All Comments on 'Standing at The Cliff'

that the correct answer cucky. woman get everything and you better not question her. if he want to fuck other man YOU SHOULD MAN UP AND LET HER DO WHAT SHE DAMN WELL PLEASES FUCKER.

she earned it.

I hope your editor only provided conceptual input for the story. If he edited the story for grammatical issues, you need a new editor. For me, this story didn't go anywhere. I could never find anything in the story to really keep my interest.

This one I liked a lot. I felt that the complexity of emotions was well explored by Javmor as author. Once again he has used the device of cutting back and forth across time periods and made it work reasonably well. (I say 'reasonably' because it's not a device that I like in most stories.)

Lue

Meh, long winded. No need for the trips down memory lane, they just made what was an okay story boring.

This yarn contains quite a bit of genuine relationship wisdom. The story can't be called superficial. But it is definitely overlong. There is no crescendo to speak of. Only the tedious droning of a deflating dirigible. Down, down, down it sinks, wheezing and exhaling the last of its bouyancy until the last spplllrrrrrp. Hey dude, I'm a real momma's boy, sniff my spplllrrrrp. Yeah, well I did and I was left in a rather torpid condition for all of it. Not exactly fun.

Not sure why it bugs me, but why does every other jagoff author have to tell us to go elsewhere if we want sex uncomplementary to fine literature? For godssakes just write the fckn story and let the chips fall. But the author had to also say how distasteful he finds sex that isn't preceded by a Shakespearean sonnet. Well la de frkin da guess what? A mildly vigorous back alley jerkoff would have been more interesting than this story. /Foley off

Pretty good, keep on writing.

Be sure to include gratuitous sex next time.

She acted little to coldly and angry when he asked her did she ever cheat. Even if she never did he just found out that she was covering for his cheating mother so it was beliveable that he was suspicious of his wife yet she told him with a smirk that she isn't skank like his mother, woman she was protecting. She could be angry at her husband but in that situation that was pretty cold from her.

Thought out story. Lots to think about.

Good beyond words, a story that shows we do not live in isolation and how our actions affect those around us. On discovering the truth Tabby was in a difficult position, she could have told her mum in law to stop or she would tell but she could not police her. Telling Andre would inevitably result in family upset so i suppose she let sleeping dogs lye, i suppose by with holding information is a lie. There is an old saying, "what we do not know we can't grieve over" but of course truth does seem to find the way out eventually. As a short story it's probably one the best pieces about relationships i have read.

P.S. Ignore "numb skull" comments.

my kind of resolution but in looking at the people and the situations it would be easy to fall into the role of liar and ally for the mother. And I do think the point you brought out about covering is condoning was well written and well thought out. I didn't necessarily notice that much in the way of bad grammar or whatever the others noticed but it did wind a little. That's ok. I thank you for sharing your story and you ideas on fidelity. It's not only about actual sex.

Dre acts like a typical only child. He may be right, but it's all about him. Tabby was wrong, for sure, but it doesn't take much to see she was in a very difficult spot.

Loved this. Really well done. Loved the Cliff theme and how you wove it in.

I didn't think the grammar was bad. I actually think it was well edited.

It was a right or wrong choice and she chose the way most women would.never trust a woman until she proves herself, then be vewy vewy careful.

Not very well written, issues all over the place, badly in need of an editor. Preachy and pseudo-philosophical, Shallow, while pretending to address reality. Javmor is a second or third rate talent with delusions of grandeur. This story has no reason for existence. It was certainly not entertaining. 2 stars.

It's called "Non-erotic." Post there. One star for putting it here. Boring as hell.

This was a good look into a subject that a helluva lot of people ( probably most ) do , I know I'm guilty of it . That's saying what society says you need to say , but then not exactly towing the line yourself . As my old man used to say " Do as I say , not as I do ".

I thought the jumps from person to person were done well , that seems to be one of the hardest things that our amateur authors have to learn in a story like this.

This no sex clause that some of the commenters keep harping on is silly , IMO , there's plenty of stories on this site if you simply want to molest yourself , and several actual sites that are nothing but silly little stroke stories ! Plus its in the very forward of the story , stated in black and white ! So don't start bitching if you didn't pay attention to the author's warning ! Rant over .

That's two really wonderful stories in a row Javmor79 , keep 'em coming !

Nothing interesting, just words.

Nothing. Started nowhere and went nowhere. Get an editor, too. Not enough here to make a good two page story.

If Nonethewiser edited this, you need a different editor. Reads like it was written as a class project by high school students.

about life really enjoyed it.

Do people really masturbate to the "consequence" or "drama" type stories? I've always assumed no but there's always someone complaining that the story has no sex.

Anyeay, I found his one sort of middling for you Javmor. It was just a sort of boring read. Maybe just my mood.

Funny thing is, the person I felt most for was Tabby. She was put in an impossible position.

No matter what ppl write, I think it could happen. 5*

A nice change from the usual stuff. I liked the fact that a spouse cheats on the whole family, not just the other spouse concept. That goes ignored in most stories and in life as well. I have seen the child wreckage of a cheating spouse and the ensuing divorce my whole life. No matter what anyone says, a cheating spouse loses their honor and disgraces their family. The children have to live with that disgrace and shame. It is crippling and it has consequences.

I experienced some weird browser issues on Lit. today, and kept getting random garbage between refreshing pages. That's really the only explanation I can fathom for all the negative comments. Perhaps some alternate, soulless, computer generated version of the real story is what those anons. (mostly) were served up. No, the story I read was not only one of your best works, but also the most moving and thought provoking stories I've ever read on this site! Too long? Did that nasty HTML "spam-bot" randomly offer up 20+ page versions? What I read was 5 pages of INTENSITY! Anyone remember that scene in the movie Amadeus where the Emperor tells Mozart there were "too many notes..." in his symphony? Mozart's reply was something like: "there are exactly as many notes as are needed, no more, no less..."! Poor editing and rampant grammatical errors? Pesky web gremlin at work! I think I'm reasonably adept with the English language, but the story I read didn't have any errors that were significant enough to detract from the storytelling. I fact, given the odorous piles of fecal matter that have been getting mid-3 scores lately, I'd say that this is a 6 to 7 on the "new" LW ratings scale, or right up there with Mr (and Mrs) Iverson, oshaw, laptop, etc. Maybe Lit. (with LW as Beta) is testing a new AI, with both random anonymous comment generation and arbitrary auto-voting?

Too much rambling and unnecessary wordiness. Three stars.

Thought provoking

Nowhere close to the writing level as Girlinthemoon's story yesterday, not in the same universe, but this has a better score? Must be those HTML bugs @badinbed was talking about.

A very good story and is in its right place: LW! It's not the first story that addresses the question: A person who covers up for a cheater is a person who condone, agree and see no wrong in cheating? A story about two wives and a man between them (husband and son), so one more reason to be posted LW. A pleasure to read it...4*

1*

It's intelligent. How often can we say that?

not liking a story and a story actually being BAD.

For example, Ian Pears wrote 'The Instance of the Fingerpost'. He is a good writer, wrote in the multiple nuanced languages of the narrators, got tons of details, set up an engaging mystery...and I never finished it, because I could not see myself sitting still to read a THOUSAND pages of 4 different POVs on a single incident.

I did not like the story. That doesn't mean it was bad.

So this '1 bombing' shit really amuses me as assholes using their personal preferences to just be assholes because they don't like a story. Okay. I hope you feel better. You sure showed him!

For the rest of us, this was a good nuanced story with a lot of character development about a very tricky moral dilemma. And he did it well.

This is probably more like real life events than 99.99% of the stories in Loving Wives.

Keep up the good work.

RSKY

The author begins with a long anti-women rant which he insists isn't anti-women. Sure buddy. Whatever you say.

Then the story drags out torturously slowly with more rants and raves. Okay. Okay. We get it. You think women are evil cunts. And you're pandering to the likeminded loons who hang out here.

Tedious. Certainly not erotic or entertaining.

Loved it.

Well done and well written.

annony's wife left his sorry ass and fucked everyone she could find.

It wasn't a typical LW story, but having atypical stories once in a while is good. Perhaps the introspection was overdone a bit; a 4 page story might have been tauter.

I most say this story is a land mark in marriage tail's magnificent just magnificent keep going

Loved this tale of interpersonal strife; it seemed so real and painful. Definitely a 5 star effort. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Well written. The only thing that wasn't as strong was Dad's reasoning for staying with cheating mom, but since it was supposed to be a BS reason anyway, that didn't detract. Keep writing.

For some reason I almost skip by this. I'm SO glad that I didn't! Five big ones!

Some thoughts; as usual I was writing as I went along, so some may be over-taken by future events -

“I'm not a skank. Only your mother does that." – She thinks she’s hurting him telling the truth about his mother? She’s not telling him anything he doesn’t already no!

He’s right about her lying to him. Okay, she’s probably not cheating NOW, but despite her rationale about not hurting him, she apparently doesn’t have enough of a problem with cheating to not cover it up, so it does throw shade on her opposition to cheating.

I was about to join the complaints about the flashback, but then I saw the hypocrisy in what she told him and her own actions, so it worked for me. I know it’s needed for the plot, but unless she knows the girlfriend’s mother or someone in her circle of friends, how would she know about it?

I think he’s wrong to blame himself. If he wants to blame himself for his first family’s death, fine, but that doesn’t mean that he deserves to be shat on by his second wife. Even if he DID, look at what it’s done to Andre!

I don’t think I would have been so hard on Tabby, as long as she was sincerely apologizing and admitting her wrong. You don’t watch TV together, but you have a sex life? Even if it IS on life support!

I can almost have some sympathy for his mother. She never really loved Henry, but married him for noble reasons. But Tabby should never have covered for her, certainly not led to Andre, even if she thought it was for a good reason.

“You cared more about helping my mother cover up her tracks than you did about how it would affect me." – That’s not exactly true. She lied because she was afraid of how it would affect him.

giving you 5 stars. Thanks!

Try getting to the point.

Here you go:

Mom cheated, wife knew. Dad got mad. Mom and dad divorced. Son and wife had an argument; counseling helped. Nobody had hot sex. The end.

Quick enough?

The point of the story is the story.

What you need is Literotica: Headline News. Check back in a few years when everyone's attention span is 2 minutes. Like yours.

but the tensions and emotions ebb and flow sometimes a bit unevenly for dofferent characters and the dynamics in each marriage could be explored a bit more thoroughly. Instead of the characters interacting with the good and evil, the story seems told about and not by them.

Im on pp4 and cant go on without giving you a piece of my mind.

This was great for a while, but you just glossed over and dropped a huge fuking concern of the story and you keep ignoring the elephant in the fukin room.

Your hero is someone you portray as smart and a real man, yet you ignore him rolling over to Tabby and then he ends up on pp4 blaming himself for 'punishing' his loving wife.

Like the double standard he discusses in the story, you are doing the same. He has already proven Tzbby a liar. Why, knowing she lies, do you and he conveniently allow no care zs to the fact she hasnt yet told him where the fuck SHE was that day? Why does she get a free pass.

Once in my life a strange circumstance occured involving MY wife. I took her down and pulled off her slacks and panties. Its pretty easy to check a pussy to see if its been just recently fucked. There was no way I was going to bed not knowing whether she was going to crawl in our bed or on the couch.

He would have done the same if he was a man and smart. So which is it-is he a man or is be just dump.

Now, i will return to pp4 and see if you left the hole in this story or if you filled it in.

What was headed for a 5 is probably not going there now.

Are the scum of the earth. After 30 years when I found my missing father, I had every intention of beating the snot out of him. But what I found was a sick old man. He had a new family which he couldn't provide for very well due to his age. I figured he did more damage to himself than I was going to do and let it go. If I had found him ten years earlier though...We were left with nothing and lived in the projects for years. That tends to make a kid angry.

I thought it was a great story. Good character development. Thought we could have heard a little more about Tabby, and her life. Otherwise, great story.

Are supposed to believe the lying Tabby who, when her marriage was on the fuking line, couldnt find a way to tell her husband where the hell she had been all Super Bowl Sunday.

We are supposed to believe she was telling the truth when she said she wasnt fuking around on him when we know birds of a feather.....

UGBFKM

So, tell us now please, what innocent thing was she doing all day that she couldnt tell her husband.

Sorry, Jav. I really expected better from you.

***

The company it's in make it look better. The best story written today. Not a very high standard. Compare it with stories written by people with actual talent and it looks pretty threadbare. It is boring. None of the characters are interesting and they never do anything to grab the eye or attention, either. He's an extremely egotistical "I write about the REAL world," kind of wirter. His scores generally reflect his mediocrity. Low 4's. Everyone gets in the low 4's these days. Run of the mill.

A little overwrought when it came to the trust issues. 5*

She said she was with her mother.

Easy to check

It isn't about her cheating. It is about her lying.

Very well done. I like that nobody (maybe aside from the biological father) is treated like a one-dimensional cliche. They are all allowed at least one moment that paints them in delicate, intricate depth.

J., Reading the comments tells a lot. Many folks commented on the first day this story appeared. Secondly, the LW crowd is a divergent bunch. Unfortunately, many are "haters" on one side or the other. Some are BTB, some are cuck fans etc. This makes it hard to see the merits/demerits of a FICTIONAL story from several of the comments . Their personal biases prevent an unemotional comment on the story itself but heh, a few times I have been just like "them"

I really enjoyed the story. Lots of "clay feet"to be found among the 4 principle characters . Charles doesn't count since he is just a horn dog disguised as a weapon or vice Versa. Your story twists were believable and ratcheted up the storyline at appropriate times. Your editor did an excellent job

Please keep sharing your stories

Ed

Great characters, nice storyline, and you resolved the plot twists with dignity and class. Thanks for your story!

This is far and away the best story I have read in 2 years on this site.

This cut to the heart. Maybe it was the right answer, maybe not.

"Dad" was the real dad. He was a father to look up to, to learn from and have talks with while growing up to become the man "Dad" wanted him to become. "Dad" was and is A GOOD MAN.

Charles was just a sperm donor. So true in so many cases today. But it isn't always the sperm donor at fault. It also has to do with the other party enjoying the sex and then a baby is born...for society to raise just like a whole village raises a baby.

Although Tabby lied to cover up the deceit, the mother was wrong to have HURT "Dad" and in turn to hurt DRE (Andre). But one family was saved and a baby was born in love.

.

Must be up there in the best stories posted...top 10 for sure

Many thanks.

..In this author's life, that much is obvious. The emotions here are far to real to be just totally made up.

Which makes the story..

excellent.

Thanks,

MGM

But Tabby was put in an impossible position by her mother-in-law. Basically both gals knew that Andre would immediately tell his father provoking no end of problems. The mother-in-law had the pressure on Tabby and made her feel that if she spoke out she would carry all the guilt and it is well known that people kill the messenger.

I liked the story. When I read the story, and I admit, I semi skimmed because of time constraints, I was of the opinion that the male protagonist was immature, self important, and inflexible. HE made the decision to destroy the marriage of his father and mother, who may have had a nice, comfortable old age together if he would have confronted his mother and requested she stop. Knowing her son knew of her nefarious activities may have been enough to wake her up and stop the cheating for good. But he never gave his mother or father this option. He played God well.

Son's wife was placed in a very terrible situation. She had the same choice her husband had but made the opposite decision. Son showed little or no understanding or empathy for the wife's position in this drama. He has a black/white view of the world and right and wrong. Unfortunately, we do live in a world where the are Shades of Grey.

I vacillate between feeling what I have written above and feelings just like the son's although because of my profession I have to deal in the grey a lot while trying to make the morally correct decisions. In reality, I may have felt and acted just like the son did if given the choice although I hope I would have tried to come up with a solution that may have been better in the long run for my parents.

anon.1

the "jumping off a cliff" analogy with telling the truth, bringing it out into the open, doing the inescapable to relocate integrity. Either way, if you survive, you still end up with broken bones that may or may not heal straight.

A story like this can raise all sorts of questions if you want to think about them. Moral questions as well as the practical and human ones.

Perhaps the biggest is should a wife keep a confidence from her husband? How big a confidence? Finding out that his mother was committing adultery was bad enough, but the way it was discovered led him to doubt his wife's fidelity and question whether he could ever trust her again.

Human reactions may also be questioned. At the beginning Andre is shown to be so fragile that he contemplates jumping off the cliff because of his mother's and wife's actions. Then at the end he goes nuclear when he is taunted by the man he blames for the whole episode. Both rather extreme responses to provocation?

All in all, interesting. And, as FD45 said in an earlier comment, there is a vast difference between not liking what a story is about and the story being bad. As did FD45, I question whether several readers making comments thought about that difference.

Lue

You forgot the other epilogue where Henry nails Tabby doggy-style while Dre does his mom in a sex swing.

I liked the Story. And can understand where he was coming from. It's hard to Trust when the one's you trust are breaking the Trust. as for the wife I would question her Fidelity esp. knowing that she has known for a Long Time. About his mother's little Affair. Nice to see Dad step in and send the Creep packing at the Hospital.

This story reminded me a little of thecelt's story, A Child's Punishment. It's really hard to be a parent and have a hardheaded child. Fortunately, the narrator got over his self-righteousness and was able to keep from destroying his marriage.

We don't keep secrets from each other in our marriage. Whether it's our other partners (which we occasionally have) or things people tell us, everything is above board. If someone wants to tell one of us something and doesn't want it shared between us, we say don't tell us.

Tabby should have told Dre what she saw, and then they should have weighed the pros and cons of telling Dre's dad together. Dre's distrust was totally justified even if he was something of a drama queen.

One of the best stories I have read on here. It was well written and had a sense of completeness many stories here lack. Very well done!

I really can't understand those illiterate naysayers and there illogical reasoning for not liking this well thought out story. This a story that is real and can happen in this life. To bad not enough sex,the author warned you, wrong cateragory, where are your brains dumb asses. Both parties where married then the shit hit the fan. You jerks are in the wrong world.

I do not usually read all the comments, but this story was so good I wanted to read it again and the comments. Good does not mean perfect. Like the characters, it has flaws. One flaw is not explaining that his wife was not just trying to protect him, she was afraid for her own well being. Being the bearer of bad news has gotten people killed. In this case while she should have told him, she would also have been permanently associated with a horrible event if she just blurted it out. She should have found another way. Married means: MARRIED. Not two separate people - one couple, no secrets.

You had well-drawn characters faced with problems

that are not at all easy to deal with.

Your protagonist was a decent guy put in a tough situation and he did

what he thought was needed -- and learned some lessons as well.

Very good

Biblical scripture (yeah, to those of you who disbelieve in that stuff, I know, ok? but hear me out anyway, because there IS wisdom in this despite the, for you, dubious source) says in SEVERAL places (varying a bit with differing translations) in Genesis 2:24, again in Mathew 19:5, and further in Mark 10:7 that basically " a man SHALL leave his father and mother and CLEAVE to his wife" (I'll omit the obvious becoming one flesh part as obvious for our purposes here). The word CLEAVE here means that they basically become welded, one to the other such that for all purposes they are together one indivisible whole. This means that the are one not only physically(/sexually), but mentally, spiritually, ethically, and in every other measurable and definable respect ONE SINGUAR ENTITY except for the obvious fact that they continue to exist as separate physical beings in different physical bodies.

So, what inevitably happens when we fuck up the communications? We break the weld. We violate the cleaving. We introduce distrust, and pain between each other.

This is true whether it involves matters sexual or otherwise. Any distrust, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant, is like the sub-microscopic cracks the precede metal fatigue welds between two different pieces of metal. The solution for them is to heat-treat the whole with pressure and pain to heal the bond and restore the weld, just like what happens when two welded piece of metal are trying to fall apart from one another.

If we were truly able to live up to the theoretical standards of such a relationship as described by that word cleave, then dishonesty between a husband and wife would be utterly unthinkable. However, we are imperfect beings, and we are prone to error as an inherent function of our limited, flawed, physical bodies. Therefore, dishonesty can still happen, especially when our imperfect selves try to use imperfect means of communicating discordant ideas and facts between conflicting desires and forces working between and amongst ourselves. In short, we're prone to fuck up the communications - for a whole host of reasons.

This story is one of the best exemplars of that truth. Now, those of you who inherently distrust things biblical should ask yourself one question. How is it that this "pile of myths, legends and lies" (or whatever other derogatory phrases you choose to hurl at scripture) manages to capture an essential truth so well that it also reflects what science/physics has told us happens at the submicroscopic levels between pieces of metal? ...just a point for you to ponder.

Good story - 5* from me for javmor.

None of the people who make comments I look for even commented on this story. That probably says a lot about this author, too. I've never read a single enjoyable story by Javmor79. Don't intend to try anymore. AMF

A very good story, covering a variety of points of view from the different characters.

It worked really well.

Yes,I am biased. Javmor is a friend, and when my schedule allows I try to help him with his stories by making suggestions and by editing. I did that for this story. If there are - as some have suggested - major (or minor) grammar, spelling, continuity or other editing problems, that's on me.

But the story is all Jav's and it is a great story. It's about actual and perceived norms and expectations. It's about hating what people do (or did) without hating the person. It's about compromise, and when it's okay, when it's not okay and when it's really hard to know the difference. It's about relationships, and what we expect from them, require from them, can forgive in them and cannot forgive. It's about growing up, and learning that life isn't always simple, clear or fair.

I know, and certainly Javmor knows, some will not like it. Some will not like anything Jav writes. Some will like it and say nothing. The best will offer good critique that will make the author even better.

I am glad most liked it. I am proud to have played a very small role in producing something that gave many people something to enjoy and think about.

marry the woman i love with all my heart. She carries a torch for her first love, i won't compete with that.

try to ascertain the difference between damage or destruction and what can you live with, TK U MLJ LV NV

But not enough plot. So Mom and Dad have a problem in their marriage. Not the daughter in laws job to rat her out. The DIL did not cheat, no indication she would. After the boy threw a fit that lasted for 3 or 4 pages, so she covered for his mother.

In general, keep your nose out from between other people's legs. It's none of her or her husbands business.

And in the end all was as it was in the beginning. The child's shit fit tantrum was nothing but high drama to demand attention.

I really enjoyed this story! I couldn't put it down until it was finished. There was just something about it that kept me intrigued! Thanks for sharing!

"Dre?" Seriously, dude? Are we going to bust out the dreadlocks now? Low rent literotica, minus the "erotica." This isn't the place for this boring crap writing. Post it on some wanna be a writer blog somewhere. This is an erotic site. This guy doesn't write erotica, he writes psychobabble. This ain't rap-erotica. Dr. Dre is embarrassed.

So, are you saying that if the character id black, then this must be about a rapper? If I used a more Caucasian name, then it would have been more acceptable?

I really would like an answer, if you are still reading.

Well written, no problem with the length. Keep up the good work.

His wife should have left him. He talks about honesty and fidelity, did he tell his wife that he was going to the Super Bowl party? No, HE LIED! Did he tell her he was in town? No, HE LIED!

He blames his mom for cheating and breaking up the family, he blamed his step dad for being a pussy, he blamed his father for not being a man and he blamed his wife for lying to him. Every chapter, every page was him justifying his reaction, his self righteous fury; but the only one he had to blame is himself.

We can't control what other people do, we can only control our reactions to those events and his reaction showed him to be a self righteous cocksucker who needed a good swift kick in the ass.

And Tabb should have divorced him. No one deserves to be treated the way he treated her. Especially considering he lied just as much.

Whackashit should find a quiet corner and go fuck himself. I don't agree with anything he said.

Whackadoodle raises a good point.

If A lie is enough to 'destroy my trust in her as a woman', then this guy is just as guilty because he was going out of his way to deceive his wife about HIS activities. If she was in a suspicious frame of mind, she might wonder if his friends are covering for HIS infidelity...if we are fair.

But there is also a difference between 'white lies' and 'black lies'. For whatever reason, we put his lying by omission to see the Patriots get gang fucked into the white lie category.

But the wife hiding something about his mother is a 'black lie' thing.

So...help me out here. Him lying about something irrelevant to save getting an eyeroll from the wife is okay because...why?

But wife lying to avoid two full marriages being destroyed is evil because...

I caution my kids to never EVER lie to me. And I teach them lying is wrong. But what if someone has a gun to their head and a lie can save them? Is that a black lie or a white lie?

If we excuse lying in critical situations, then we are stuck debating if THIS lie was 'critical' or not. Which is a perfectly valid debate.

For myself, I would have pissed and moaned at the wife for about 3 months BUT let her make it up. Because of this little thing called empathy. She was in an impossible spot. But I can forgive her because it was to SPARE pain to three people.

Note: She tried to CORRECT the mom! Twice! So she redeemed herself at least enough to warrant some consideration.

YMMV

Granted Andre may be guilty of hubris but his whole value system was built on that. Both his parents are at fault for not making him more aware of human frailty.

Whackadoodle may be full of crap but does make a point that any lies according to Andre's own hubris should have been unacceptable.

I didn't even realize it when i wrote it, but it is funny how we view lying. FD45 says there are differences between "white lies" and "black lies". White lies are things like, "Yes honey, that new haircut does make you look like Halle Berry." vs. "black lies like, "No honey, I wasn't sleeping with your sister."

There is a Black Lies Matter joke in here somewhere, but i digress. (LOL)

As FD45 pointed out, one of those lies destroys relationships, while the other simply avoids an awkward conversation. Lying is lying, but the effects that those lies have can determine if they are "acceptable casualties".

That's my thinking at least. But if you think about it, we all lie. I "was sick" on Super Bowl Sunday when my job needed me to handle something that I felt could wait until Monday. My wife bought a dress that looked rather expensive, but she calmed my nerves by letting me know that she got "a great deal" on it.

In my opinion, there are no relationships that are completely impervious to lies. No person is completely honest all of the time. We greet people that we don't like with fake cordiality, we compliment ugly kids when we see pictures, we even laugh at lame jokes. Couldn't these be considered lies also? People who are considered honest are the ones who don't tell harmful lies. Tabby's lie was harmful, while Dre's lie was simply being an insensitive jerk.

At least, that's my take on it.

You make a fair point on how hard it is to separate "acceptable" lies from "unacceptable" lies. There is no hard and fast rule. And zero tolerance is nonsense. We all fib a little. I guess my personal way of dealing with it is whether it's a lie that is situational (you expect to admit it without even being caught, and if confronted would admit it, and you know the person you are saying it to would not be all that upset). This is like when I am meeting my worrying parents and I tell them I am arriving a few hours after I expect to arrive. I really don't do it -entirely- to spare the, from worrying but mostly to give me some breathing space. But an ongoing lie that you don't plan to admit and that you know will be hurtful is in the unacceptable category. These may be too easy. I am sure there are examples that get closer to that fuzzy line where it's not so clear. I think in this story, Dre's lies were pretty clearly more benign than Tabby's. But it also shows that Dre is not perfect, and his own obvious flaws make the story more real. There are not all that many one dimensional people in life, and in this story Javmor has written 4 primary characters that are multi dimensional.

This was beautifully told. Very deep. You may well be the best writer active on this site. Five stars. An instant favorite.

I teach an ethics class and I recently had them do an assignment on lying. There is an interesting scientific study that says that white lies are actually "pro-social" lies, ones that we commit in an attempt to build relationships and fit in with others. Then there are the anti-social lies that are more deceptive, selfish and cause harm. These undercut social relationships, especially when discovered. All of the students argued for there really being no distinction between the two. I was a bit surprised, especially given the way our society lies so frequently. One student even argued that if the little white lie was revealed for what it was, as in the case of telling your wife that a particular dress doesn't make her look fat (even though you think it does), it would cause significant harm. It would undermine everything else that we say. I think it all comes down to the fact that we are generally bad when it comes to communicating, and instead of being better communicators, we resort to lying to cover our weaknesses. My wife actually wants to know how the dress makes her look. If I were a better communicator, I might be able to find a loving way to tell her without it hurting her feelings. If we had a closer, more trusting relationship, my telling her would not be received as hurtful. She would appreciate it. After all, I've heard her best girlfriend tell her that a dress makes her look fat, and she never gets hurt or pushes her friend away. In fact, in many ways, her friend is closer to her than I am.

First off the LW gestapo should be Happy the story did have a cheating / Loving wife.

More importantly I have to agree it did not need any sex. It would have taken away from the story as it was written. This will be one story I will read again and stick in my mind to think about 'lies'. Powerfully written - good characters and storyline! Definitely 5 stars all the way!

Please keep writing and I will keep reading!

dude the issue or problem is YOU. Really.

WHY are you in love with a women who REALLY deeply loves someone else?

WHY are spending time with a woman that views YOU " stop gap" or ' temporary" or " 2nf choice "...?

Even if you are fucking stupid as to hang around her until she wakes up or grows up or realizes that her 1st love is not coming back... she will always blame YOU

Wholeheartedly agree with KenfromIndy very well written and exceptionally mature story. Probably one of the most creative and original stories to be published in LW in several years. Five Stars

Most original? Most creative? Best active writer? You've got to be kidding? That's hyperbole, right? A sort of okay story by a sort of okay writer. Four little hot marks out of 30 stories is the best active writer on the site? You must not read very much. Javmor isn't in the top 25 active writers in LW, much less on the site. Boring ass story about boring ass people.

Wow. What a dumbass. Anyone who tries to say that Javmor can't write his ass off is a retard. Okay writer? Apparently, no one agrees with you. Those red H's are subjective because assholes like you try to judge a story by your own personal feelings. Girl in the moon has LW stories that don't even break 4 stars. Is she a shitty writer?

I am glad I read this tale. I will remember it. It made me start thinking about things I would not have thought about otherwise, and they are things I should be thinking about.

Ergo ... Five Stars!

Nice story that felt real to me.

Nuff said.

One of the best stories I've read on here in some years. Great work, Javmor

10 stars and a shout out.

Congratulations Mr Javmor, on a very enjoyable, well written, original story. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

This was a very well written story that has more true-to-life aspects of family scenarios in it. There were complex facets of Andre's biological parents, his step father who really was a father to him and his wife who tried to do the correct thing. In this case it was difficult to determine for his wife, what would be the right thing,

In the end, karma won and in spite of all the hurt, a good part of life wins out.

Well done or good and faithful servant.

Keep writing!

Tiny Tim