He had to make his partner understand that he hadn't suddenly gone off his rocker, or knuckled under because of some ulterior motive on the part of his spouse. That he wasn't desperate and agreeing to anything, in order to retain a part of his spouse's affection.
The beers appeared and he gathered them up and walked back to the table.
"Ready for round two?" he joked to Sam.
Sam shrugged. The evening had sure turned out differently than what he had been expecting. He'd expected a tearful and then angry Jesse, and instead, he'd got a deep discussion about the meaning of marriage, and what commitment really means.
"Ok, so lots more questions. Or statements, take your pick."
It was Jesse's turn to shrug back. "Go for it. If I can't answer them, then yeah, I need to rethink this, obviously."
"What if it doesn't work? What if she – or you – finds someone that makes you happier? What happens then? How do you judge that, even? At what point do you go 'We need to stop doing this'?"
"Weeelll... good question. Not one I have a prepared answer to. I dunno really. I guess when you feel like there are warning signs?"
"What, her desire to fuck other guys is not a warning sign????" asked Sam, incredulously.
"Yeah, well, when you put it like that, without context, sure it is. But you do have to have context. That's like saying 'We should execute all murderers' without defining what a 'murderer' actually is. Look, when you are ready to propse to a girl, you know when you think its time to pop the question, right? There are no 'rules' for when you do that, right? You do it when it occurs to you that it's the right time. When a whole bunch of things come together in focus and you think 'yep, I'm ready for this'. Right? And I'm presuming that the same happens when you decide to divorce."
"Or have an affair," interjected Sam.
Jesse sighed. "Really? We down to cheap shots now?"
"Well Jesse, you gotta admit. She ran around on you. Showed you and your relationship deep disrespect. That's a bitch of a thing to deal with. From someone you are supposed to trust implicitly."
"I don't disagree with you, Sam. But I'm trying to make a general point here, not a specific one. If I said, 'sure, you are completely right', then my marriage would be entirely done and we'd all have been hurt and upset and eventually, hopefully, healed and moved on. I – we – didn't do that. We decided to make a change, and so far, it's working. Now, if it's your belief that what she did wasn't over come-able, then ok, you believe that. I do not. I'm still married, she still loves me, I still love her, we are still a couple. Your belief on whether I should have stormed out, or kicked someone's ass is immaterial in that situation, because this is about what I did, not what you think I should have done. If you can't see past that, then we are pretty much done with this conversation, yes?"
"Ok, well... I'm not sure we see this the same way Jesse, but ok. Lets move on. You say that you are still married, and she still loves you. How do you know that? How can you trust what she says any more? She's already betrayed you?"
"Well that, Sam, is a really good question. I grappled with that too. Going forward she did everything she could to prove that she was where she said she would be, locationally, to prove she wasn't doing anything else. Do I trust her like I did? Honestly? No. Do I want to? Yes. Will I get there, to the point of pre affair trust? I don't know. I hope so. But one thing I realized recently is that trust is a choice. At least it sort of is. When you don't trust someone, that's not a choice. You can't make yourself trust someone if you explicitly don't. But if you are in the middle, trust is the act of being conscious about it and saying 'I'm going to trust you.' That whole republican Reagan bullshit of 'trust, but verify' is bullshit, because trust is all about not verifying. That's the entire point of trust. But I want to trust her, so I'm moving in that direction. Am I 100% successful in that? Not right now, no. There are consequences for betraying someone, particularly your spouse and it's stupid to think there are not. But at the end of the day, we'll never get back to where we were unless I actively give her the chance to earn it back, right? Do I trust her completely? No. But that's what the post-nup and the other conditions are about, to produce conditions conducive to her wanting to earn that trust back. Not that I think she didn't anyway, I think she'd have given up her left boob to have the opportunity to earn it back. But this... it codifies it somewhat. Gives me something to hold onto. Gives me some of my self-respect back.
"But I didn't answer your original question. About when she finds someone who is more skilled or bigger than me. Someone who makes her cum harder. The thing is, Sam, that's kind of the whole point of the exercise. I'm trying not to be afraid of that. The point of the exercise is for her – and me – to go out there and possibly experience that. And to trust that if/when she gets it, - or I do – that it doesn't trump all the rest of our relationship. If what she says is true of what happened with her brief affair, then it won't, because she's already seen the value of our relationship, and that has very little to do with how hard she might cum on any given night.
"If she does find something that makes her cum hard, then she brings that knowledge back and we work on it together. "
Sam considered what Jesse said, as he took another drink. He found that instead of visceral reactions, he was starting to think about this in a more clinical way. He was still reacting to some statements without much thought, letting his "I be MAN" brain speak first, but some of what Jesse was saying was interesting stuff, when considered dispassionately. Not that he agreed, but it was an interesting discussion to get into.
"What if it's something you can't match? A big cock or a curve in the cock, or a young man's stamina?"
"I dunno, to be honest. I mean, she has the same issue. What if I suddenly get all turned on over a long or deep snatch, or huge tits, or some woman can deep throat me more than Deb's can? It's two sided. Most people just concentrate on the dick thing, because we guys have enormous emotional ego wrapped up in our bedroom performance. But women worry too. Deb's isn't an eighteen year old with abs you can bounce a quarter on, either. The thing is, Sam, people change over time. Your desires, wants, priorities, they change anyway. One day you wake up and suddenly can't deal with the snoring any more, then what?
"That's not to say that we have the answers for everything. Just that I hope – we believe – that our relationship is worth more than a curved cock that hits her G spot, or the ability to deep throat a sausage. We are definitely taking risks here, but at least, so far, the rewards are out pacing the risks."
Jesse stopped to have another beer, and then suddenly held up his hand as Sam started to speak, holding him off.
"Before you go any further, I should say, I don't think this is for everyone. At all. Most people are very brainwashed into what a marriage is and what it should be. Society has set up the way too simple rules of what a marriage is, or should be, and we all measure ours against those group standards. You must be "In Love" at all times, romantic, never cry, make your wife feel like she is everything, and she can never be tired and always put your career first and all the rest of that bullshit. The way most people perceive marriage today is like a bad 1950's TV show. If they think about it at all.
"It's all entirely unrealistic for todays world, man. It just is. They can't see beyond that. Or have the emotional maturity to handle something like this. To be clear, it's not like we aren't aware of the emotional risk that we are putting ourselves in. That's why there are time limits on being with someone, no weekends and things like that. You aren't building an emotional relationship, you are building a purely physical one. Most people aren't able to separate the two, and that's fine, because it's not like it's unhealthy if you can't. That's just how some people are made. I mean, look at you."
Jesse gestured at Sam.
"You are obviously reacting against most of what I'm saying here. You can't conceive of a situation where you would share Janelle, right? It would be an affront to everything you believe in, that a marriage and a long-term commitment is, right? I get that. And there's nothing wrong with that point of view. It would not work for you, and that's fine. I'm not trying to make out that we are somehow more evolved in terms of what a relationship is than you are. Not at all. I respect the hell out of you and your marriage and the relationship you have with your wife. Nor am I trying to persuade you that what we are doing is 'the one true way'. It's not. It's just working for us, because of the doors that inadvertently got opened by Deb's affair."
This statement provoked an immediate response in Sam.
"What about the emotional impact? I mean, you cannot, for a second, make me believe that you are fine and dandy when you know she is out getting laid. That you have no problem when she comes home all sweaty and covered in some one elses cum, and has to kiss you with a mouth that was on some other guys cock a hour earlier? I mean, come on Jesse? I don't mean to be rude – well, maybe I do -, but where the fuck is your self respect?"
Jesse sighed and looked directly at Sam, almost challenging him.
"Yeah, I knew at some point it would come to this. The appeal of the man to another man. Look Sam, I don't own her, ok? The way you are talking you'd think your wife was someone you dragged back to your cave by the way of her hair. We aren't cavemen any more. So much of a relationship these days really seems to be about demonstrable possession. 'You can't do this or that, because it reflects badly on me'. It's not about what the other wants to do, but about perception of how it reflects on them. You think I have no self-respect because I'm not 100% in the same camp as you when it comes to defining what self-respect actually means?
"Look, to answer your other point first, sure, yes it bothers me when she's out having a dalliance. Yeah, it would affect any guy, I know. But this is about me giving something to her, not just about how I may be feeling. My feelings are just as important as hers, which is why when she comes home, she's already showered and douched. Not that I'm likely to want to have sex with her right then anyway. I mean, would you? But she wants to cuddle, to know that our relationship is still there. And she has to do the same when I've been out and had my fun. It's a two way street. She sits at home when I'm out sowing my oats. I don't do it as much as her, but still, I have no doubt she has her moments of self-doubt when I'm out too. You put on the TV, have something to do, try not to think about it too much.
"We don't talk about what she's done very much, unless there is something of importance to know. Although I will say this. One thing this does do is make everything new someone tries with you suspect. So, we are in bed, having fun, she suggests some new position or something, the first thing that goes through your mind is 'where did she learn this?' – and this is a bit destructive. The first time that happened, the mood totally went out of me. We've learned though. Now she'll say 'I just thought of this, what do you think about this?' and if it is something she's learned away from home, then she'll tell me about it when she comes home, rather than in the moment. So far, it's only been a couple of things, but hey, it's enough.
"Oh, I should have said, another rule is this 'nothing for anyone else that she hasn't done with me first'. I'm not about to get her ass after some other guy. That would smack of disrespect, and I'm not about to deal with that, and she knows it. She already walked out of one guy's place for him disrespecting me, and she made no bones about it.
"What we give each other is a gift, and it needs to be treated like that. She gets to play away from home, and I get the same. But it only works with respect. Sure, she's not won the gold medal in that recently, but that's why there are a bunch of rules and policies put in place to ensure she toes the mark. Believe me, she's on thin ice, and she knows it. If anything, the ice is thinner than it's ever been. But she wants to skate, and it costs me nothing to let her."
"How can you say that, Jesse? How can you say it costs you nothing? She's Giving Away What Was Only Meant For You. Sex is intimacy. Some one else is out there smirking about you. Asking why she needs to go find it elsewhere. I mean, how do you answer that to yourself?"
Sam was genuinely interested in the answer. He couldn't imagine a situation where he'd put up with that for a second.
Jesse took his time answering.
"Well, I don't know. What do I care what some random guy thinks about me? I know who I am. Debra knows who I am. You know who I am. My parents and my brother know who I am. All the people who matter know who I am. What do I care what some human dildo thinks? Sure, that gets trotted out while I'm around, he's going to get flattened. But otherwise, what impact does it have on me? Frankly, I'm way more concerned that a play partner for her turns out to be a new client for us. Now that, I think is way more worrisome."
Sam hadn't considered that. "Yeah," he said thoughtfully, "Yeah, that impacts all of us."
"Right, but then the exact same thing could happen if I were single, or you were. I mean, it's not like this kind of thing could never happen. But still, she's under strict orders to find playmates that are not likely to come into our orbit."
Sam shrugged. "I hope that's enough."
"Me too," grinned Jesse. "Look, we are still together, I get to play too. You seem to be focusing on the whole 'I let her play' thing. This is a two way street, although the same rules about playing too close to home apply to me too. I get to participate... well, yeah, that was badly put. We aren't doing threesomes, and if I get a fucking whiff of someone else's cum on her, she's done, and she knows it. It's in her interests to make sure that doesn't happen. She's out of the door with nothing if she does."
Sam took another deep drink, considering everything. He was surprised that he'd gotten over his initial revulsion and was considering the whole thing more as an anthropology experiment than anything. It was nothing he'd ever consider – no way. But it was... well, fascinating wasn't the right word, but there was a certain rubber necking interest involved in hearing about how Jesse and Debs were making it work.
"I don't know Sam. I can't help feeling you're heading for a cliff. I know I couldn't do it. I'm not made to share. Janelle even looks at another man and I'm going to take his fuckin' head off and then throw her ass out."
"Right, I get that. Jealousy is a big part of what I have to deal with. Frankly, I don't enjoy the idea of someone else playing with my toys. I don't get off on it, like some guys. I don't want to know about it, unless there is something I need to know. But I try and get on with it, and treat it like an elaborate game of volleyball. The more time goes on though, the less upset I get. I wouldn't say I'm ok, in a green eyed monster kind of way but I've made my peace with it in terms of this is something we can do and be ok with each other."
Sam had another question he had to ask. "What if you have kids? This whole thing still is crazy to me, but if it's just the two of you – it's just the two of you. But what if it's not?
Jesse took a deep breath and replied. "We talked about that. I worry about it. We do want a family. If Debra gets pregnant, we stop. That's what we agreed to. And then we discuss it one a year – on our anniversary. Maybe we will want to do it again, with more rules to protect the kids. Look, Sam, since we started this we have met other people who have unconventional lifestyles, and yes I am admitting this is unconventional – it's that, but I don't think its wrong. And some people have kids, and they make it work. And a lot take a long sabbatical when the have kids. We will deal with it. We. Debra and me."
Sam looked at Jesse sideways and said, "Well, I have to ask one more thing. You sure there's no desperation in this? I mean, look at it from my point of view. You say she had an affair, and instead of throwing her cheating ass out, she now gets to do it, with your permission. I mean, you can see how that looks."
"Yeah, I know," said Jesse, chuckling lightly. "Looks like I'm a wimp, right? That I'm buckling under. Well, Sam, you know me. What do you think? You think I'd go with that? That I'm a henpecked husband with a wife who doesn't respect me?"
Sam sat still. This answer was deceptively simple, but would have far reaching impact. He did know Jesse. He knew he wouldn't put up with this kind of shit. So there was only one answer really, despite what he thought it looked like...
"No, Jesse, I do not," he said, simply, looking Jesse in the eye while he said it. "I do not, for a second, imagine you are some kind of shitty hen pecked wimp. I can honestly say I don't really understand this at all, and that it's 180 degrees from what I consider a good marriage to be. But... as you say, this is your marriage, not mine."
"Good," said Jesse, just as simply. He held up a drink for Sam to clink, which he did.
"Look, I'm not trying to convert you to our unorthodox approach. I know this isn't what you imagine a healthy relationship to be, but... it works for us. I'm no different than I was yesterday or the day before. I don't expect you to suddenly want to swap wives or anything else like that. This is a separate thing, and to be honest with you Sam, I don't really want to talk about this again, because it doesn't have anything to do with our professional relationship, yeah? I expect you to talk to Janelle about it, but please, make sure she understands that this is a private thing between me and Debs, ok? And if she see's her again, well, understand what she is looking at. Hell, she might see me with someone else. Same rules apply."
Sam nodded, thinking 'Jesus, Janelle and I are gonna have a hell of a conversation when I get home.'
"So, now that's all out there. We good?" asked Jesse.
"Yeah, I think so. But look, if you do end up having sex parties with whips and engine oil and women doing things to each other – then I want pictures, or it didn't happen, ok? We have a deal?"
And then Jesse knew it was going to be ok. Because Sam's sense of humor had surfaced again.
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Re-Reading
I need to re-visit my earlier comments, mostly to re-affirm them.
First of all, if she felt that there was ANYTHING lacking in their marriage, whether it was his time away, the way he left the toilet seat or how much his farts stunk, she had an OBLIGATION to talk to him before doing ANYTHING outside the marriage.
It's pretty obvious that she never would have come to him to discuss the POSSIBILITY of "opening" their marriage if she hadn't been caught cheating. And her "punishment" is to allowed to "play" as long as she follows some rules?
His being allowed to play is a sop because he never really wanted to, as evidenced by the fact that he plays much less than she does. Better to find a compatible couple and play together - while she fucks the husband, he fucks the wife!
The failure of this arrangement is evident in Debra already breaking the rules! I don't think it says when they made the agreement, but they were gone 22 months (or was it 18, both were mentioned), so it has to me somewhat less than that, and they've only been back three months. Even assuming the cheat was in the first month (unlikely in my opinion) plus the four months they were "stable" this would mean the agreement was less than 16-20 months old when Debra broke it, assuming this is the first time! He says she's going to be "grounded" for a few months? She's already shown that she can't be trusted, how can he trust her to obey the grounding? I would cancel the whole agreement effective IMMEDIATELY!more...
Why get married then ?
the problem with infidelity, indeed the difference between infidelity and open marriage, is much more about honesty and trust.
If a couple mutually agrees on some sort of relationship, monogamy, swapping, polyamory, what have you, then there is honest, respect, and trust.
But cheating breaches that agreement. And the relationship that was.more...
but
there is so much not spoken about. By nature men want to protect and keep safe their partner, you can't do that when the wife is picking up random men. There is the physical risk of abuse when a woman is being adventurous, she can put herself at risk with some one she knows little about. Like the BDSM party where she comes across as a loose woman and be an easy target. Then there's the health risks you can't see for some time, remember type two herpes is incurable, HIV has a long incubation period so by time it is discovered it is to late, you have passed it on. Life changing problems like this have varied amounts of risk but one that will really cause pain as mentioned in the statement, stopping if she falls pregnant, it's to late, who's the daddy? There are so many things that can go wrong with birth control, we got pregnant when my wife was having her period or just after, we think two eggs dropped close together. What happens when the DNA don't lie. A wife like this in today's way of life needs therapy, not support by her husband to put herself at risk. TKmore...
Should be required reading for LW readers
Thank you for this thoughtful essay on marriage roles. Putting it into a conversation between friends who have honestly held differences of viewpoint personalizes the concepts. It is so dispiriting to read the vitriolic comments from some readers who react to LW stories as though: 1) the characters were actual people; 2) there is some moral absolutism, known only to the commentator which, somehow, a story betrays; 3) the characters and/or the author is contemptible for imagining a situation which makes the reader face his/her own insecurities. Life IS NOT monolithic. It has as many variations as there are humans. It is OK to depict a variety of life experiences.
Jezzaz is a good writer because he creates complex characters whose actions reveal to us the deeper motivations and inevitable confusions we all have. Whether or not we would chose to do what his characters do is not the point. If the characters are articulately drawn and bring us some degree of insight into them or to ourselves, then it is good writing. His work has this characteristic is spades.more...
the whole premise is based on a lie
the wifes time out, clubbing with men, what she was doing, takes away from the marriage. And it was a BDSM type scene she was in yet Jesse said that was one thing that was not allowed. Sorry the marriage contract was broken with the first cheating and isn't any longer valid or meaningful. 1*more...
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