All Comments on 'Forgiveness'

A well done, thoughtful discussion. *Never* grant forgiveness - no. *Always* grant forgiveness - again no. I have to lump myself in the moderate group also.

While tending to come down on the side of 'cheaters cheat and will continue to do so' there are extenuating circumstances in some cases. As you said "it depends."

I am more inclined to forgive a truly remorseful spouse vs. one who continues to deny, obfuscate, and lie or who will continue their actions as long as their partner remains in the dark.

Well thought out Patricia. But then I expect that from you!

fregen

In some case the man, he does become the cock type person, may for give the woman and may not do anything for spite. In many case in these stories, it is the other way around. The wife after catching the husband, seeks revenge, many times with vengeance. He could be strong. but she brings him down some times by giving her body to her co-workers, his friends and many time humiliating. At the same time stating that she still love him. Other time she just gets mean by getting group of men to fuck in front of her husband and in some cases having the husband suck their dicks, suck their cum and get fuck in the ass. Still the wife says she still love him and want to stay married to him. By time the husband should have had some kind of weapon to re-arrange her head and body. NJow that is the kind of forgiveness that should show her that he cares.

Patricia;

As usual you hit all the right points. I find myself pretty much aligned with your way of thinking. We have been over this before and agree more often than not.

Keep up the great work.

George

a sharp knife cuts deeper. an excellent acticle. to the point. well thought out. Patricia, you are the envy of my possibly misguided writing afforts.

i know what porn is when i see it. or art now add cheating to that list. how long may a cheatee lick the woulds before takeing some type of action. how severe the revenge (is revenge needed? is simply living a good life a good revenge? does your pain have to match my pain?

and what of the conspiricy of the loved one and assorted friends to entice a person into a situation that is not discused in advance because the loved one is sure that it is just what is needed to add spice.

damn you! you have clawed your way into my mind and forced me to do a lot of thinking AGAIN. i love that.

i like happy endings, but i find myslef thinking a lot more about the endinds that are not so happy.

i find that some your writings are still in my mind for days (months)later. i love that.

and by the way i appreciated your silence on my error. not acceptance just silence. i know you read it. or was that just you way of telling me how bad i was. LOL

No matter how prepared I may be to read your work posted here each time is a joy and a delight.

Succinct, well thought out and focused.

I agree with H2Owader, hard to come close to the mistress of words.

Somehow, I was not logged in, so I will sign

Dotti

Very Informative Patricia. Your insight has given me a picture of various views expressed on this site and others.

I read the comments too on most all stories. The consensus seems to be that most fall into the "moderate" category. That is to say, the circumstances of the affair and the effects it has on the family or families of the cheaters if both are married.

I guess I fall into the category that I can forgive just about any transgression save that of a woman or a man for that manner impregnating the spouse of another and then the planned deceiving of the other partner in order to make the innocent partner raise and support the child.

The woman who has unprotected sex with another partner should weigh whether or not she carries that child to term knowing full well that the child could be the product of her infidelity. in this case the woman should not risk that this deceptive behavior will force a lifetime of servitude of her husband who was totally innocent.

In other words her infidelity ultimately costs her husband 3/4ths of a million dollars or more, depending on the college the offspring attends and what kind of wedding they have if a girl. lol

Well done Patricia, you have raised a controversy and thought provoking article on an otherwise dreary Wednesday morning in the midwest.

Gary

This subject is an explosive one here on Lit. All you have to do is go to the loving wives category and read the comments left on any cheating story. There seems to be a great divide in this category. It looks like there needs to be a different category for the Slut/Whore wives with wimp husbands who like to eat cuckold creampies, and those stories that are real life and are about loving wives. Albeit if they cheated or not with the real consequences that follow. As well as loving stories,adventures about a loving man & wife union. If Lit. would make a new category we would all be better off and the scores on the stories would be better in their perspective categories. I know when I read those wimp husbands stories with their backstabbing, lieing, betraying wives, that have no remorse and expect their husbands to go along with it because they are such wimps will draw my ire every time! I will leave a nasty note and give it a low score. This ideology is not real life, and with no consequences. I like it to be real with real emotions. As I read these stories I can often inject myself int the male character role because I can see myself in these roles if it happened to me. It makes the story that much more emotional. I evaluate these stories and know when I would forgive and when I wouldn't. You also have to allow for how many years invested in the relationship to be a factor on decision. Depending on what kind of cheating and how long it was going on. Also a factor is how remorsefull the partner is and what they are willing to do to get that most valuable commodity back "trust". Since this is what all relationships are based upon. But in no way would I ever "wimp" out on such devastating betrayl. Never! It will be dealt with in a real and harsh manner. If you don't the door will be open for them to do it again! No matter how much they say they love you! For if they loved you it would have never happened in the first place or put themselves in the position for it to happen. If you got a problem open up your mouth and say something! No communication is why most of these situations happen in the first place. Well I could go on! But I will leave it here.

Thanks for writing Patricia51

Sexmate

that we discuss and write about in Literotica. There are almost as many opinions as situations. You have given us food for thought. These are all things an author must consider when writing a 'Loving Wife' story, or any story that deals with relationships. Many people must face these decisions in their lives and must decide for themselves. It is always emotional and never easy. Thanks for the thoughts!

In a long career in computers and a not as long career at law, the correct answer to most questions was, "It depends." There's always another side. There is always a cost to making a choice of one thing over another. Here too.

It is not always a physical act. In my mind, there is an offense of Attempted Adultery similar to Attempted Murder. In Torn, she would have gone through with it but for the refusal on the part of the other party. The damage is the same as if she went through with it. Is there less responsibility because the gun jammed when you pulled the trigger aiming at someone's head?

I'm in the middle group, but there is a big problem that always needs to be overcome, the threshold problem. The cheater has demonstrated that the emotional well being of their partner is not important to them. There is always the possibility of getting caught and what will that do to your partner? The implied answer to this question is: don't care. It may be couched in, "I didn't think about it," but that is really the same as, "I didn't care." That's a huge obstacle to overcome before you can get into the other factors on which "it depends." How do you start to build a stable, trusting relationship with someone who has told you they don't care what happens to you emotionally? Well, they may care, but it's back burner to things that are really important to them in their life. How do they convince you that you're being moved to the top of the list?

That becomes a filter in evaluating what they say. "I didn't mean, I'll never, I just," are all filtered through the unimportance of your emotional well being. You need to be convince that there is emotional devestation of the cheater at what (s)he has done to you. If they don't feel that as a result of not only the pain they have caused, but the knowledge they can't ever fix it, there is a pretty good chance the behavior will be repeated. The couple may move past it, but there will always be a seed of doubt. The relationship will never be the same. It may be better in many ways if they can work through the problems that led them to this juncture, but human nature is such that the victim will always have a feeling that it could happen again if they are not worthy, and all of us already have feelings of unworthiness. We deal with them. We move on in spite of them. They are questions of whether we are worthy. But in this situation you have the notion that the spouse may once again prove that you are right by cheating again.

These are things to which we will never find absolute answers. Many situations can only be understood in hindsight, if then. WWII taught us not to wait to take action even though we were not involved. Vietnam told us not to mess where we were not involved. Which of the contradictory teachings do you apply when there is a genocide in Rwanda? Isn't it even more difficult if you have the emotional intensity of having lost someone in one of those conflicts?

Even if you could come up with a rule, and recognize the correct time to apply it, there would inevitably be exceptions.

I'm happy I could supply the lack of an answer as well as anyone else.

Damn thing won't let me log in under my id.

I like some others on here have said, grade on what my own preferences are. maybe that is wrong, maybe not. It could be that as someone said we need other categories. I myself hate wimp hubby story , where the hubby blindly does whatever to keep the wife. I like stories that to me represent real emotions and reactions to the situation ,as I see it. Which may not be as others see the same scenerio. I am rather harsh in my views as with me it depends also, but there would have to be a very good reason and I would have to get revenge in some form or other.Be it me fucking around or beating the piss out of the trangresser. Plus the wife would feel the displeasure for a long time to come, and trust would have to be built back up , and that don't mean her fucking around more to get back at me for fucking around to get back at her.Plus I would have to see a Doctor's report that said she was safe for me to touch again ,she might lol also but hey thats my price.Pat 51 I generally read your stories as you are a very good writer and often very thought provoking. Don't mean i agree with all your endings,and I do apologize to you if maybe some of my comments can get quite bad at times. I just feed off my emotions and my beliefs. But again you are a great writer so don't take all comments personal as maybe ,just maybe others do the same, and just react to the story. Anyway please continue as you are one of the better authors on here roadbird

Wonderful discussion.

I am a moderate and agree with many of your points. Forgiveness depends on many circumstances of the cheating and the relationship. I think its more probable to forgive a loving spouse of many years for a misstep then it is very early in a marriage.

For me the term of the affair would be key. I think I could forgive that momentary mistake that might happen on a trip or party. What I could never forgive is a long term affair where instead of one night of deception it was months of lies.

I also found it nice to hear you mention that open couples can also cheat. Just because a couple had a little sexual adventure with another couple of a close friend once or twice doesnt give either partner the license to screw around with co workers.

I also agree that cheating can also be done with someone of the same sex. If a woman has sex with another woman behind her husbands back its cheating.

Jackie

I would disagree to some extent about the denial of sex thing, in that this is a clear-cut case in itself of breaking a trust and neglecting a partner, but I can understand that it is less serious to some than to others by itself. In general, though, a solid essay.

Patricia,

I find your stories to be some of the very best on this site, because you have the awareness to explore the nuances of a situation. This particular essay explains exactly why you are so good. It is in the gray areas that good stories are written, the black and white stories, are not near as interesting as those that consider that human beings react differently to very slightly different situations.

In one of your stories you actually changed the story to have Tom file for divorce rather than the wife he caught cheating. It completely changed the texture of that story. I have often wondered how different the "same" story would be with these very slight differences explored by a gifted writer such as yourself. In fact the story you wrote about the woman realizing she was gay and trying to tell her H, has been explored in this manner.

My feeling is that sensitivity to the nuances of life, make for good writing and I find your exploration of the concept of forgiveness in light of an affair a very interesting one.

Keep writing, you have a lot of good ideas.

You did leave one factor out I consider basic. That is INTENT.

If the partner (let's make it female) agrees to help the handsome stranger to his car. He is using a cane and has trouble on the soft sand of Sammamish State Park. She had no intent to do anything except help a nice, pleasant young man.

This is an actual situation. It could have been seduction, it fact it was Ted Bundy picking up one of his victims. The woman can't be faulted for anything but poor judgement. No intent there. If it had gotten her screwed, blued and tattooed, warned that her mother would be raped, sodomized and tortured if she told anyone I doubt she should be convicted if she kept quiet. there was no intent.

Without intent I can't see culpability. With intent, that's something else again. The gal who goes back of the house to give the next door neighboer a hot smooch at the neighborhood party has intent and to my mind is cheating. If it wasn't giving her a special thrill from the naughtiness she wouldn't do it that way. She, or he, is guilty of minor cheating at the least. A judge would have to consider all the factors to decide. But it was cheating.

Whether the cheater is drawn an quartered or given a lecture depends on too many variables to discuss here. That's what your stories, Harddaysknight, and all the gang includint me are all about Patti.

First of all I admire your work and particularily, like this thought, those that provoke considerations.

Having said that, with regard to this effort have you had the misfortune of experiencing spousal cheating? Divorce? I have and while it is a complex issue, it is also basically and alarmingly simple if you can step outside the emotions serounding it.

Beforehand, your viewpoint was from an intelligent woman's perspective. And mind and experience. You referenced many stories, so I suspect you have no personal experience and that speaks well of you and yours. I am an older male with an unfortunate experience, also fairly inteligent and introspective (as I suspect you are). 20 years hindsight also allows me to further understand the why and how to consider the possible subsequent responses.

The "Why"! Basically, many married people don't understand or forget the marriage contract is in fact as binding as a business one. Each party agreed to certain specific conditions. Paramount were to honor, respect and take care of each other not for an uncertain period of time but forever. Quite clear aren't they. But human as we are, they become blurred and fuzzy as life pulls us through each day, week, month and years of achievement and difficulties. And there's the rub.

We are all perfect beings when first married, from each others viewpoint and if there was a rough edge, we knew that we could change the person into our required mold of need. But time and circustance reveals all the worts and weaknesses as well as the strengths. Communication, forgiveness, hard work and compromise as well as self modification are as critical to marital survival as they are in business. Lets face it, marriage is really a business that must be worked upon daily to survive in todays complex world.

What I'm getting at is that very few spouses start off with the intention to cheat but when the respect of self diminishes or a weak spouse won't work into the known growth processes of married life problems can be expected. Needed fair respectful communication and continued dual spouse shared growth is important but rarely understood as critical to sustaining the once agreed upon marital contract, now forgoten in the press of daily life. Could a business survive without respectful caring communication, compromise and sharing - not for long!

As respect diminishes - as compromise becomes difficult - as there is little time spent to manage the business - as work and children and time isn't managed effectively - people grow frustrated and apart. The marital contract is but a faint memory. Misunderstandings and frustrations rarely get better without regular meaningful communication in business do they? Now add the pride and emotion of personal feelings internal to any marriage and a spiral of discontent isn't surprising is it. Aside from booze, drugs and lack of moral fiber, most infidelity is born of seeking escape or distraction from a seemingly inescapable frustration or boredome. I'm sure there are some other Why's but these are the majority in my experience.

So, now you know there has been an infidelity. The why is really irrelavant initially and truly is only important in the long term as to avoid the causes again.

The contract has been breached and repair is usually impossible due to pride and the caring, respect and trust lost. The marriage may go on but usually for other reasons. Toleration, non-distrurbing the status quo, relegion, children, finances and other reasons may keep the parties in wedlock for a time or forever, but it will never be the same. And unless the "Why" is clearly understood and acceptably resolved by the two people who couldn't get it right initially, the infidelity will reoccur. Also, in these complex challenging times, the sheer numbers and the known acceptability of divorce permits most people to shun the very hard work and new mindset required to repair the very complex "Why". Romantisism is admired but life's realities and frailties predominate in all but a few cases.

In my case, forgiveness wasn't achieveable and revenge not a personal option. It was a so called friend and there were children who weren't fully informed until they were older and moved away from thier mother. How civilized eh but then I could live with myself for being fair after the 18 years invested. I had been faithful but at that time I still felt that I must have been partially at fault. In retrospect, I feel much less guilty. In part because of a successful second marriage of 19 years.

The key to marital repair is the stark reality of not letting it happen in the first place. As an adult be an adult and not a child. If you plan to make a life commitment be truly sure you understand it and are up to it. Businesses fail all the time and marriage will also if you don't realize the difficult hard work ahead and commit to growing the relationship through all its phases.

If you feel that you have truly lost any spousal feelings, admit it to your spouse and go your seperate ways without disrespecting yourself or them with an infidelity. It will be difficult but fair and it will be easier to live with yourself and others. It is also the only real good chance to repair the relationship as some respect and trust must still be present.

Wow, sorry author for the miss spellings and length but appreciate your provoking some harbored male thoughts.

Thanks for your talent, efforts and time author

You've shown the courage to try to address this issue rationally, when so many here clearly address it from a very visceral, emotional and irrational position. That alone should garner the respect you deserve for your writing and your thinking.

For many reasons, this is a subject near to me, both personally but especially in seeing how infidelity is portrayed in the media--including this medium. One thing that should be pointed out is that this medium is overwhelmingly "fiction." A story could depict events that COULD be true, but really they mostly aren't. One problem I see often involves commenters who say, "No one could possibly forgive that." Well, of course, that's often the point. Many of the stories here involve charicatures of humanity. I like some "Loving Wives" stories, but seriously doubt that I would forgive my wife if she went out and had a gang-bang with an entire NBA team...but it's an entertaining scenario to some. So one problem is how the READER reacts to a story--as entertainment, or as somehow an attempt to advocate cheating.

The other point I'd emphasize is that forgiveness centers on the one doing the forgiving, not just the transgressor. Forgiveness is, in one sense, independent of the act that requires forgiveness. There are some very "moral" people who would have forgiven Hitler for his crimes if he had shown the proper degree of shame. For others, what Hitler did was unforgiveable. This is the case with infidelity. The betrayed partner is the one who must live with the consequences of forgiveness, or lack thereof. The cheater has to live with the consequences of the ACT of infidelity, primarily, because forgiveness is NOT within the control of the cheater. So forgiveness is an issue in one sense of, what are you willing to live with? And especially, what are you willing to live with into the FUTURE? Forgiveness exists not to absolve the guilty party of any guilt. It exists so that the betrayed party can move forward with his or her life, whether that is a life with the guilty one or without the guilty one.

So the second problem I see, which is peripherally addressed by you, is that standards of forgiveness cannot be universal. They are, by definition, purely personal. And what I find upsetting is the idea that others want to take their personal standards for forgiveness (or lack of forgiveness) and apply them universally, claiming that "no one could possibly" forgive one act or another.

And so, if you as a reader don't like the idea that people are capable of forgiveness, that's fine. Then don't read these stories. Just don't mistake forgiveness for absolution, and don't mistake it for wimpiness. Sometimes, forgiveness is the most courageous of choices.

SG

I think you have hit the nail firmly on the head. The infidelity in a story has to be taken in the context of the story and the reader should try to see things through the eyes of the characters in the story in order to judge whether or not forgiveness is possible or an accepatble reaction to the situation. I often have difficulty deciding which way to go in my own stories until I get to the very end and have to decide.

I think the unfortunate thing is that the people who need to read this essay are not the ones who will read it.

KK

Very interesting essay. But, there are other factors that I think come into play into whether forgiveness is possible.

I agree with you that there are different types of cheating and that the type and cause of the cheating must be looked at in determining whether forgiveness can occur. While an impulsive fling can hurt a marriage and lessen trust, it is certainly easier to forgive than an affair or even a simple fling that is planned out in advance. As one of the other comments put it, its a matter of the intent.

To me the issue comes down to trust. In your essay, you ask when does a cheating occur. In my mind the cheating occurs when the cheating spouse makes the decision to betray their partner. So, if it is an impulsive action, the betrayal of trust is whenever the spouse crosses the line and, perhaps, with a one time event, the trust can be rebuilt.

However, in a planned out situation, the betrayal can come much earlier. Would it hurt any less to discover that your spouse found it necessary to date or see another person even if you caught them before they consumated their relationship?

Take the situation where the affair builds over time. The sex may not come for a while, but the betrayal of trust comes from the spouse is hiding this new relationship and in the lying. If I discovered that my wife was seeing someone from her office and felt a need to hide that from me, I would feel just as betrayed even if I caught them before anything happened. The injury to the relationship can happen at different times.

Another factor that must be considered is the issue of why the cheating spouse is sorry. Is the sorrow over getting caught, over a concern for themselves or a genuine sorrow over the damage that was done to the marriage or the spouse. Is the regret over the actions or the consequences?Unless both sides really look into the hows and whys, there is no chance that the relationship will survive.

Maybe its simplistic, but I think that forgiveness must be earned, and not simply given. The generic I'm sorry is as self serving as the affair. The cheating spouse must pull their soul out and examine why the cheating occured and really look at what they have done to the spouse and the relationship. Until they can understand the anger and hurt caused by the affair, they can't learn to regret the actions.

capecodmercury

I have to say I would find it hard to place myself into one category or the other so to speak. That is mainly because I was raised old school and can view points of the second school and I mostly agree with the middle ground.

I have way too many comments for here but I think you nailed it on most of the topic! I think I will post an article myself just to respond :)

I agree with most of your positions and because of that, I just want to expound upon a few of your ideas.

Concerning cheating in open marriages, I think that couples augment or replace the conventions of their community with their own; they define exclusivity in other areas besides sex. Put another way; even in an open marriage there still must exist some common agreement that justifies and defines that relationship. A breach of that agreement can be no less hurtful than a breach in a conventional marriage, perhaps even more so, since the social pressures of the community do not exist to penalize a breach. So the irony may be that one can cheat in an open marriage, it’s just that the definition of cheating might be not be apparent to us on the outside. I would hypothesize that most open marriages are only “open” in a limited sense.

The definition of cheating is much broader than in the stories I have read. For instance, cheating does not necessarily have to involve sex. Sharing an intimate piece of information or a conversation with someone can constitute cheating. In my opinion, the definition of cheating is always defined by the offended partner and agreed upon in advance by the offending partner. Most of the time the relationship has transparency relative to the community, but not always.

Flirting to some is an example of non-sexual cheating. More than one relationship has ended because of flirting by one of the partners. If flirting is causing your partner distress, and you know that it does, and you persist in their presence…is this cheating? To some partners it is, and their position for them, is a valid one. I will go out on a limb and say that women are more likely to define non-sexual interactions with a third party as cheating more so than men are.

If there is no general agreement on all the activities that constitute cheating then by extension I would not expect consensus on when forgiveness is appropriate. I look at stories to be as realistic as possible when it comes to adultery and forgiveness and since real life is so much more complex than any of the stories on this site, the stories expressed should be quite diverse.

When a story deals with cheating in a long-term marriage I’m often dismayed at the ease at which the marriage is concluded and the absence of other significant voices in the decision. I expect spouses in a long-term relationship to be more disposed to forgive (under the right circumstances), than those in a relatively newer relationship.

I also presume that children tend to moderate a desire for revenge and heighten the capacity for forgiveness. However, in most of the stories I have read on this site children are little more than appendages. Their names are rarely mentioned, and when they are, they are still never developed as characters.

This treatment of children is inconsistent with the reality, at least within the U.S. Statistically; two-thirds of all divorced couples are childless at the time of divorce. Children complicate the process of ending a relationship and couples ARE less likely to divorce when they are present. In fact, childlessness may be a prominent reason for divorce.

While divorce may end the marriage, it does not necessarily end the relationship. The presence of children, irrespective of their ages, assures that some ongoing connection that may endure a lifetime. For this reason, I often shrink from the idea of the aggrieved spouse seeking revenge. It is not that I dislike the idea of revenge, quite the contrary. However, the idea of a revenge that damages innocent parties while hurting the offender is unacceptable to me.

In the U.S., husbands cheat more often than wives do, and yet stories of cheating wives seem to provide a flashpoint for comments calling for vengeance and retribution. Are men less likely to forgive than women are? Is the affront more pronounced in the male? I tend to think that the answer to both of these questions is yes.

Men fair worse than women do when they are suddenly found betrayed and alone. If the woman has taken the man’s trust he may therefore, be more justified in seeking retribution because the damage is greater than if the roles were reversed.

This does not excuse the wayward husband or his impact upon his innocent wife; it just says that women appear more capable of rebounding from such disappointment than men. Could the resilience of women be more associated with their greater capacity for forgiveness? Might men need to exercise this virtue more often? Forgiveness is not weakness. It may be the best coping mechanism we have when we find that our partner has cheated on us.

As usual Patricia your comments are well reasoned. That is probably why I enjoy your stories so much. There is a story posted on this site that seems to put the reader in exactly the quandary you mention. Elenor (sp) Rigby, by HardDaysKnight. It would be interesting to see how you would end such a story.

Moderate to the point of being ineffective, I thought. the trouble with being a moderate is you get hit by both sides!

Grin!

Patricia, a true Southern woman (is there any other?).

Excellent exposition on taking a moderate, reasoned position regarding fidelity. I just had to read this piece after all those hateful venomous attacks stirred up at House of Cards. And, of course, the shocker at Lyin' Eyes.

Easy to dismiss most of those anonymous slams. The most offensive of these slams have nothing to offer. Don't like it, don't read it.

The only problem I have with some of the criticisms are the ones that you've got to wonder what story they've been reading. These are the worst; they twist the story to fit their own personal agenda. Case in point would be HOC's affair where Marianne had compartmentalized her affair to keep it separate from the rest of her life. This was a tough one. Of course any affair that goes much beyond the one day quickie will develop a certain level of intimacy. What was important here was not the intimacy but the compartmentalization. You have to read the whole thing and keep it all in context.

The shocker at Lyin' Eyes was the final chapter's reconciliation after 3 chapters of portraying Laura as a monstrous cold bitch. She rubbed her husband's nose in the affair. The problem here was the emotional disconnect between the first 3 chapters & the final chapter. Here it was logically possible but emotionally unbelievable.

But as you say in your essay, where infidelity and reconciliation are concerned, it all depends. There's no "one size fits all." Relationships are hard; the context in which fidelity/infidelity occurs must be considered. So, who's the worse cheater, the cold spouse that never develops emotional closeness but never hooks up with the opposite sex as the classic cheat; or the warm spouse that also keeps up affairs on the side. It is all these possibilities that make these type of stories such fascinating reads.

Great essay.

I think any kind of relationship-sexual, friendship, buisness has certain unspoken rules and going beyond those rules harms the relationship.

Being a moderate of any kind is really hard because you are really vilified by the extremes. Literotica is a great places becuase all views can be expressed-free speece-what a concept.

A writer has to be able to take the heat for what they write. If they are writing simply to get kudos, that's fine also, but I think writers should also write what they feel, what they have passion for and let the chips fall where they may or they are in danger of being bullied by the loud minority.

Adultery is wrong. Period. Split if you want someone else. A cheater is a loser. There is no excuse for adultery. People change. Peoples feelings change. Get a divorce and do anything, or anybody, you want. But get a divorce first.

While you did challenge the pragmatics, you let the most important issue “why” completely out of the equation and therefore to forgive or not to forgive remains absolutely irrelevant.

The physical act of cheating is not world changing. How could it be, if it were only the rubbing of body parts? Its emotional value would be more of less the same as a handshake.

Cheaters cheat for very specific reasons. No one just wakes up one morning and decides to cheat. There is a full “mental” evolution towards the climax of the physical act. Also, forgiveness of not, caught or not, there is a full “mental” evolution after the fact. Without knowing the exact reasoning and the psychology of the cheater, the psychology of the cheater “after the fat”, forgiveness is not only irrelevant, it’s weak and an illogical action.

Unfortunately the vast majority of all the stories here (well and poorly written) do not go into the psychology of cheating and therefore also their storylines flop. They remain in the realm of being unrealistic and fantasies at best.

People do not bounce from one side of the psychological spectrum to the other just because singular events happen. We are a composite of our genes and our learned experiences. Though we have free will, we cannot act outside of ourselves. (Aka: Subjective Chance) It is impossible. All actions that we take, we take because of how we assess a given situation. Therefore there is an evolution towards cheating, and after the fact and the results, an evolution again.

Any writer writing a story about cheating needs to objectively analyze the “subjective behavior” of the personality they are writing about. Mrs. Goodytwoshoes is not going to go out and let her self get gangbanged unless she is a psychopath. If she is a psychopath… well is forgiveness even an issue?

Statistically, Mrs. Goodytwoshoes will have an affair, liaison or zippless fuck sometime during her marriage. Yet, the very action of sex, for a female means, opening up (in a physical, metaphorical and in a psychological way) and allowing someone into her intimate sphere of being. (Which is obviously not the case for a male.)

Therefore the term “It was only sex” has a masculine and a feminine meaning and connotation. Sex has therefore and logically because the higher invasion into her intimate sphere of being a higher value for Mrs. Goodytwoshoes. The price for Mrs. Goodytwoshoes’s tail is going to be than so much higher, hence the mental evolutions so much greater for her.

The question of forgiveness or not is than more a question of change. How much did Mrs. Goodytwoshoes evolve and is she than still of value for Mr. Goodytwoshoes.

Don't know what to say about your stories. Most of them I rate between 75 and 100. I like the way that you tell a story even though at times I don't like the type of story you are writing. I dislike wimp/cuckold stories but your stories rise above most of what is written here. This is NOT a slam aganist other writters on Literotica. It just that if they are not writting my type of story I don't finish reading them. You are the exception. Thank you for writting.

There is another dimension to the matter, aside from the question of forgiveness and blame, and it's 'who are you'?

By which I mean that if John believes Jane is a woman who would simply never cheat, who shares his belief in the absolute sanctity of marriage (and this applies regardless of the genders involved, BTW), and then discovers that Jane _did_ cheat, well, that means his understanding of _who his wife is_ was wrong.

Think about that. Even if Jane is sincerely, desperately sorry, even if she wants to make amends, the fact remains that the woman he thought was utterly averse to cheating _did_ cheat, which means he wasn't married to the woman he thought he was, at least not quite.

Which means he has to doubt his own perceptions, his own judgement, _everything_ is suddenly open to question. Do they mean the same thing by 'faithful'? Do they understand the concept of marriage in the same way? Has John been loving a figment of his imagination rather than actual woman Jane?

There's more to it than just forgiveness or blame.

One of the things I would consider are the following... Was the offender belittling and demeaning the unknowing spouse? What I mean in this. Was the cheater degrading their spouse’s profession, their prowess in bed, or their naivety? Disrespect is a big factor of determining if the offender should be forgiven.

Then there is the factor of prolonged lack of intimacy. Is one of the partners not fulfilling the needs of the other? If he answer is no, then this can open the door to cheating. It is not an excuse, but it is a factor to consider. Could I have been a better husband or wife, so the need would not have been there in the first place? Believe it or not, but this does factor into how to proceed.

Then there are the cases that the cheating has gone on a long time, they lose their marriage and or families as a result. After the cheater hits bottom and realizes they are the only ones to blame, and then do what is needed to change their lives, whether they reconcile with their spouse or not. They admit they were the cheater, they were thoughtless, uncaring, self-centered, but turn around (repent) from that way of thinking and walk the straight and narrow. Should not after a long period of time they are shown to have changed, they be forgiven? Do any of us like being held accountable for something we did years ago and have already made amends for those deeds? There may not be reconciliation of the marriage, but least they are released from their sins by the one who they wronged. Isn’t this what the word grace is about? Giving forgiveness when it is not deserved? It releases both the offended and the offender and brings peace. Grace is not license, please remember that.

I think this is one of the better reviews on the subject, and what a hot button subject it is.

I tend to fall in the moderator category. I always try to put myself in the mindset of the person and look objectively at the situation before making a judgement if the person was right or wrong.

In stories if it is a one time, not planned, mistake then I usually won't call for a "torch the bitch/jerk". The one thing that really bugs me are certain commentors on these stories where if the man cheats it's okay, but if the wife seeks revenge then she is a "whore", what a double standard. While I don't agree with the revenge angle it makes sense in trying to hurt the person who hurt you.

In my reply I am going to ignore commenting on the many grammatical errors and structural problems with this, instead I will focus on your ideology. To begin with you claim to be a moderate, which is the tag-line description for this essay. A moderate by definition is someone whose views when examined is representative of the average person. Likewise is a view that avoids the extremes. However, you neglect to mention if your views is moderate for Literotica or moderate for America. The reason why I say this, as I read your essay it became apparent that your views are not moderate from either viewpoint.

I start my analysis by examining your definition of infidelity. Your definition, if it was a moderate point of view, would have included a flexible definition based on the status of the relationship. Instead your definition appears to be inflexible that is equally applied to a couple that just started dating or a married couple of 30 years. Furthermore you definition is not clear. Instead you rely on observations without providing an understandable definition of infidelity.

Next issue, I get the general impression you do not understand the various types of relationships and how boundaries work with them. In this essay you use liberal as a way to imply a couple that has an open relationship, without defining it, has no boundaries. Though I do not feel every couple that every type of group sex experience is an open relationship and going into detail as why I feel this way is out of scope for my response. I will, therefore, use open relationship to mean any type of activity that involves at least one other person outside of the relationship regardless of the type of experience and regardless if the purpose of the experience was to form an emotional bond wth the invited person(s). The reality is there are varying degrees of open relationships based on the extent to which a couple decides to remain monogamous. Also, for any open relationship to work boundaries need to be established and enforced. This means a lot of work is needed for the relationship to properly function and it means, it is not a lackadaisical approach to have a relationship.

Third issue the title to this piece is forgiveness but there is nothing, that I can read, about how to forgive. Instead, this essay seems to be rant about cheating.

Since you have not examined various view points regarding cheating, you have not properly defined cheating, and appear to have a quite inflexible approach to infidelity, it is my feeling you have a very conservative approach to this topic. Furthermore I have not learned anything from this essay and feel editing would have made your point clearer. Finally I would recommend rewriting this. This recommendation is based on I do not understand how the title of this story relates to what you state in it.

BUT there may be gray areas, but why. TK U MLJ LV NV

Don't use all those abbreviations. I have no idea what you are talking about.

I had ED in 1998 (that is, I had it longer than that but it got much worse then), I had been doing oral and so had my wife. She went into the BR and vomited the last time and said that she did not want to continue making love anymore. I offered to continue doing oral to her but she did not want that, evidently she was afraid that I would request it from her again. So, rock on until 2012. I asked her if she was interested in resuming sex with me and she did not have to do anything but let me do her, orally with kissing etc. She said that she would think about it. This was about six months ago. It has not been mentioned again. So, again, I decided to hell with it. I have had the same lady friend since 1998 but early in 2012 she decided that we should just be friends instead of FWB. So, if things came out in the open who should forgive who? Our kids are grown and out, have been.

I am fortunate that my lady friend has decided that we could be FWB again, she has been living about 600 miles away since 2007 and we could only meet twice or three times a year. Fortunately she is moving closer soon. So, who is wrong or right? I feel no guilt and evidently my wife is happy without sex since 1998. And only about six kisses a year, fuck it, why bother?

Yeah but is there an unforgivable act or actions?

At what point do you, as a Moderate, say that there is no POINT in forgiveness?

When the vase gets broke at what point do you say 'It's as good as new' again?

My trouble is I can still see the broken vase as having been broken at least ONCE.

When you have to ask yourself what is cheating, society has failed you.

Would you do it in front of your partner? If the answer is no then it's cheating!

roomfor1more has his own twisted idea of right and wrong. to accuse you of being too conservative only indicates that his head is up his ass. i was dumped for a younger model with a big bank account. the worst part was the creeping emotional withdrawl. i had invested 25 years in my marriage and she threw it away like garbage. great essay

I guess it depends.

Very helpful in establishing consistent parameters within which a hopeful writer may someday guide himself.

If it's something you are not able to do in front of your significant other, then it is cheating to a greater or lesser degree.

As for BTB or RAAC, each situation MUST be tried on a case-by-case basis. There is no easy answer to this as it is ALWAYS the decision of the cheated party, and only they know what they are willing to forgive... Or not.

But you NEVER forget. End to nonsense

To forgive or BTB? The only answer is "it depends"

im very much a you fucked up you're burned bitch or bastard . sometimes forgiveness is earned, but it's rare . as for willing or gutless males and unapologetic cheating wives nope id sterilize both , bullets lead to bars😆👍

I shared a lot of your process. There are many factors to juggle here. But I lean towards BTB. RAACs are hard, because cheating is a hard thing to deal with for everyone involved.

You first got to the core of the issue, deceit. You try to build a life with someone, and a great big chunk of it was a lie. Life is already hard, and unbelievably tragic. Really listen to even well-to-do friends, and you might hear some horror story about their youth. A mother decapitated by a tree in front of them (that's a true story) just awful experiences. And then you think you have at least one single person to build a life with...organize some happiness out of the chaos. And then you discover you don't know them at all. That throws you into flux. You'll ask yourself, "what the hell do you really know....you didn't even know this person you shared a roof with for x amount of years"

that's what cheating does, at it's core. And if the cheated partner was faithful, that's where the pain is all too real. let's not forget the cheater, if they do feel empathy, how crappy do you think this makes them feel? either they'll fight their own reality and be in a constant state of civil war within, or they get to just take a real hard long look at themself and say, "i'm the bad guy here....i'v taken something pure and ruined it" there's no easy way out for them.

i understand the btb crowd more. anger and sadness are common emotions. the 'forgive at all costs' crowd is a lot harder to relate to. i understand denial and bargaining, but if that's all they have...it's a really painful place to be. at least an angry wife or husband can go through all five stages, accept the broken relationship and move towards a future. staying stuck in unearned forgiveness feels hollow. the pain will get buried, but remain. my ultimate takeaway is that love is common, but a relationship is work. if one partner expresses or hides their lack of commitment, is there really any point in making it work? i think more relationships would work out if people as a whole understood that they're not special. you can be replaced. what you bring to a relationship is very much those qualities of honest, effort, communication, and FUN. And believe it or not, fun is work. Maybe you just wanna play your game while your spouse watches their show.....but this'll be the 20th time in a row. Maybe now is the time to wash your stanky ass, dress nice, and invite them to go on a hike with you.

Interesting. It is easy to see the rage these stories bring, and I agree that there are two divided, often adversarial sides but for different reasons. The "forgiveness" readers have a unique perspective that is impossible to attain in real life but common in the written word and that is the ability to know the characters true thoughts because they are conveyed in black in white by the author. That never happens anywhere in the world unless ESP exists, which it doesn't. So when regret and repentance is conveyed by a character, those are the true beliefs of the character. The reader knows then, the truth and what the future holds.

The other side takes the actions of the character and places themselves in the characters shoes and uses their real life experiences, often painful and damaging, to decide the future of the characters. It is perhaps, then a means to build their own selves up and to heal. Or perhaps to take vengeance on a cheating character that was missing in their own real life experience. They also take vengeance on the other readers and the author this way, labeling them a cuck or a wimp, because doing so, hides their shame in being one themselves, in the distant past. It is probably an effective mechanism for their well-being, as long as it isn't offensive. Too often it is however. The problem with this side is that they ignore the author's words in describing the true thoughts of the actors and instead create their own future outlook for characters in a story as would be in real life. This is silly, of course, but too often we read a comment that says, "She is a cheater and a liar and will end up fucking around on the cuck the first chance she gets" when the author knows the evidence is right here in print that she won't ever consider those actions again.

What is left out of this essay is what is the definition of forgiveness? Does it mean that I love you unreservedly, trust you fully, and the relationship continues as though the betrayal never happened? For those of us on the BTB side of the scale, we find this to be unrealistic. Only God forgives at that level.

For many of us, forgiveness means that I’m not going to be the one to punish the wrongdoers. Now, keep in mind that divorce is NOT a punishment, rather an inevitable consequence. When someone commits adultery, divorce is just formally letting the government know that the contract has been broken. Forgiveness is, to a BTBer, the following:

I’ll tell the children and the parents the truth of what you did, along with anyone who asks, because I don’t lie, but I won’t put up posters, or share videos online.

I won’t arrange for you to lose your job, or end up homeless down by the river. However if your boss wants to let you go, I’m not going to save you. You removed yourself from my protection.

I’m not going to physically harm you, torture you, or kill you. Depending on who you chose to have the affair with, they might hurt you. After all “By the wicked shall the wicked be punished”.

TLDR: Many of us genuinely believe, as bewildering as it is to some, that the punishment for adultery should be death. Therefore, forgiveness is merely the withholding of the punishment. If they are truly remorseful, and have “learned their lesson”, then they will be better in their next relationship, but they don’t get to keep the relationship that they betrayed.

Hopefully this helps to understand why we make the comments that are weird to some of you.

ZK

Things to add:

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- You forgot to add "or when a woman cheats on her cuckold bf/husband" to Rule 11 about "no pregnancies"

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- Someone "famous" already mentioned it in an essay on writing, but in LE universe, especially LW, 30% of male population are Navy Seals

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- Again may be LW specific, but ALL husbands (or at least an overwhelming majority) are mentally defective Ghandi followers. They LOOOOOOVE their wives with an emotion so fictionally powerful that it survives not simply being cheated on, but even being literally stabbed in the back, or literally cuckolded. They can't possibly see the love of their life cry or even be sad, even if the sadness is from the evil bitch self inflicted karmic damage, for which they feel somehow responsible.

/

- Yes, as per rule #1, everyone has large penis (except C.H.). BUT, if you're black the penis is at least 12 inches and thicker than an elephant's leg, or at least trunk. In real universe, in USA, whites have penis statistics of only 1/10th inch shorter on average than blacks.

/

- Again LW specific, but while there's obviously nothing lucky or good about being cheated on, those cheated on husbands/fiancés/BFs, have leprechaun level 80 level of luck as far as discovering the cheating, for most part. The most improbable sets of circumstances happen to achieve that. Although, if one talks to people in law/justice system, it seems that most real world criminals are caught because they either were dumb or blabbed so perhaps this isn't so unrealistic.

/

- Single fathers with daughters outside incest sub-universe, have the daughters ALWAYS unnaturally bright, with Einstein level IQ and off the charts EQ, and their main mission in life since age 8, to find the next wife for the father. Curiously, it's only daughters - the sons are typical real universe emotionally immature males, in case of a single father, they at best hurtfully take the mickey out of their dad for being single and in case of a mother, they throw a major tantrum if she brings home a guy she likes to meet the child (ok that one might be realistic i suppose).

/

- Amazing men (good looking, rich, great personality but with dark attractive edge) always fall for the shitty women with awful past, after the women's obligatory (and usually not very taxing and entirely insincere) "redemption"; instead of finding a decent woman who wasn't a dumpster fire of a toxic superdump all her life except last 2 years.

/

- And in those exceptional cases when they don't, those amazing men (good looking, rich, great personality but with dark attractive edge) fall for a woman who never did anything to better her life, got involved with a total shit guy (of her own choice and volition) and is now saddled with the shithead guy's child or children. Women who make good life choices and have good personality and don't do bad stuff are shit out of luck.

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- Everyone who discovers they are being cheated on, immediately gets brain freeze for an extended period of time, can't think of anything, can't make decisions etc. Unless you are one of the 30% of men who are Navy Seals, then you know EXACLY how to solve the cheating problem within 10 seconds, with a plan rivaling the bombing of Hiroshima in its complexity, ruthlessness and efficacy of results.

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- 5% of population (mostly men) are uber-hackers, able to break into accounts, financial institutions, etc... They know how to clone phones and install spying apps from internet (even though it's on unrooted Android and un-jailbroken iPhone, which most random spying apps can't do). However, in a rare case the woman is a hacker, she is always literally world class champion. She doesn't break into someone's gmail, she breaks into CIA and NSA and FBI (simultaneously), steals money from offshore banks (always donating to charity) and can find any person by just their first name and last digit of car tag.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are several problems with "forgiveness" side, that you should take into consideration. To clarify, when I talk about forgiveness, I mean "forgive and continue loving and being married". I am NOT talking about "divorce, and stop feeling negative feelings about the spouse for the sake of your own mental wellbeing" - the latter is actually a good thing, especially *in your own head*. The proponent of justice in me thinks that you should NOT inform the perpetrator of cheating, that you forgave them, even if you internally do for your own sake. As to "forgiving so you can stay married", here are the problems:

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- Forgiveness as a concept increases the unjustness in the universe. On a philosophical level it means people can do bad things to other people with impunity. That's a shitty universe to live in. On a practical level, in a system, it's a strategy which creates moral hazard, LITERALLY inviting people to harm others. Including the one you "forgave" further harming you - see below.

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- Recidivism among cheaters is VERY high (just Google "cheating recidivism"). "once a cheater always a cheater" is NOT a LW fictional trope; it's a reflection of actual reality in life. When you forgive a cheater and take them back, you basically just ensured you are staying married to a ticking bomb of cheating.

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- Forgiveness (except in specific very narrow circumstances) is a slippery slope. If you can forgive a "blowjob" why wouldn't and shouldn't you forgive sex? if you can forgive sex 2 times one weekend, why not 100 times over 2 years? If you can forgive her risking getting pregnant with his child, why not actually getting pregnant? In practical individual terms, this means if she got away with the former, she will now be incentivized to do the latter (see last bullet). In higher scale terms, it means that there's very little solid philosophical ground to be a "moderate" - if you can argue for forgiving some things, your own arguments are likely to be usable to argue for forgiving almost anything. (yes, there are very small defined limits where there is no slippery slope, e.g. distinguishing zero-intent vs. prior intent cheating; zero-lies vs. full transparency followup; and couple more, but this is out of scope for now).

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- Forgiveness creates a VERY strong imbalance in a marriage, making it pathological. In essence, cheating+forgiveness means that BOTH spouses realize with clarity that the victim loves the perpetrator significantly more. Yes that imbalance already existed, but at the very least, it was invisible, which constrained both spouses from either reacting to it or abusing it too much. At this point, the cheater will feel they have no need to even try to treat their spouse well in any way shape or form, and won't have ANY respect for the spouse even if they had some before. Whereas, most NORMAL spouses would start and keep feeling resentment over imbalance.

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- If children are involved, forgiving the perpetrator creates an unhealthy lesson for the kids, that it's OK to severely harm someone you claim to "love", with no consequences, and to generally be an immoral shithead. After all whatever you do, you'll be forgiven.