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Click hereANDY: did you ever arm wrestle?
TONYA: sure
ANDY: with who?
TONYA: when i was a kid - with other kids
TONYA: and once with the coward
TONYA: he only did it once, and wouldn't do it again
TONYA: i embarrassed him
ANDY: you gave it all you had?
TONYA: sure did
TONYA: and i beat him
ANDY: did he say - wait - I did not get a chance - lets rematch?
TONYA: no - what he said was that he wasn't really trying
TONYA: and in the beginning, i don't think he really was
TONYA: he had no confidence in my strength
TONYA: and when he realized that i had strength
TONYA: it was too late to over come it
ANDY: did you come on really strong in the first seconds, get his arm almost down, he suddenly stopped you, and the last few inches was more of a power play?
TONYA: that's exactly what happened
ANDY: cool
ANDY: the guy would definitely say he was not trying
ANDY: but he would ALWAYS have a rematch
ANDY: so am I misjudging male ego?
TONYA: i don't know about all male ego, but the coward sure had huge one
ANDY: the only reason why he would not immediately ask for a rematch is because he knew you were married to him and he could have one another time
ANDY: i cannot imagine a guy living this down when he thought he did not give it a fair try on his part
ANDY: you see my logic?
TONYA: i think he was afraid that if we had a rematch, i might actually win
TONYA: so long as he convinced himself that he didn't really try
TONYA: his ego was still ok
ANDY: i was thinking
ANDY: how long did it take you to win?
TONYA: it wasn't easy - it took several minutes - and we were both sweating
ANDY: did he manage to get your arm back up to the straight up position?
TONYA: almost, but not quite
ANDY: do you think, that even though men generally have more muscle strength, that women have better endurance
ANDY: noticed that the men
ANDY: would just give out
TONYA: oh absolutely, women have more endurance with men
TONYA: than men - especially sexually
ANDY: so what happened was that after struggling with coward for a few minutes, his arm sort of quivered and he lost all his strength all at once and you slammed him to the table?
TONYA: that's right
ANDY: and that was the ego thing that sort of freaked him out
TONYA: yes
ANDY: and after that, if he had asked you for a rematch his arm was wasted so he would have not won
ANDY: it takes time for one to get back that from muscle fatigue
TONYA: i don't know - he never asked for a rematch
TONYA: but it must have turned him on
ANDY: how so?
TONYA: we had some really intense sex afterward
ANDY: did he use that arm during sex or the other one?
TONYA: he used both arms, but never one more than the other
ANDY: how did your arm feel after that arm wrestling?
TONYA: a little tender, but not so bad
TONYA: it was tender for about a week, though
ANDY: did you feel that if there was another man there equal in strength to coward, that you could have taken him on and won then?
TONYA: no. as i said, i really think that i won because he under estimated my physical strength, and i caught him off guard
TONYA: he worked out every day
TONYA: and lifted hand weights
TONYA: so i don't believe that i could have actually beat him
TONYA: with all things being equal
ANDY: do you think that you are as strong in the arms now as you were then?
TONYA: probably about the same
TONYA: well, actually, right now, perhaps not as strong
TONYA: i haven't been working out much since my surgery
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TONYA: that's what i mean - the exertion of energy is the turn on - i want to sweat for it
ANDY: let me ask you - when you were arm wrestling coward - and won - was it a HUGE turn on for you? and were you disappointed that you did not have a chance to do this more often?
TONYA: in thinking back, i must have been turned on by it - i know that he was, because we had incredible sex afterwords, but i didn't really put that much thought into after that...
TONYA: i am now remembering that he was always physically challenging me that way - just wrestling around the house - like trying to pin me down on the bed, or me pinning him
TONYA: it just never occurred to me at the time that it was such a turn on for him
ANDY: that is interesting - since i was going to ask you who came up with the idea to arm wrestle
ANDY: did he come in one day and say 'lets arm wrestle?'
TONYA: no. i recall that we were both sitting at the table one afternoon - he was reading the paper or something and i threw something at the paper to get his attention
TONYA: he told me to stop, but i could tell that he was playful, so i continued to do it
TONYA: and somehow that turned into him shoving me, playfully and i shoved him back - and he asked me just how strong i was
TONYA: i said i was strong enough to kick his butt (playfully) and we arm wrestled
ANDY: for me the HUGE turn on is that you are competitive and wanted to beat him arm wrestling - you did not think - oh I cannot beat him - or you did not think - if I beat him it will hurt his ego - you were just thinking I am Tonya and I am giving it all I got
TONYA: that's pretty much what i was thinking
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ANDY: let me ask you something
ANDY: did coward ever cross the line with you - physically?
TONYA: he tried only once. but i had already had self-defenses classes by that time, so he landed on his butt looking foolish. but he realized, in that moment, that i could have really hurt him - and that i was completely prepared to do so.
ANDY: what did he try on you?
ANDY: when in the marriage?
ANDY: and was anything said after you judo flip (was that it) him?
TONYA: we had been married maybe 6 months
TONYA: there were people over - mostly his friends
TONYA: and he was ordering me around all evening and it was pissing me off
TONYA: so i asked him very politely, away from everyone else to stop doing that
TONYA: and poo-poo'ed me as if i was just being silly
TONYA: but other people noticed, and folks began to leave shortly after that
TONYA: so when the last person had left, and i was cleaning up i told him again that i did not appreciate the way he was attempting to order me around
TONYA: he said that i was only trying to make it difficult for him because he was having a good time and i wanted help cleaning or some such bull - basically he wasn't listening
TONYA: and he picked up the remote in the living room and turned on the tv
TONYA: so i picked it up and turned it off - because now im really pissed
TONYA: he stands up and gets in my face, and tells me that i should never "disrespect him" in front of his friends
TONYA: the coward is 6'3, about 220 lbs, so he's sure that he's intimidating the hell out of me,
TONYA: and he takes my labored breathing as the beginning of a cry - which he has never seen me do
TONYA: when i get angry, my voice gets lower - almost to a whisper
TONYA: and i tell him, in this whisper, that he should not underestimate me - or think that i am here on this earth to serve him
TONYA: he pulled back and reached up to slap me
TONYA: and i caught his arm and twisted around his back
TONYA: and i had his arm in this really awkward position behind him - sort of like the police hold people when they're out of control
TONYA: except i am holding up higher because he's taller
TONYA: and of course he does all of this threatening that if i don't let his arm go, he's going to do whatever to me
TONYA: and i twist a little more
TONYA: and he's cursing and screaming and threatening
TONYA: and i kick the back of his leg, right above the knee (another pressure point), and he drops down to the floor
TONYA: that's how he ended up on his butt
ANDY: what happened next?
TONYA: this is somewhat surreal because it mirrors the scenario that you and i just had this morning
TONYA: while i am still holding his arm behind him in this very unnatural and painful position,
TONYA: i lean over and whisper in his ear that he's going to have to learn to respect me or he's going to have trouble in his thus far peaceful home
TONYA: and i let him go - by this time, he has tears streaming down his face from the pain
TONYA: he limped for a week
TONYA: and he favored that arm for at least 3
ANDY: question
ANDY: when he fell on his butt - did not that mean you let go of his arm - unless you fell down next to him
TONYA: no, i didn't let go - i held on. i just went down with him. if i hadn't, i could have broken his arm
ANDY: so you landed under him?
TONYA: no. when i got his leg to buckle, and he began to go down, i went down on one knee to counteract the height difference
TONYA: so i ended up behind him
TONYA: on one knee
TONYA: still holding his arm
ANDY: do you use two of your arms to hold one of his?
TONYA: absolutely
TONYA: initially when i reached up to block his arm from hitting me
TONYA: i grabbed his wrist and twisted. his body turned as i twisted and i had to hold on with both arms to counter his strength
ANDY: is it shaped like an L with his hand pointing to the back of his neck?
TONYA: right
TONYA: it hurts like hell - or so i have been told
TONYA: and to add even more pain, you bend the wrist back as well
ANDY: when he reached to slap you - was that the moment when you thought - NOW I NEED TO ACT - I do not want to be married to another Larry?
TONYA: that was it. and it was not like i thought about it. something inside just snapped and i thought, "this will NOT happen to me again and he needs to know that RIGHT now"
ANDY: that is precisely what I meant - in act ever since Larry you must have thought never again never again in your mind over and over
ANDY: right?
ANDY: so when this moment came
ANDY: it was like you had lived it in your mind already
ANDY: so you did not need to think
TONYA: that's right
ANDY: i know you so well!
ANDY: question
ANDY: when you were standing almost breathing at cowards back to hold his arm
ANDY: how did you kick his leg so hard - was it like you need to really pull back on your leg to swing it at his leg?
ANDY: i guess I am asking does one need balance and very strong legs to do this
ANDY: it is not like kicking someone from a distance
ANDY: where you can really put a lot of force into it
TONYA: you don't need a lot of force. you have the element of surprise and if you hit right above and behind the knee, you hit a pressure point that causes a good amount of pain
ANDY: i ask this because you said he was limping for a week
ANDY: i can understand his arm being very wounded
ANDY: so i was confused about his limp
TONYA: its the pressure points that cause the most pain
ANDY: what was that night like after you beat him up - did you sleep together? did you talk about it? or talk about anything?
TONYA: he had nothing to say to me pretty much for almost a week.
TONYA: he slept on the couch
TONYA: then he got horny
ANDY: was that his choice of sleeping?
TONYA: yes
TONYA: i never told him he had to sleep on the couch
ANDY: what do you mean he got horny - he told you or you saw an erection
TONYA: he came to bed on the 4th or 5th night about 1am and woke me up
ANDY: did you have sex?
TONYA: yes, we did
ANDY: when you had sex that time and he winced from his arm being sore - what was the mood?
TONYA: strangely, it was very passionate. he didn't use that arm very much
ANDY: when he was being disrespectful to you, it sounded like he was not even aware he was doing it, even though it made the guests leave. so, i am wondering if he really knew he was being disrespectful to you.
TONYA: that was why i forgave him - he wasn't aware of what he was doing. he was just being an ass
ANDY: i asked that
ANDY: because if he did not know what he did wrong - the lesson you gave him - may not have even worked
ANDY: so did you follow up the physical lesson
ANDY: with a verbal one
ANDY: and explain to him exactly HOW to behave?
TONYA: oh yes. we talked about it - at length. and it never happened again.
TONYA: now mind you, he could have easily beat me up in face to face combat
TONYA: but that's not his nature - to beat up on women
TONYA: (only take their money)
ANDY: once you had his arm behind his back there was not an option for him beating you up!
ANDY: right?
TONYA: not then, but i mean some other time - when he wanted to get revenge or something
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ANDY: but i was thinking you would comment on:Andy: and I am sure you did not feel so great at what you did
TONYA: on some level, i don't feel so great about it. but i have to honestly say that part of me wants to give the other part a high five.
ANDY: i am glad that half of you is happy - I think a lot of your self hate has to do with you not being happy with your past actions - and on this one i am 100% convinced that you did the right thing
TONYA: thank you. i appreciate that
ANDY: what happened first arm twisting coward or the fun arm wrestling incident?
TONYA: the arm wrestling came first -
TONYA: which is why i believe - and so did he, that i just caught him off guard
ANDY: the key to the incident which you just told me - is that he really did not know you that well - he did not know that you were angry - since you get angry so rarely
ANDY: so he underestimated you
ANDY: you even used those words
ANDY: and it did not sink in
TONYA: looks can be deceiving. i never underestimate anyone
ANDY: the point I am making is that he did not know what you are like when you are angry
ANDY: and you were already married 6 months
ANDY: that does not leave me with a good feeling
ANDY: because something as basic as how your wife is when she is angry
ANDY: should be obvious before marriage
ANDY: what do you think?
TONYA: he never saw me angry before that
TONYA: it takes quite a bit to get me angry enough to show it in that way
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TONYA: the interesting story: yes, that was the very first time i had ever seen the coward cry
TONYA: i did assume, when i let him go, that his energy was much to spent to do anything to me
TONYA: his verbal tone certainly went from antagonistic to nothing. he had no words. i also feel that part of this was his humiliation
TONYA: i do not know if i knew i had control of him at that point. but i knew that i had made the point i was trying to make and that he would consider it long and hard if he ever chose to physically fight with me
TONYA: i do believe that if he and i had arm wrestled regularly, that i could have won - at least some of the time. again, i have no desire to develop muscle, and that is what this activity would have done for me - in one arm. although the reality is that he never wanted to arm wrestle me again - probably for fear that i would win again
TONYA: our fantasy: when i caught his arm and pulled it behind him, yes i pressed it in against his back as far as it would go
TONYA: it would have worked much better if i had pressed him into a wall, but we were in the middle of the living room and i needed to think quickly. i have seen police officers use this same move and they had perpetrators up against walls
TONYA: when i got him down on the floor, it was a controlled move, but i had never done it before, so when i stepped back and kicked out, i did not anticipate that he would drop so quickly
TONYA: however, i had his arm pulled out at an angle, and i still had is wrist pulled up, so i still had control
TONYA: i had a major advantage when he went down on the floor, as i was now taller than he was and when i pressed his arm into his back again, i leaned my weight on it
TONYA: still reading remainder of fantasy
ANDY: there is something curious about your statements - you keep saying you do not want to develop muscle - and yet you have incredibly strong arms. Imagine what you would be like with muscles! And you are an ideal fighter since you were thinking quickly and calmly and not in a state of confusion. I am not sure if I am turned on more by your raw power or your confidence in your success. Did you also have him bent over with you leaning over him as he was on his butt? How long did this last? I mean the holding his arm while standing, and while on the ground?
TONYA: yes, i had him bent over while i was leaning on his back (which made it much easier to whisper in his ear)
TONYA: this lasted probably 5 minutes - seemed longer at the time, but i don't think so. it only took about that long to apply the right amount of pressure, and he stopped struggling
TONYA: the standing and holding his arm only lasted maybe 1 or 2 minutes, as i knew that if i didn't get him down on his butt,with me above him, i could not hold him for very long.
ANDY: so, you were on your knees leaning your weight into him for 5 whole minutes with your face right up along side his, and you were watching the tears rolling down his face all that time?
TONYA: the tears only came about the last couple of minutes. but my face was up against his. all i could hear was the both of us breathing heavily and him grunting until he finally gave up
ANDY: did he ever whimper or cry out
TONYA: not once
TONYA: just very deep grunts
ANDY: how did you know he gave up?
TONYA: he stopped struggling. i held on a bit longer after that and whispered in his ear. and that's when the tears began to fall
TONYA: struggling only increases the pain
ANDY: did you ever feel your own physical strength wavering?
TONYA: no. i had major adrenaline rush
ANDY: did you feel powerful during it?
TONYA: i did feel power. it was amazing - and frightening, because i never thought myself actually capable of such a thing, even though i replayed such instances over and over in my mind when i left Larry
ANDY: the feeling of power is said to be a high like an orgasm is a high. And yet your moralistic mind was still making you feel frightened at your own feelings. Is that correct?
TONYA: yes
ANDY: all of what I just wrote?
TONYA: it was an incredible feeling, but it didn't come close to orgasmic. and yes my mind was making feel frightened about it
ANDY: so, were you scared that you might cause a broken arm?
TONYA: i wasn't really thinking that way at the time, although the thought later crossed my mind. and i am very glad that i didn't apply more pressure
ANDY: you seem to be totally in control of yourself at that time - only using the minimum of force to convince him to give up. Is that correct?
TONYA: i don't know how in control i was. it was like my instincts and my fright took over. i felt that i was using a little more than a minimum amount of force, but i know that i could have applied more
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ANDY: if someone placed you in a situation where you had to fight, would you be prepared to kill if necessary?
TONYA: yes
ANDY: would be resolved to the fact that you may lose your life (meaning you will not panic)
TONYA: yes
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ANDY: what did you think of the #2 one. I contend that those were not tears of pain or humiliation. But tears from deep inside his soul as his lifelong feeling of invincibility was swept away leaving him bare.
TONYA: that's such a deep thought
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ANDY: what was later said about that incident?
TONYA: we never spoke of it again - not one word
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ANDY: what is on my mind - did his behavior and demeanor change from before and after you beat him up?
TONYA: he was not so cocky anymore - at least not around me
ANDY: was there a look you gave him - that would tame him around you?
TONYA: that wasn't necessary
TONYA: he had always been cocky, but never towards me until his friends were over that night