All Comments on 'Ardmore Pt. 03'

Though I sometimes find the backstory tedious, I enjoyed the second and third parts of your story very much.

Boyd

I don't know where you are going with this story, but it seems as if Dave is kind of arrogant, smug,morally superior and judgemental. His comments about Ari were intolerant to say the least. Not paying attention, sort of daydreaming just before Cassie's attack. His guilt alone should have made him keep that money. Is that attitude that he shows in this chapter going to influence his decision in the final chapter? Still an above average story...Thanks much

So with the back story there is no way she would cary on a sexual relationship behind his back. If she did it would compound it that much more. Great story, hope it ties up as well as the lead into it. Also hope it comes soon. Thanks for your effort. You are really a good writer!

The goofs in the prose are unfortunate and distracting. It's too bad your editor didn't catch them because they do hurt the quality of the work. The "Over the moths" blunder jarred me with the image of killer moths from a bad horror film to which I cackled merrily. Still, the storytelling is good. I look forward to the conclusion.

Overall a very nice read. It is hard to rate with the 5

point system because this story probably deserves something

in the low 4 range but is still a very enjoyable tale. Plus I feel grateful that the author is willing to take the time to write tales that provide me with so much entertainment.

Salamis, this story and the care that you have taken in crafting the back story have been excellent. I feel like I've really gotten to know your characters. <p>

One thing that I find really ironic is how you have turned many of the lit cliche's on its head. I still don't know where you are ultimately headed in this story, but, you have created a set up where the readers will have difficulty in accepting the fact that Adrienne could be unfaithful. <p>

I can't think of the number of times that I have read a story and found a wife portrayed as hideously self centered or acting in an unforgiveable fashion. In many of those stories, particularly those where reconciliation is a possibility, I have seen the readers argue passionately over whether the author had dug to deep a hole for the wife to overcome. <p>

In this case, you have dug the opposite hole. Many readers will find it hard to believe that Adrienne could be unfaithful at this point which (potentially) reduces the tension of the last chapter as we all wait to see what explanation you come up with. <p>

Oh well, I can't wait to see where you bring it. This has been a story that has been well worth the time to read and understand.

We've seen a lot of their younger life, but there have been 20 years of which we've seen little.

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We have seen her go behind his back and keep secrets so it isn't a stretch to imagine she has done it again. We saw (in pt 1) that she is willing to lie to carry out her deception.

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I don't know what she is capable of. I'm sure she'll have an explanation, but I don't know that she's earned our (the readers) trust.

What an example of character development! I really like this story so far and look forward to the next chapter. Where is it headed? I leave that to the author, he has shown great ability in the past and I see no reason to change that opinion.

After all this background, I will be surprised with anything but a happy ending. This has been a pleasant read. Thanks for the time and effort.

For the central event in part 1. I guess Wes has returned.

going to be much longer. The idea that it has to end in the

installment leaves me sad!

I have to agree, that if this gal had caught some sort of

sexual hang up then the world has come to the end... There

has to be an explanation. I am sure that David feels the same way. Someone characterized him as arrogant, but if he wasn't he would not survive among so many strong women. Also, being a vice-principal requires self-confidence.

Wonderful work. When are you going professional?

I have to agree with Anonymous Critic; Frankly I an stunned

by CCM's assertion that this chpater WEAKENS the case the wife could be a cheater.

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What story was He reading...?!?!?

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whle the background is great it clearly proves she is VERY capable of cheating.

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On with the story already...

and there is very little of it we can yet know whether to treat as important - or not.<BR>

The author started a story in Ch1 with no background to the characters, now we've had two chapters of <I>background</I>. We know it will end with the next chapter, so hopefully, at long last, we will return to the core story - or is that wishful thinking?<BR>

I agree with Anon Critic - even with all we have been fed, there is still a gap of around 20 years, and Addy could have changed a lot in that time - let's face it, she has changed enough lie to her husband about what she was doing, where she was going, and who she was with.<BR>

No matter how 'pure' her motivation, she has delivered a near fatal wound to her marriage.<BR>

I fully realise Salamis may well have an 'everything is rosy' ending, but in real life he could never go any way near trusting her again after this episode of running off with 'flossy'.<BR>

The camping trip was obviously completely planned - how else the photos by flossy's mum? Nope, she has no credibility left to claim to be a faithful wife whether she had any affair or not. If she was not up to something she knew hubby would not approve of, she would have told him about it. The rule about 'would I do this if he was watching' holds true here - she obviously would not, so she should not!<BR>

No matter what plausible story Addy comes up with, or how many others she can get to back her up, David can NEVER look at her with the same trust and love he had for her before she so wilfully lied to him and the family.

<p>I read things like this for the pleasure of the written word. If Salamis wants to write the phone book, I'm in. Ardmore has been an enjoyable story so far.</P>

<p>As for Harry's assertion that the story shows that the wife was very capable of cheating. Consider the source. If it smells like shit, it is shit, er Harry.</p>

<p>It looks to me that Salamis has painted Adrienne as an extremely admirable woman devoted to her husband and if anything erring on the side of too much compassion. How does that translate into her being very likely to become a cheater? Harry probably thinks that the Virgin Mary was really a cheating slut. If Harry were Joseph, he would have thrown her the hell out.</p>

asshole

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I did not make the point that the wife COULD be a cheater first .

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a Poster called Anonymous Critic did... If yor are going to troll me you stupid little bastard at least learn to read

the story. Lit comes across as a girl/woman who will do whatever she thinks is right to get what she wants. She involved Ari to make him jealous and when it didnt at least to her, she kept right on with a very bad charade that ruined a family. She went out and talked to various girls he had worked without his knowledge. She demanded and got others to concede to her will and wishes. One might say she is a very good manipulator especially of her husband. So if we ask is she to in love to cheat on him, you might as well ask if she thought it would do what she wanted would she cheat as a means to an end? And hell yes she would. I dont really think the main character here comes across ao to arrogant, just a bit puffed up, and a large bit to self indulgent and stupid. Put another way this guy is a compulsive obcessive. Can he forgive his wife from lying to him, what was it he said to Lit about the lies concerning Ari, and then again when the shit hit the fan. His wife if you will remember not only lied to him, but in so doing completely disrespected him and deceived him on purpose. Her makeup is, I can do anything I want as long as it achieves my goals. His makeup is, faithful, loyal, loving, and complete truth with each other. To keep her even if she hasnt committed adultry per se, he will have to break his own code of conduct, and the strengths and beliefs that composed his side of their marriage. Were she my wife, once she was stable the divorce process would have already begun. Reconciliation is something done by people coming from two different aspects of the same problem. This two's problems arent even in the same universe. I will say over the years, and there are many of them, I have never seen a reconciled marriage late existed after a few years. All they do is delay the inevitable by counseling and reconciliation. As an aside did you ever notice it is always the innocent party that has to make the concessions, never the guilty party? Not I am guilty leave me, but it didnt affect you, it was just sex, get over it.

Can't wait for Pt. 04. What a detour - driver / bodyguard for dancers! Adrienne seems to be about as straight-up as a female can be, so I'm hoping there's a logical explanation for the camping trip.

In an earlier comment, I made the point that I thought that Salamis was portraying Adrienne as a woman who the reader would find difficult to see as a cheater, at least not a cheater who would enter into a full blown love affair with a lesbian lover. That is not to say that it cannot be done, it's just that the entire tone of the story portrays Adrienne as empathic and so totally devoted to David and her family that I can't see her running the risk of ruining everything by carrying on a full blown love affair with a close friend. An affair that would run a high risk of discovery.<p>

From the back story, it is evident that Adrienne has been in love with David since, at least, the time he "saved" her on Halloween. She is also portrayed as being fiercely loyal to her friends and committed to helping abused women from an early age. Also, Salamis made a point of talking about the pre marriage counseling where they fully discussed what marriage means to both of them. In short, this is a woman who would have a lot to lose in an affair and who would have ample real world examples of the potential consequences. <p>

Further, the situation that is presented in the first chapter is potentially one of the most dire for a marriage. If there was cheating going on, we are not talking about some casual sex or a brief fling. It would be a full blown "love affair" between Jane and Adrienne. In short, not just a physical relationship, but an emotional one as well.I might be wrong, but I think that it would be far harder for a "loving" wife to hide an emotional connection when the three parties are in frequent contact. <p>

If there is an affair between Jane and Adrienne, then the only possible conclusion is that David is a clueless bastard. At no point in the first chapter does David (or any of Adrienne's family) see any clues that Jane and Adrienne were lovers, even in hindsight. This scenario is the reason I find it difficult to see Adrienne as a cheater.<p>

From both her personal and professional life, Adrienne has full (and practical)knowledge of the disastrous possible consequences of an affair. To all apparent indications she is deeply in love with her husband, devoted to her family and very happy with her life. Frankly, she just doesn't fit the profile of a woman who could blithely carry on an extended love affair. It just doesn't fit her portrayal as a smart and caring person.<p>

The story does strongly hint at an emotional connection between Jane and Adrienne, but a logical assuption can be made that it was platonic. The only possible hint of a physical relationship was the killer's confession that he had seen them nude and making out and that was why he shot them. But, this statement seems to be at odd with the facts that Adrienne was dressed when she wandered on to the campsite. <p>

In chapter 1, Salamis related how Jane has moved to Harrisburg after ending a romance with someone who was married. Adrienne helps Jane through that trauma by acting as her counselor and mentor. While its possible that Jane transferred her feelings to Adrienne, Salamis provides no clues that David ever saw any jealousy or competition from Jane even though she was a frequent guest and friendly to David.<p>

I think that a far more suportable case could be made for the idea that the purpose of the camping trip was for Adrienne to continue her role in providing emotional support and couseling for Jane. As one possible explanation, suppose that this trip coincides with the timing of Jane's breakup with her married lover. Jane and Adrienne were not making out, Jane was crying over her lost love and Adrienne was merely holding her and comforting her. Killer saw them, assumed that they were lovers and tried to kill them and later embellished his story to support his skewed world view.<p>

Some other commentors have pointed out the whole Ari situation and suggested that it indicates that Adrienne can manipulate David. But, this argument fails to consider what happened. Adrienne helped her friend Ari deceive his parents. As a consequence, she ended up in the middle getting villified from all sides. She was the one that got hurt and blamed herself (A similarity to her comment in Chapter 1 that she was at fault for Jane's death?). She also learned first hand how David would respond to that type of deception and machination as it came close to ruining their relationship before it started.<p>

But, I can see the Ari affair as playing a big part in the story. It certainly might have played a role in her hiding Jane's sexual orientation from David. David's comments about Ari could have convinced Adrienne that David would noty approve of Jane being a Lesbian. In particular, the knowledge that Jane was gay might have been enough for David to disprove of the close friendship between Jane and Adrienne. That potential for conflict could be the reason why Adrienne didn't tell David why she was getting together with Jane.<p>

In sum, when I view this story as a whole, I see multiple reasons why Adrienne should not be seen as a cheater.

Even from a purely pragmatic risk/reward viewpoint, no affair would be worth the possible price if it got exposed.

The story is great and reading some of the comments has also been interesting. I must say “capecodmercury” has made some very valid points and so has “AnonymousCritic” in his/her assertion. I look forward to finding out who is right.<P>I also am sorry this story is coming to an end, though it has been done so well. Thank you for such good entertainment and the obvious hard work!<P>PT

CCM -- what a great post and well reasoned and thought out post!! There are some points where I think you make HUGE leaps and I think you make then because you have a clear bias towards reconcilation--sometimes taking things to the extreme.

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Ok with regard to Your essay/long post. The flaw in it is the TIMELINE... chapter 1 occurs when they have been married 20+ years (judging from the age of the kids). I am not sure how Adrienne reaction to David from that Halloween event is relvant to 2007...

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Yes at the time they got Married she comes across as warm loving and devoted woman....

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So fooking what? <b>Isnt that the case with almost everyone who gets married!?</b>... excluding of course JPB stories. By your reasoning NO one should be cheating!!!

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SECOND at the end of Chapter 3 we dont know what is going on inside Adrienne's mind at all. This story is told ONLY from his -- the husband 's point of view.

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Are you certain that Adrienne did not change between the time she got married to when this camping incident occurred.?

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THIRD... we agrees about the character flaw in Adrienne with regard to her lying about her suppose boyfriend that was Gay... and I will conceed that she learned her lesson... from back then.

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but THAT was 20+ years ago... it IS possible that the same character flaw has come to the surface again.

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LASTLY... I want to make one thing clear. After Your intial Post it was <b>Anonymous Critic </b> who questioned your understanding of this story... then <b>Kanga</b>

... then some other Anonymous poster. ALL I said was that the wife <b>COULD </b> be a cheater.

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I did NOT say the wife HAD to be a cheater nor did I hint in anyway that it was "time to kick her to the curb". The poster -- er make that douch bag-- that goes by the name TheBullet-- went out of his way to atack ONLY my post which was very reasonable and ignored the 3 other posters who offered much harsher reaction to your post than I did.

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what do you call Someone that wont go after well respected posters such <b>anonymous Critic </b> and >b> Kanga </b>? A COWARD.

My posted opinion had nothing whatever to with a post by anyone else - it's my opinion and not flavoured by any other.<BR>

When I am answering someone else's post I name them - as I have named you here.<BR>

So, use your own arguments to carry on with Bullet or CCM, and don't try to drag me in.<BR>

<B>Capecodmercury</B> Can your 'innocent flower' version of Addy answer this part of my post???<BR>

<I>The camping trip was obviously completely planned - how else the photos by Jane's mum? Nope, she has no credibility left to claim to be a faithful wife whether she had any affair or not. If she was not up to something she knew hubby would not approve of, she would have told him about it. The rule about 'would I do this if he was watching' holds true here - she obviously would not, so she should not!<BR>

No matter what plausible story Addy comes up with, or how many others she can get to back her up, David can NEVER look at her with the same trust and love he had for her before she so wilfully lied to him and the family.</I><BR>

What Salamis described in Ch1 tells us that Addy put whatever she was doing with Jane above her family and her marriage. What husband wants a woman like that?<BR>

It is not necessary to 'cheat' to wreck a marriage, I know of many marriages which have ended from various causes other than cheating.

I usually try not to get into debates over an interpretation of a story, particularly one that is not finished since we will all see the writer's resolution soon. But, in this case, I would like to respond to Kanga's question.<p>

First, I'm not saying that Salamis will not end up having Adrienne having an affair with Jane. I was just stating my opinion that it doesn't fit my reaction to the character. But, I've been wrong before. <p>

In terms of the pre planning of the camping trip, Kanga is right that this is a deliberate and obvious lie that could end up hurting the marriage by eroding trust. This is an issue that I hope will be addressed and resolved both in the story and presumably in the marriage.<p>

But, I don't agree that the pre planning of the camping trip necessarily equates to a conclusion that Adrienne was having an affair with Jane. It's not too difficult to come up with a plausible rationale that does not involve cheating and which would allow Adrienne to justify in her mind lying to her family. In fact, I thought that I had at least intimated one possible justification in my post. <p>

If Adrienne was using this trip to help "console/counsel" Jane over the end of her romance, this would explain the reason why it was a pre planned trip. As to why she would lie, one possible solution could be that telling David where and why she was going would raise issues and lead to a discussion that would have ramifications beyond Jane/Adrienne/David. For example, what if the love affair was with the wife of a co worker or close friend of David & Adrienne's? Adrienne may be having her own conflicts between a promise to Jane not to tell David about her romance and her desire to be open to David about what she is doing. She might have painted herself into a corner she cannot get out of. (To be honest, one reason that this rationale jumped out at me is that I am working on a story that addresses a very similar type of conflict)<p>

On the time line issue that Harry raised, I did consider this point when I made my earlier post. In the end, my reasoning was persuaded by two factors: What I know of the writer and what I know about the length of the story.<p>

I don't think that there would be a lot of debate over the fact that Salamis is a very good writer both in terms of style and technical skills. I have to presume that he has a valid reason why he would spend over 11 Lit pages of the story telling a back story from 20 years ago. The only reason I can come up with is that he is trying to establish the moral character of Adrienne and David. <p>

Coupled with this is the fact that we know that this is a four part story. That is going to leave one chapter to resolve the mystery of the camping trip and to lay out the future consequences. <p>

Harry is certainly correct that behaviors can change drastically over time. But, in my opinion, if Salamis were going to rely on a change in her behavior, he would devote a good portion of the story towards relating those changes. I would expect those changes to be developed in the story line with the same degree of care as the last two chapters. If this story still had 4-5 chapters to go, my opinion of Adrienne would still be up in the air as I waited for Salamis to tell the rest of the back story. But, with only one chapter left, I have made the assumption that there have not been major changes in Adrienne's behavior. This assumption could be wrong, but it is the one that I made.<p>

That gets me back to the point I made in my original post. With the way this story has developed, I find it difficult to see Adrienne as getting into a full blown love affair with Jane. It just doesn't seem to fit the work up. And to me, that reduces the dramatic tension.

Based on my reading of the three chapters, I don't think Adrienne would be the kind of woman that would cheat on her husband, much less a late discovery of bissexuality that would be necessary to make the first chapter information coherent.

First, the background story on the second and third chapter show a long, growing relationship that has been cultivated since she was very young, and according to her husbands view, very satisfactory sexual and emotional up to these days. We see no signs of neglect, distention or wild behavior changes.

Second, the only indications of an improper sexual relation come from a confessed killer(which does not makes any sense, since hate crimes tend to have even higher penalties applied - A lawyer might have a strategy to use that, if the jurors were conservative people, but hardly the killer's own idea of a defense) and a totally unexplained lie(the trip).

And third, as it seems, Lit and David have lived a very full marriage, and gone through some pretty rough situations regarding her health, which means it would be extremely unlikely such companionship would easily degrade into a cheating wife/dumb husband situation...

Given Adrienne background, her greatest flaw seems to be that the compassion/empathy she feels for people she works and lives with can and will push her to take risks for them. She knows that lies are extremely dangerous, given her previous experience with Ari(which was extremely harsh on her, since she was NOT using Ari. He knew, approved and wanted the lie to help his own position) but she also blames herself for not doing enough to help other people that are close to her. If her friend Jane needed help, she would really do whatever she could to help her. Even lie to her husband, if the lie had no ill intentions towards him or their marriage.

Lying is certainly not the basis of a good relation, but neither are people 100% honest about everything all the time. Lit would have lied to protect her husband, to shield him from possible danger, as well as to be able to do something he might think too dangerous to her, and therefore prevent her from doing it.(if helping Jane was somehow dangerous, she could have kept the info from her husband just to be able to do it)

It is also possible that the background story also has ties to what happened at the camping trip, so perhaps we should give Salamis the space he needs to deal with his characters the way he planned, instead of pre-judging if this or that character should or should not be forgiven, or what has happened without really having any clue about what has passed.

All I know is that if my wife told me she was going to a conference and then got shot at a camp ground a hundred miles away, I would have some serious problems with that shit. Come on you numb nuts. If one lies about one thing.....who knows what they will lie about.

Good writing but way overboard on the background. I'll be glad when part 4 comes just to get this over with.

The last two chapters have built the framework for a rational explanation for Lit's actions. First, David's reaction to the fact that Ari is gay may explain why she did not want to tell him about her meeting in the woods with a gay co-worker. Her nurturing to a fault behavior also would explain why she agreed to meet her friend in the first place. What is puzzling is why meet someone in as intimate place as a camping tent? How about a hotel room or a cabin in the woods if she must meet her friend? One explanation is that the shooter mistook Lit's comforting her friend as a sexual act. One problem is even if Lit had the motives of a saint how can she prove that all she was doing was to help a distraught friend? Even with the last two chapters if Lit was innocent of cheating she was really stupid to put herself in that situation. She lied to David and she did not trust him. Sometimes that is enough to end a marriage.

The debate which your narrative has created is a testimony to the quality of your writing: engaging and intelligent. I agree with Kanga that no matter what the background and no matter what has happened - secrets of this magnitude in marriage (it goes way beyond the trip, to the hiding of the fact that her friend was gay) could be detrimental to most marriages on account of betraying the trust; lying by omission and commission; exposing the whole family to grave harm (by exposing herself to danger without the consent of the spouse). Any portrayal which will settle on less than gravely bruised relations to be mended at the end will be IMO incredible.

My quibble with Salamis is on the extra weight in the narrative. Are all the details in the ‘middle chapters’ necessary to establish what you need reg. the Adrienne? IMO there are more than few portions which could have been trimmed with no harm to any of your main characters. It would have been a different matter if you have not established the main conflict of the story from the get go then put it on ice (except in our minds). In short - by making this initial decision you colored the rest of the tale with the big question (the big elephant) and IMO every thing should have been edited in or out based on that intro. All that said with respect to your writing prowess, and thanks again for the continuous pleasure of the read!

a nice story, but rather long and boring

But, now let's revert to the start of the story and find out what happens in this really good story. I hope that it ends well since I have become somewhat of a romantic in my old age.

Once again, high quality writing, but the background doesn't include any connections to the present to keep the reader engaged. I'm sure the last chapter will draw upon this background info, but there should be some hooks along the way.

Five stars for the writing.

5 stars for content, even if it so far from the beginning. everyone in the world has a family to some extent, does the author find it necessary to pretend the reader needs more of daily bull shit that every family goes through? it was nicely done, but too far from the beginning.

...else has said. Pt's 2 and 3 add very little to a SHORT STORY...

That said, the main story is quite engaging.. let's get back to it, shall we?

...aaa-aand then come Chapters 2 and 3, and the story falls flat on its face. It is rather a stupid blunder of the author's not to include the continuing narrative from the present crisis of Jane's murder and Adrienne's shooting and hospitalization. And while I have a feeling I know where this is going, vis-a-vis the true identities and import of their attackers, I've barely been able to follow the last two chapters, and that's only because I've already committed myself to the narrative as a whole. Don't misunderstand my dissatisfaction with the present structure, as the writing is not too bad. Good dialogue sequences, and things are moved along, albeit at a near-snail's pace. Pt. 4 better wrap this thing up in a nice little bow.

(Not really expecting that. I expect that the author has abandoned the story, and absconded).

Beautifully written.

"Adrienne was learning a hard lesson on the limits of her own compassion, and the guarantee of unintended consequences."

Hmmmm....... Now where have I heard that phrase before?

Another chapter, six pages long, that adds absolutely nothing to the plot of the story. It’s nothing but background info. NOTHING pertinent to what happened to the two women who were shot. This author really knows how to waste our time. One star.

other than showing us how "sensitive" and progressive the author is...and that he doesn't understand plotting. This digression is like senile reminiscence.

I’m enjoying your story. This is actually the second time I’ve read it. The backstory is complex and convoluted as well as being one of the most entertaining I’ve read. I do have a question about Dave’s attitude regarding Ari’s homosexuality and Adrienne’s collusion with Ari in keeping the secret. Dave thinks to himself: “It really should not have been any of my business except that they made it mine by lying to me.” This is just wrongheaded on Dave’s part. Is he even listening to himself? If it’s none of his business then it’s none of his business. Adrienne and Ari are friends. Adrienne and Dave are just friends. Why do Adrienne and Ari owe Dave ANY explanation of Ari’s sexuality? Remember: “It’s none of his (my) business.” If there is a lie it’s a lie of omission and constructed in self preservation for Ari. What business is it of Dave’s whether Ari comes out of the closet or not? Dave’s insistence that Adrienne also lied is too hidebound and spartan in its inflexibility. It ought to be obvious to him why they kept a secret in this situation. Why does Dave behave as if he has an interest in this pact of silence? He doesn’t really have a dog in this fight- it’s none of his business and he betrays a remarkable lack of sensitivity and compassion in failing to understand that.

Loved the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic analogy.

These rabbit holes are coming out in China!

Still building

4/5

⭐

Soooooo long and filled with unnecessary information. Yawn!

I like it but i assume the writer is a female Just too many sort of mills and boon traits about the writing BUT overall a good read

I don’t understand how anyone thinks this is a good story