All Comments on 'Incest: Debunking the Myths'

I am very impressed with how you have turned this topic from being a stigma for anyone who has experienced or has fantasied about incest into being a much more ideal circumstances. I am very glad to see someone respond to the incest myths using logic and reason rather than just emotional blabber. brava on your very well formed essasy and kudos for having such inspiration to adress these myths.

Well done for opening up this area for discussion. I pretty much agree with all your open ended topics in that incest, as percieved by logical thinking people must be consensual. If it is not it is a different crime altogether.

Incidentally, I have not been able to find a reference to the punishment for a guilty verdict on consenting adults. Do you have a refernce point for this?

You provide some dencent evidence why incest in itself should not be such a stigma. Maybe you are correct that some of the old arguments against incest have lost some validity in a modern age. Although you seem to to forget that there are many people who still reject the use of contraceptives,let alone abortion, and that in the real word contraceptives fail. However, you have certainly not dealt with all possible issues.

1) Incestual sex with a child, I think you agree, is inappropriate. One reason that this is true is that the adult or older relative is in a position of power over the child. Similarly in any relationship where one partner has significant power over the other, the development of sexual relations is problematical. This is in part the basis for the ban on sex betwen professors and students at most undergraduate universities. In incestual relationships, particularly those betwen parent and child, whatever the age of the participants, this is frequently an issue.

2) In an ideal modern world without your myths, social issues, etc. and with ideal participants, maybe incest could be pure and free from repercussions. However, in our world, incest is usually accompanied by guilt and confusion in the participants. In dealing with other people, these types of problems are even more magnified. Lets say you engage in incest with a parent, and have (as is likely) another parent, siblings or subsequently get married. Do you hide the incest from your other parent, siblings or spouse, creating a lie beween you? What happens when they find out, by accident, or perhaps because you have to tell them because you have VD? On the other hand, if you tell your other parent, siblings or spouse, will their relationship with you or your parent be affected? We can always make new friends and new relationships, but family is forever, and incest can certainly destroy families.

You are indeed 1337. Don't forget to write your inbreeding essay, I've heard interesting things about that scientifically speaking. I'm impressed, this was incredible.

Excellent! Well stated debunking of the myths and "BS" surrounding one of the last taboo sex acts. Consenting adults are consenting adults, regardles of their kinship.

I have not seen any data proving/showing that all people carry 30-100 destructive recessive genes. Some genetic properties are only transmitted through the mother which limits any immedaite tendencies. All genes are not recessive, try doing without any.

If anyone looks at the "pure bred" dogs, cats, horses, roses, cattle, etc. you are seeing the result of deliberate inbreeding to produce a desired off spring.

Any fears that society has towards genetic inbreeding are primarily religious, something out of hte moral mindset we are in because of culture. It is kinda like the American belief that a seeing a woman's naked breasts incites rape, murder and civil disorder. People in cultures that do not have this mindset do not get the same degree of sexual excitement over violation of natural laws that Americans do.

The possibility exists for a combienation of recessive genes when any two closely related "parents" produce offspring just as the possibility exists for a "better" product.

And no I am not part of any type of incestual mating, neither descendant nor participant.

Ok, I thought it might be entertaining to read your defense and apology for the practice of incest. Effort went into this work, and at least you tried.

Problems? Many. Your conclusions as to your selected 'myths' were not supported by any scientific data. Nowhere do you write "Cornell University has found, after a three year study of victims of incest, that the following..."

So, your 'essay' doesn't get above the level of your opinion. Those individuals who have commented that this 'essay' involves logic and thought, well, my hunch is that those folks don't think that well. Look at the typos in their comments, look at the comments, no Einsteins there.

(For a fun study on incest between consenting adults, watch 'Caligula' the movie.) Many ancient cultures, from Egypt to Hawaii, practiced incest in their royal families.I was keyed into reading your post because I thought you were writing about Greek Mythology, where Zeus had relations with his daughters.

Myself, I could write that 99.99% of all incest cases involve 'dirty old men' raping innocent three year olds, (and if I did write that I am certain that Lit would publish it). That sort of bs has as much scientific basis as the gibberish that you have submitted. Did you debunk the myths? Not in my opinion.

Politely put, there are some serious flaws in this argument. First, your distinction between incest and pedophilia is semantic, saying nothing about the actual context in which incest is most likely to occur. As to Myth #1, given the human track record on STDs and unwanted pregnancies, your conclusion that incestuous couples will logically act responsibly falls short of the complexities of human behavior. Myths # 3, 5 and 6 are not serious arguments to begin with, and were hardly worth your answering. This relates to the third problem in your essay: that you basically ignore the other sides’ argument on its merits, answer a weaker position of your own devising, and then suggest we rebuild our knowledge of incest from the ground up. You state in your conclusion that “The burden of proof that incest can sometimes be beneficial, or at the very least harmless is now up to those who have experienced it firsthand, and those curious souls who are willing conduct studies of consensual incest.” Have you made any attempt to locate and read such clinical literature? It does exist. You either haven’t read the relevant studies or simply refuse to address them here - in either case your essay becomes pointless. The nature of news reporting on incest may produce only certain types of cases, but pointing to the unreliability of the news would only be relevant if the media was the source of the argument against incest. To borrow your metaphor, a great many shoddy books and documentaries have been produced arguing for the existence of aliens. But, if genuine scientific evidence suggesting life on other planets were accumulated, it would be intellectually dishonest for someone to continue arguing we are alone in the universe by picking apart the above mentioned pop-culture ephemera. Arguing from the silences of news reports to suggest that consensual sex between adults is a common form of incest is a non-sequitur. You can assume nothing about such hypothetical unreported cases, let alone derive evidence that moves beyond the anecdotal to the statistical. A good rule of thumb for avoiding both the dogmatism of old ideas and the faddism of new ones is that radical claims require radical evidence. You provide none.

You never actually proved anything that you said. You just said things were true and went on without any backup at all.

I'll stay with my opinion that incest is wrong, thanks.

Very interesting title, not so interesting an argument!

No myths debunked, no taboo's normalized, no reasoning, to not support the spiritual and moral beliefs we're (mostly)

all brought up with.

However,

A Great Effort for a first time author on a subject that is publicly only seen as immoral and verging on the criminal.

Isn't it amazing how many stories are written on this subject though? And how many of us actually are drawn to the subject?

I applaud your effort and hope for more sustenance on your next "essay"!

Maybe you should just write a really good incest story instead of trying to prove its merit!

I'm amazed by some of these comments. You really think this "debunked" anything? The arguments are shallow and obvious and didn't explain or examine anything. I don't feel enlightened, or even very interested. Nice try, but it falls way short of what you hoped to accomplish.

Unfortunately, this is a one sided position that seems to advocate it which is rather unfortunate. Some idiots may try this now. Perhaps its the inbreeding.

Even though you didn't back up many of your statements sufficiently to convince many people, it is good that you at least are tackling what is a very controversial subject. I think that there are probably several people who practice incest where both involved are consenting. Now that we have modern methods of birth control, the chance of an unwanted pregnancy is significantly reduced and incest is not the horrifying, risky act that it once was. I always wanted to have sex with my father and I suspect he was interested, too, but we never did it and I regret it to this day. I think we would have been wonderful lovers and I could have helped reduce his sexual frustration since my mother apparently wasn't too interested because of things that had happened in her life. I loved my father a great deal and would have been happy to have been his lover and it would have been a good experience for me as well. He could have had me whenever he wanted as I was always very horny for him. This would have been completely voluntary on my part. I think we need to re-think the whole issue of voluntary incest.

Scientifically, you proved nothing. Having said that, though, you have addressed an interesting topic from a different point of view. I also noticed that of the 13 previous comments on your essay, only 2 were not Anonymous. Hmmm, could this mean there is much more interest in this topic than people will admit? To return to my original sentence, while I agree with your position, you really did not address your points using scientific methods or statistical analysis. Thus it will be easy for those who disagree to throw stones at your essay. Very nice first try, and congratulations for having the courage to address one of the last taboo areas in society.

FWIW, in my state of residence, incest is legally defined as only between direct family members. So consentual sex between cousins, for instance, is not considered incest.

you have tackled a variety of "myths" ("assumptions" would be a more appropriate word) but left out a very real aspect of incest; that being emotional damage. Unless an incestuous couple is going to be a couple all their lives, sooner or later they will "break up" like any other couple. At that point, irreparable damage may be done to the family, as like other couples that divorce or break up, their ability to share space will be strained and other family member could be forced to "take sides"; the family unit will be weakened. Unless an incestuous couple can be nothing more than "fuck buddies", this is almost unavoidable.

I noted nearly every post here has missed the most important and fundamental statement you made, "Consenting Adults". Far too many still equate and confuse criminal actions and/or coercion, vs informed consent between adults. Dr Gloria Brame in her book "Different Loving", examines the foundations of our, (American primarily) societal mores an ethos re sex an sexuality and shows direct causual links to the lack of critical and non-judgemental research into any bahaviours that fall outside the "norm", be it homosexuality, TV, TG, D/s, BDSM, kinks, or fetishes, etc. and yes even this oh so taboo subject here... Your Essay on How To was also well done and informative and as you so aptly discerned and described the differences between erotica and porn, the emotional and intellectual changes that accompany an individual's decision to have an incestous relationship of whatever sanguinuity should also be shared in forums such as this.... Myths abound re this and all other aspects of our sexuality, and only open and repsectful discourse will allow us to grow an accept all manners and behaviours that encompass healthy, loving, and nurturing relationships between Consenting Adults.... Please continue to post and share and do not let those who flame and rant discourage you from this most courageous an much needed discourse....

Pax

HL

SS&C

"Courtesy Costs you nothing yet gains you Everything" Lady M

"I cannot Live without books" T Jefferson

i have always wonder about womens getting used to sex. even these liberated days, girls hear it is wrong..., then, put a ring on their finger, say a few words and, for far too many..the guilt just doiesny go awaw. now, the mantra is abortion...feel guilty and i easily feel that the trauma is very difficult,but..made moee difficult by the its wrong...its wrong statements. i feel if you raised someone for 18 years preaching it is a sin to eat peas, for the rest of their life, they woulf at least have some guilt pangs. personally, i cannot imagine having a sexual attraction for any of my children. i mean there are very few women in my life that i wouldnt..or havent taken a shot it...but i cant comprehend being turned on by one of my children. on the other hand, i left home quite young, wit a mother who was widowed young. i still have a vision in my mind of her around the house in a housecoat sloipping up over her thighs. if i had been injuxtaposition to her when i got older, im quite sure i would have happily fucked her. likewise, my two sisters. they were much younger, i was gone from the home when they were old enough. both were married early and were really saw little of each other in adulthood. i do recall vividly, one of trhem cupping my cock and kissing me while on a trip home. if my wife and her husband hadnt been in the living room,i think she would have gone at it just as eagerly as i would. the only thing that would make you feel guilty is the attitude of people drawb basically fro tales handed down over centuries and published in the bible, the greatest sciene fiction-fantast book of allo time, filled with sex, violene and yes, incest. who did adam and eve fuck?

You can't be serious. Dear God.

As others have said, this lacks any real debunking of myths surrounding incest. Better, perhaps, would have been some statistics (though I know they are hard to find) or personal stories of those involved in loving, consensual incestuous relationships.

That said, I still think this is a good article. Unfortunately, most people are going to hate it anyways just based on the subject matter, but I think it addresses a lot of the reasons that people do seem so uncomfortable with incest.

Good job.

My parents were cousins and I turned out phine.

I dont agree with every thing you say - but you got guts

OK, so I've now read at least the most recent page of comments left regarding this article. Many readers have responded with less than positive feedback regarding the nature of your method for discussing the flaws in these 'myths,' labelling it an unscientific and requesting statistics. I feel the need at this juncture to remind these readers that not every essay is written as a scientific or statistical piece. Instead, I found this essay to be a wonderfully fashioned example of an argumentative essay. It is not, by nature, written to be a scientific or statistical work. Instead, "an argumentative essay is constructed around an explicit declaration known as the hypothesis or conclusion that is questionable within the field in which you are studying. Argumentative essay reveals that your statement (opinion, theory, and hypothesis) about some observable fact is correct or more precise than others’ are" (according to essaystart.com).

OK, so I've now read at least the most recent page of comments left regarding this article. Many readers have responded with less than positive feedback regarding the nature of your method for discussing the flaws in these 'myths,' labelling it an unscientific and requesting statistics. I feel the need at this juncture to remind these readers that not every essay is written as a scientific or statistical piece. Instead, I found this essay to be a wonderfully fashioned example of an argumentative essay. It is not, by nature, written to be a scientific or statistical work. Instead, "an argumentative essay is constructed around an explicit declaration known as the hypothesis or conclusion that is questionable within the field in which you are studying. Argumentative essay reveals that your statement (opinion, theory, and hypothesis) about some observable fact is correct or more precise than others’ are" (according to essaystart.com).

If women are also interested in incest, why are almost all of the incest stories written by men?

Not only have I read both of your essays, I have read all of the comments on this one.

Fact: a good deal of the criticism for your subject comes from those unwilling to actually face you, as it were.

Fact: The title itself never states that this is a work of scientific merit. It is your essay and therefore your take on this subject.

Fact: you have stated that you have experience in this subject and therefore I, personally, find you more credible as to this subject. No, I can't verify it, nor do I know you to do so, but what is served by arguing this?

While I do agree that there is a lack of scientific data to support your claims, there is no point in getting as angry as those before me. I enjoyed it for what it was: your writing.

I will admit that I enjoy the genre, and had more than a passing fancy in one of my cousins...perhaps two...but nothing ever happened. I accept who I am with all of my quirks and follies. It sounds as though you do as well. For that, I applaud your writing on such a taboo subject.

(Not bad for a guy on his BlackBerry!)

The article itself is not funny. What i find funny is some of the responses against it. They kick the article over "scientific merit" and "is it really an essay?" as well as "you didn't debunk any myths!".

Well, I would suggest that the writer alter the title to ,"questioning the image of incest". It avoids "scientific","essay" and "debunking". It merely brings up a question and discusses it.

Religion is a funny thing. It seems that the leaders of churches seem to say one thing and do another a lot. Religion has a way of burning rules and regulations into the mind. People will go by what they are told without questioning anything. They will snap at those that dare question long held beliefs, even if they are mindful not to attack the other person's beliefs. So i agree with the idea that you could guilt people into not eating peas.

I don't agree with people that nitpick at an article and attempt to completely discredit it over such. Just because people are uncomfortable about a subject simply because they are programmed to do so by society is not a reason to attack the writer. People won't even think that they were programmed to respond negatively to such a topic, that speaks volumes against their argumentation.

I guess people need to ask if they believe psychology is a science or if its a fraud. If they believe that it is a science and that it is useful then they should look into it. Frued, i know i butchered his name, suggests that all boys want to sleep with their mother and all girls want to sleep with their father. If this is true then everyone has been in an incestuous state of mind naturally.

If we have all been in such a state of mind then everyone suggesting that the topic is disgusting is a hypocrite. personally i remember being young and a brother of mine was always trying to peak when my mom would say not to go into her room because she was changing. he was a pain about a lot of things but would behave half the time. However 100% of the time we were told this he was trying to take a peek.

when i was that age I didn't peek. I actually did everything to avoid being near the door. In a way I think I delayed what my brother was going through until later in life. For all of my years as a teenager i never thought of any females other then those completely opposite looking then any that were related to me.

However when I hit 21 I started noticing my sisters around the same age as myself. Then a few years later i noticed my attraction to a younger cousin who everyone thought was 18. A few years later my own mom.

Was it a delayed phase we all go through? I don't know. What I do know is that I am really open sexually. I try to understand what people are into and why they areinto it. What I believe is that I have thrown away programming against certain things after I have thought about it and saw no harm in doing so.What I am left with is a group of women who I love and care about and want to be happy.

sex is one of those things that make people happy. So the idea of pleasing them,not thinking of myself but of them, turns me on. Just as the idea of pleasing some girls i know turns me on. The only difference is i have stronger ties to those that are related to me.

as for emotional damage, anyone can be emotionally damaged in any kind of relationship. Chances are people who are related aren't likely to think about getting married.Instead it would be more of a "fuck buddy" that you have feelings for. As things are now, 2 siblings are not going to come out and say they were fucking for 2 years and now stopped because she got a boyfriend.

At worst the emotional damage would be the pain we feel when we break up with someone. It wouldnt be traumatic since both people thought about things before touching one another. the 2 adults could discuss things before getting involved to lay down rules so that there is no expectations beyond a temporary thing or "when eveer we are single".

of course people are assuming things end badly. but what if it doesnt? what if pleasing each other physically tightens the bonds between 2 people? its something you shared with the other. it is just as likely to end positive then negative. problem is people will argue otherwise.

the author mentioned several times that there is birth control. birth control normal couples use daily and stake everyone on it working. theres no greater chance of you knocking up a related woman then one that is unrelated. so the chances of it preventing pregnancy is equal.

not everyone is a fucked up, crazy,fat ass old man living in the middle of nowhere. people that are able to think things through rationally, that are not old and crazy and socially accepted can be interested in this subject.

I applaud the candor and seriousness with which you approach the topic of incest in both its aspects of being something that apparently fascinates a broad audience, and one that has distinct implications upon actualy practicing it.

The premise is that sexual contacts within a certain range of co-sanguinity is labeled and stigmatized as incest, but there are many places in this world where if these same rules are applied, entire populations would fall under the category of routine incestuous mating and sexually reproducing.

Places that through the ages have been so remote and cut off from the main population of humanity and that carry populations that probably started out with a very small initial colonization. Sometimes even only by a single family-group. Iceland comes to mind in that respect. It is well known and documented that Icelandic people are so closely related to each other that each and every one has a co-sanguinity that is often closer than that in some within a family that exists in the main human population.

I would certainly hesitate to state that Icelanders seem to be affected by genetic defects in significantly higher numbers that in the world at large.

This also applies to the many other small-population outposts of humanity in Polynesia, Micronesia and even some mainland based communities in Siberia, not to mention sectarian comunities that do not entertain sexual relations outside their own specific community.

It may be that nature has run its course in those places and over time eliminated the recessive traits from the gene-pool, but that also immediately eliminates the argument of hard-wired or inate reasons for the incest taboo.

Personally, I think that as with each and every societal sanction, the incest-taboo is one that is imposed on our societies and and its individual members in context of controling and chanelling the behavior of the individual members into the desired model for our societies.

That being for the most part, the committed relationship within a marriage which in and of itself has more to do with organization of property, control and power.

Form that flow aspects of controling property and power that are formalized in laws, regulations and rules.

Often these have little to do with sexual attraction between close relatives, other than repressing these so that the societal status-quo is not jeopardized.

The goal in that respect is that everyone will continue to trudge along in the traditionally prescribed and easily controlled fashion.

From personal experience, I can say that the incest taboo did certainly not inhibit my sexual attraction towards very close relatives and the mutuality of such by those same very close relatives. I cannot say that the initiation into contacts of a sexual nature between us was specifically mine. It just happened and certainly at the early stages of adolescence, where the lines between natural curiosity, affection and sexual attraction are so blurred that they may lead to pretty far-going experimentation that can and sometimes does extend into adulthood.

It did and does in my case and where it concerns me, without personally felt stigmatization, other than my own realization of a chosen deviation from the surrounding moral code and to certain extent the laws.

In short, going by my own experience, I fail to find within myself, as well as in my sexual partners over the years with whom I have had indepth conversations on this topic, any indication of a natural abhorrence towards entertaining sexual relations that are seen as consentional incest.

These relations are surely different than those that are seen as so-called 'normal' ones, but they are not by any measure more dysfunctional than many of the 'normal' ones that I see in our society at large.

Stronger still, I see much more dysfunction and relational failure outside of what I consider my own circle of partners that I happen to have a harmonious relationship with, which has strengthened me in my inclination not to engage into relationships outside my those with close relatives.

Maybe that is an abnormality in and of itself, but I certainly do not see it as a particularly vexing one. Besides that, it has definitely been one that has led to far less personal complications than the ones that I regularly see around me. Another aspect is that it has effectively eliminated possible exposure to STDs since my partners are of a likewise persuation and we see our relationship as being as exclusive and secure enough to keep it that way.

Do I actively propagate our chosen behavior in that sense? No of course not, because it makes absolutely no sense for any of the involved and frankly speaking, it is no one else's business.

I have long ago made my decision to abstain in the reproductive sense, because I firmly believe that I have many other qualities and ways to contribute to my society without necessarily having own offspring and I have taken measures to ascertain that.

On the other hand, eliminating the reproductive hazards has had a profoundly positive impact on the experienced intimacy with my partners who are likewise inclined.

To each its own.

Emerald

I appreciate the frankness and the candour with which the author has debunked the myths surrounding a sexual relationship amongst close family...considered a taboo, but is existent in the society.

Loving another person, being from the same blood, is no sin.

TM

people are alwyas making random guess that they thought to be true and close to reality,but it turns out the way around.

Convention once formed is hard to destroy, an elephant used to being tied to a tree by an iron chain would not break away from a straw rope that he could easily break.

My sister & I have had a relationship spanning 40 years and are still living together as husband and wife, both of us are divorced & have children wih our exes and my sister had her tubes tied after her 2nd. child was born so we had no fear of pregnancy when we decided to live together.

Almost all gentic deformities occur to parents that are not directly related. The evidence for deformity caused by incest is sketchy at best and usually deals with people in situations were there was very little in the way of prenatal care for the baby. Fact spina bifida is caused by a lack of folic acid in the diet. Various forms of retardation and deformity are caused more often then not by poor diet during pregnancy and eviormental toxins like but not limited to methal mercury in fish, live stock and produce grown in contaminated soil.

The reality is we do not no the extent of incetous babies being produced in this country or even in the world. The odds are that most such pregnancies are hidden from the world. So without data we can make no real anaylisis. It is significant to note that in many countries incest between consentng adults is not illegal. Japan being but one example were they have found no evidence that pregnancies caused by incest produced deformed children at a greater rate than none related parents. Besides when they talk about risks for one thing and another it is in terms of one hundred thousands births . So while having a baby over forty means a higher risk of down syndrome it does not mean that every baby born to a woman over forty will have down syndrome just that a certain percentage out of one hundred thousand births might.

my mom and I drank some alcohol years ago and ended up fucking our brains out the whole night long. It happened only one night but it felt damn good and I got to go back from whence I came. lol..

interesting... :)

Great presentation! If more people were willing to open their eyes this article could be quite a powerful political statement, as it is though, people are completely shut off. I only hope that in time we mature as a society. Thankyou for spreading such a positive message.

... some of the best sex I ever had was with a first cousin. Neither of us thought anything of it since we had never been exposed to the incest taboo. We were young and just lucky not to have a pregnancy occur. I bet a lot more of this goes on than anyone will admit. I am one of the few who can be open about it. Let us face it, the incest taboo is not natural.

Many people are irritated that there is not more analytical proof. At this time in history the taboo of incest probably disrupts the process of collecting good analytical proof. As society becomes more open to incest, similar to the acceptance of lesbians and gays today, then better information can be collected. You have certainly done a good job of critical thinking. And there is a large chance that your thoughts are very close to correct. Unrelated to your essay but certainly within the incest topic. I had sex in every way possible with my cousin in college. We both liked liked it at that point in time. And we both went on to lead nice lives. And we both still talk nicely with each other at family gatherings. No sex for 25 years now and we don't talk about the past, but it is obvious that she has good memories about it like myself.

Some people might be surprised at just how many 'taboo' relationships can be positive & beneficial.

|~|

Morality on the whole is an illusion, defined by the loudest group of people; their loudness makes them also seem like the largest, but this is blatantly untrue. Look at history, & you can see how morality ebbs & flows, changing over time.

|~|

I have seen incestuous relationships work without any unexpected problems. Sure problems are there, but they are the same problems you would find in ANY relationship. None were specific to incestuous relationships.

|~|

In fact, incest is far more common than people think. I can't tell you how many siblings use each other to learn about their bodies. But I've seen that it's a lot.

A thoughtful essay. More people should read this--including a lot of folks here on Lit. who engage in "fetishes" much more bizarre and/or distasteful (to most people) than incest, yet are repulsed by the very word--precisely because of the ingrained biases mentioned in this essay.

The following are actually directed to the previous article that she wrote relating to Realistic Incest.... But is is applicable here too... Wow.. is what I can say - Cause you have done a great job of describing all the primary phases, feelings, and actions which in fact occur, in most of these situations. Obviously Each one is slightly, uniquely different. But the phases Are legit. You are obviously one of the relatively few who have actually experienced/shared this with a close loved one. Due to adoption at early ages, my sister and I were separated. She at 2 months, I was 15 months (only 13 months difference). We 'found' each other at the ages of 16 and 17, with the help of a relative. We Immediately developed an extremely close relationship - catching up on lost years. We were very close in all respects. Including sexual 'tension' throughout the years - but neither of us at the time would 'allow' that to come to pass - at the time. We did not want to risk stepping into that arena not knowing if it would damage/destroy what we had and so valued. But, it was always there. I was most scared, she was of course too - but she was much more open, becoming more so as time when along - until one beautiful spring day she said 'can we talk'. So on the steps of our front porch we sat down. I had No idea about what the upcoming discussion was to be about ...we had many, Many brother/sister 'talks' throughout the years about Anything and Everything in life, in our shared experiences, etc. I thought it was another one of these - which we always enjoyed having. We were close. That was 50 years ago - in our early 20's! I still Remember it as if it was yesterday. She had thought about this 'discussion' for many years. She Knew what she was going to say, and she had a good idea of how. However, knowing, planning, and Saying it was a trip! For her, for me! She started off 'you won't be mad, you will hear me out Before you say anything?" "Remember 'we' have always been able to talk about anything, right?" ...'Yes, and Yes'.. my initial response. Through the years we BOTH had known there was this special tension/potential 'bond' we had Always 'danced' around. ...I listened. Somehow I was not surprised, not shocked. I was only surprised that she/we were finally bringing it out into the open, placing 'the subject' on the table for us both to deal with, to 'give Consideration' to. And it did not surprise me that She had the balls to be the brave one, to say, to Suggest the obvious which had been brewing from the start. We had, were passing through ALL 'the stages' You referenced! Right on target, which only one who had been there, shared this, would know so well. We actually had an easy, frank, 'yes, I felt that too, always knew that too, was just under the surface for Us'. We both felt the same about what we 'might' be about ready to actually Do. We knew that there were risks, most importantly about how it might effect our near term and long term future relationship, and of course the need to Always keep it a Secret that only we could/would share forever ...but mostly we did not want to damage what we already had. We had always been on the same page about everything (Truly almost as if we had been Raised Together, only closer). Once we shared This in the open, we felt it would only bring us even closer. Btw - we both were each already in a marriage with others. ...My wife had Always been jealous of Us, the bond we had - she didn't ever know how close a bond, Her husband was Never jealous, although he too saw the special bond. He was a great guy, but he was not much of a communicator - so "I" helped take part of that pressure off of him because he knew that my sister could rely upon having me to 'go to' for 'discussions' of life, including about their own relationship. ..back to the history/story. After probably at least a couple hours of discussion, probably more, we ended our mutual sharing, our thoughts, our deep considerations that we each had to process. "we Need to give each other 24 hours, over night to each of us fully Think about This Step"... and we did. The next morning after my BIL left for work - he worked at job 40 miles away, so he would not be coming back and surprising us, we met up finally in their bedroom, large king sized bed. She was laying in the bed naked as a jaybird, I came from upstairs in my underwear boxer shorts. She took one look at me, and I quote, "Take Those OFF!" I had been visiting/living with them during the previous month while I was home from college, and separated from my wife due to marital problems. Sooo, I guess we were now at stage 3 1/2 - 4 at that point. With no regrets. Things progressed from there... You/We have both driven 'that road'. The stages are as they are. If you have not actually Been that road yourself then you have no real basis to criticize the descriptions/stages/or actual feelings/experiences. I enjoyed very much your narrative of typical realities. Thank you.. Shared love...