for myself, what I learned about sex and sexuality as a teenager came from two sources: the Masters and Johnson report and Hugh Hefner's magazine editorials. As a result, I came to adulthood with a dispassionate acceptance of nearly all hedonistic pursuits. Add to that a few years of reading Lit threads and you have the current yank.

To paraphrase a Tom Hanks character, Normal is as normal does.

I'm not sure "normal" is a useful term in a discussion of sexual preferences. They're merely preferences, which nearly all of us would admit (I suspect) fluctuate over the course of our lives.

Also, which sense of the adjective is "normal" being used here: In a purely quantitative one, e.g. compared to the average or mean, or in a normative one, e.g. standard of value, a deviation or adherence to the law or perceived societal standards? Deciding, for example, whether polyamory is normal entails knowing the difference between these two senses and which context you're going to consider the notion.

I think you're asking how each of us arrived at our particular view of what is the norm for us. For me, I'd say it was actual experiences, and to a certain degree, the expectations of others.

I find that if I'm with an adventurous partner who likes to play, then the 'norm' for us as a couple is broader and includes a whole host of options. If I'm with a partner that sticks to the basics, the norm narrows to what he finds acceptable or is or isn't interested in doing.

The penis is a tricky piece of machinery - it won't get or stay hard if the owner is uncomfortable, so the norm often becomes what is 'hot' for him. Granted, if it doesn't match or messh with my range of what is normal, the relationship doesn't last long.

midwestyankee said:

As for myself, what I learned about sex and sexuality as a teenager came from two sources: the Masters and Johnson report and Hugh Hefner's magazine editorials. As a result, I came to adulthood with a dispassionate acceptance of nearly all hedonistic pursuits. Add to that a few years of reading Lit threads and you have the current yank.

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This cracks me up ! Me too (P.S. change 'yank' to 'canuck' and throw in Kinsey).

sure we all have different preferences, and tho i dont consider myself "abnormal" (psycologicly or sexually) i know i'm a bit kinked in the bedroom. i suggested M's girl start this post when she said on another thread that she thought oral was pretty normal. what i was thinking of for this thread was something along the lines of: if you met someone you were going to sleep with (a one nighter, the start of a relationship, or anywhere inbetween) and hadn't discussed preferences, what would you expect. i love anal, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker if she didn't, and whats more, i wouldn't expect it. things i would expect (or to put it another way, things i consider normal): kissing, necking, fondling, fingering/stroking, piv sex, and oral. if she's not into any one of these things i would be suprised and it would probably cause the relationship not to work. again, this would be someone with unknown preferences. not someone you met at a bdsm club, or on lit, ect. and those of us with serious preferences, without which it wont work, usually DO meet people at themed places (real or virtual). those are the folks who i (imho) dont consider normal. those that NEED more than the above list. that list is my normal, whats yours? and just cause i think you might not be normal, doesn't mean any more than that, its not a value judgment in any way. well thats my 2cents.

midwestyankee said:

This is a fascinating question and I can already see a couple of directions that I might take in answering it. However, as I don't have the several hours it would take to properly address either direction (and I'm doubtful that anyone would care to read so much copy anyway) I'll just toss out a couple of points.

We live in a time when values are far less absolute than ever before. It has become almost dogmatic that "my values" are no more and no less appropriate than "your values" simply because we each are entitled to having our own. And yet, most people then provide the disclaimer that they accept others' values on the condition that those values do not involve hurting other people. And since that implies a certain commonly-accepted boundary for values, maybe we aren't quite so laissez-faire about values as we say we are. But I digress a bit.

Normal is a self-defined position. Mature adults allow themselves to grow and change (actually, mature adults usually push themselves to grow) and so what's "normal" generally changes over time with new experiences. Those who do not allow themselves to grow tend to become neurotic.

As for myself, what I learned about sex and sexuality as a teenager came from two sources: the Masters and Johnson report and Hugh Hefner's magazine editorials. As a result, I came to adulthood with a dispassionate acceptance of nearly all hedonistic pursuits. Add to that a few years of reading Lit threads and you have the current yank.

To paraphrase a Tom Hanks character, Normal is as normal does.

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Thank you. This is the kind of reaction I was hoping for. I have marked the phrases that stood out for me. "Normal is a self-defined position" ... well, on the one hand that is true but how self defined is it REALLY when you think about it? I think you make up your mind, sometimes not even consiously, but during that process so many outside factors influence your decision-making. And if that is so, then what you see around you (aka is most common) becomes somewhat of the norm to define what is normal to you.

I'm just thinking out loud here. Care to react to this?

E

Compared to average.....

eudaemonia said:

I'm not sure "normal" is a useful term in a discussion of sexual preferences. They're merely preferences, which nearly all of us would admit (I suspect) fluctuate over the course of our lives.

Also, which sense of the adjective is "normal" being used here: In a purely quantitative one, e.g. compared to the average or mean, or in a normative one, e.g. standard of value, a deviation or adherence to the law or perceived societal standards? Deciding, for example, whether polyamory is normal entails knowing the difference between these two senses and which context you're going to consider the notion.

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I'm not trying to define what is normal. It is quite clear that everyone has a different notion of what is normal. I'm just stating, for the sake of argument I guess, that normal is a strange word. We all know what it means but it means something else to everyone.

Literotica, and the questions posed and answered here, shows that people react on the basis of what they think is

• normal
• common
• fair
• reasonable
• socially accepted

I could go on but you get the point....

An by doing that we all refer to what is right in our own mind. I've seen people leave Lit because they could not handle the moral of some people anymore. That is sad but I can understand it. Sometimes things upset me to the point that I don't know if I want to read any more of that bullshit anymore. I try not to judge but sometimes it's hard. I think it has to do, for me, with what I consider to be normal. I'm willing to stretch that notion as much as I can but there are limits. And yet, to other people those things then seem quite normal. Isn't that strange? I think it is.

LadyJeanne said:

I think you're asking how each of us arrived at our particular view of what is the norm for us. For me, I'd say it was actual experiences, and to a certain degree, the expectations of others.

I find that if I'm with an adventurous partner who likes to play, then the 'norm' for us as a couple is broader and includes a whole host of options. If I'm with a partner that sticks to the basics, the norm narrows to what he finds acceptable or is or isn't interested in doing.

The penis is a tricky piece of machinery - it won't get or stay hard if the owner is uncomfortable, so the norm often becomes what is 'hot' for him. Granted, if it doesn't match or messh with my range of what is normal, the relationship doesn't last long.

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Ah.... Lady Jeanne...

Yes! That is what I was asking, but also to discuss WHY that is further. Thank you for your reply; as always you make a lot of sense to me and I agree with what you said here.

I guess it works somewhat the same for me. I am wondering though.... if you would meet a partner who would want things (I'm still talking sexlife here) from you you had never considered before and would not even have believed anyone you would find attractive would want to do.... would you be open to their suggestions?

And if so, would that then be because of the person asking you these things? I guess I'm talking extremes. At the same time I'm writing this I realize quite well that extremes also mean different things to different people. it's a hard one to discuss I guess, but will you give it a try?

hippyfreak said:

...... I know i'm a bit kinked in the bedroom.

Things i would expect (or to put it another way, things I consider normal): kissing, necking, fondling, fingering/stroking, piv sex, and oral. If she's not into any one of these things I would be suprised and it would probably cause the relationship not to work.

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Thank you for replying. This is what I'm talking about. You start by saying you are a bit kinked in the bedroom. What things do you consider to be more kinky than others?

Your normal-list sounds quite normal to me too

My M is the same as you where anal is concerned. He likes it very much while I could not care less, to be honest (he knows this). What I think is funny is that I find anal sex to look at highly erotic sometimes (depends on how it is done). I will do some anal sometimes because I love M and it turns him on, and thát is a big turn on for me. So do I think anal sex is abnormal? No, but I do think it has become the norm almost because the porn business needed a new thrill. I am also convinced that for that same reason a lot of other things were pushed and are being considered almost the norm now. It's a bit of the Jackass mentality as far as I am concerned. What is it... boredom?

i think it is al prospective. i used to think i was sexually abnormal. yet here i find i may even be considered a little conservative sexually. there was some song at one time, can't remember anything but the line
" when it comes down to just two, i ain't no crazier than you."

kaboom3d said:

i think it is al prospective. i used to think i was sexually abnormal. yet here i find i may even be considered a little conservative sexually. there was some song at one time, can't remember anything but the line
" when it comes down to just two, i ain't no crazier than you."

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would that include me?