All Comments on 'The 4 Types of Mind Control'

What do you think of Tristan's Tale?

I think it defies categorization and is it's own unique thing outside of the genre. :)

I like your essay and the classification you provide. There's something for everyone and I for one like some takes on the ethical MC as it provides the writer the opportunity to create conflict within the mind controller (usually the main character). The main character may try to be ethical, but has to consider using MC for self defense, or stopping another person capable of MC without the ethical boundaries (usually the antagonist).

I wanted to take the opportunity to add a potential 5th kind of MC, which doesn't actually have what it takes to be called Mind Control, but is worth mentioning here; that is, as the title of this comment states, Mind Reading. If you can't change someone's mind about something, it shouldn't, by definition, be called MC, however, you have stories like "My Only Talent" from Conanthe, where the main character uses mind reading to get results that would be a lot more difficult without the ability to read minds. Mind Reading also implies an invasion of privacy, so there are ethical complications with being able to read minds. If you wanted a Monster Mind Reader you could have the monster use mind reading to learn anyone's secrets and control people with good old fashioned blackmail.

I have found that many MC stories start well and then the reader quickly loses interest as the Mind Controller is just to powerful and nothing provides an interesting conflict (which is probably the reason for the ethical dilemma, or the equally powerful antagonist). I very much like your Shadow Doctor, as there are considerable obstacles to successfully execute mind control.

There's a good point that mind reading (without control) is its own thing. Though if I remember correctly, My Only Talent does eventually include the protagonist being able to 'nudge' people's minds to influence them slightly (it's been a while).

Another potential category that was pointed out to me in emails is culture-wide mind control, either through mass brainwashing or simply an excess of mind-controllers (which is kind of similar to Tristan's Tale), where there's so much mind control happening that using it is basically a form of self defense.

I think there's a wide array, both of corner cases I missed and of stories that bridge multiple of my categories. Like all taxonomy systems, mine breaks down if you stress it hard enough, which is fine. It's really just a thought exercise, to get readers and writers to think about what they enjoy about the genre and why. :)

At least I now know I don't need to read anything in this category.

I think that Three Square Meals by Tefler is a pretty solid example of it. It starts with accidental mind control and once the main character realizes that there is a control aspect to his powers explicitly removes the compulsion to obey and starts to make damn sure anybody getting affected by his powers is as informed and consenting as he can manage.

I really enjoyed your dissection of the genre. It's a favorite of mine and I'm glad to see others take it as seriously as it deserves. I wrote a mind control story last year and without knowing it, I guess I was trying to fall into your Ethical Mind Control category. The name of the story is Confidence. I'd love to hear your thoughts and see if it does actually fall into this category. Thanks for sharing this! It's very thought provoking and informative.

i have occasionally read from the mind control category and while I appreciate your thoughts on mind control. I never thought much about the category before, but I do not agree with the term Accidental Mind Control. Based on your own description, it is still a rape but with the weak argument "I came across them like this and was compelled to help and have my kinky fun." It is literally no different than seeing a drunk person, unable to consent to sex and then fucking them in your car on the way to the hospital. That scenario where you help the person and have your fun, is no different.

The only way around this is to give complete disclosure to your intended subject and their gain full consent when they are capable of consent by sobriety, independent thought, and sufficient emotional and chronological age to make that choice to surrender control.

Problem is, that describes dom/sub relationship and not a forced one.

I probably could have gone into this in a bit more depth, but yes, "accidental" isn't purely ethical. Most 'accidental' stories have the subject instilled with a need to obey/'have a master' by the evil mind controller, which the protagonist 'reluctantly' fills. But yes, the ethical thing to do is get the subject into therapy and try to help them, and work towards as much consent as possible within the genre.

I think there is room for MC in which the controller's actions are a matter of survival. Sure, everyone says it's better to be a dead lion than a live weasel, but very, very few of us would make that choice when confronted with the abyss and the power to avoid it.

There are a couple of good recent examples of the amoral controller, neither on this site, but both available on at least one site that hosts "The Shadow Doctor": "Discipline and Reward", and "Chances Are...". In both cases, the hero/anti-hero believes he needs to do what he is doing in order to survive (Or, in the case of CA, also to protect his friends and lovers).

(I'm sure some would argue there is no MC in CA. However, the hero's REAL power of "reality control" DEFINITELY devolves to MC when the "reality" he is controlling is another's thoughts. Likewise, I'm sure that some would argue that the actions in D&R are more "mind break" (torture-based compliance) than "mind control", but the moral/ethical arguments for either are roughly the same.)

Another common "survival" scenario would be the fairly common "secret war of the controllera" trope, in which "good" controllers are forced to wage war against evil controllers for one reason or another. A VERY good example of this scenario is "Jake's Dream Come True", also available on other sites that host your story. Another good one is "Tristan's Tale", an unfinished story right here on Literorica.

Other "amoral" cases exist: the mad MC with no real grasp of reality; the Alien/Divine MC, who see us as no more than "top predator" wild animals; the non-/semi-sentient MC (Larry Niven's "Slavers", perhaps? Or maybe "the Virus"?) who are just acting according to their evolved nature. All of these could certainly be cast as "monsters", but you specifically limited your idea of monsters to "evil".

In any case, I would love to hear your take on any of these stories or ideas.

Hey Anon, thanks for the comments.

I haven't read Chances Are yet, but I have been keeping up with Discipline and Reward. I think D&R is definitely in my monster category; the protagonist refers to himself as a monster multiple times. And even if he's convinced he's doing what he needs to do to survive, it's pretty easy to take a step back and see that there are a million possible routes he could have taken to fight the gods that aren't as evil as what he went with. I'm also pretty skeptical of the author's attempt to turn it into a love story; the idea that someone who's been enslaving people for millenia would be redeemed by the love of a good woman just doesn't sit right with me.

Regarding Tristan's Tale, I think I've said above that I think it defies categorization. It's a fascinating story and I can't wait for the next update.

I do like the idea of a 'monster' style category where the mind controller isn't sentient - the virus or alien parasite idea. Still, since the virus isn't usually the one having sex with the mind controlled person, I think most of those stories would probably fall into my monster or accidental categories, based on how the person/people interacting with the victim react.

Really like what you have to say on the subject. Love the "monster" stories myself, with a personal favorite over in the celebrities category, Mind Fucking Kelly Kelly. Wonder if you've checked that one out and where falls on your list of those types of stories.

First off, I didnt think to apply such an interesting application of ethics to mind control. Im glad you made me think about it.

For the ethical try, "Trucker's Curse," by North200. Although, I think it has an element of accidental in there.

Usually, when I read mind control I assume the recipient still has their original personality, but their body is hijacked and the refipient is an observer of their own actions, or the personality is given a different pleasure response. By that last part I am talking about the type of mind control where the controller makes the recipient enjoy something they would not have enjoyed before the mind control. I view this as similar to someone enjoying a new hobby. The recipients personality didnt change, their personality is simply reacting to an emotion it was given the same way that personality would react to it without control. So, unless the story has a controller who completely overhauls the recipients personality, I view mind control as more like kidnapping, or slipping someone some enjoyable drugs without their knowledge. I prefer the latter thought as I dont see it as particularly bad.

Also, in your ethical category, you mention that the person with the new personality claims to be happier than ever. You compare it to murdering someone and replacing them. I think this comparison is not quite accurate, because I would think that unless the controller removed their past memories, the recipient would have a continuum of consciousness from the past personality to the modefied personality. It would be more comparible to relate this case to an aging person. You probably had a different personality when you were a kid, compared to now, compared to you in old age. You remember being a kid. You inow what personality you had. If you are happier as an adult than as a kid, I would consider your opinion valid. I wouldnt compare your present personality to a dead and reborn personality since childhood. I would consider your views also valid if you had a personality, you had a crazy acid trip, the trip changed your personality, and you claimed to be happier after the trip. Many depressed people who went through medical studies have become happier after shrooms and acid, and I wouldnt ncall their trip a personality death. I could go on, but my point is the ability to compare two personalities in your mind gives the validity you need to determine which one is happier in the context of its time. Finally utilitarian ethics would argue that the most happiness for the most people is the most ethical situation, and personality death or not, having more dopamine and seratonine under the mind controlled state is more ethical than no mind control and less happy neurotransmitters.

Utilitarian ethics is itself monstrous in this context. Right and wrong is not being measured by "happiness" or "pleasure" but freedom. We aren't ethically obligated to be happy. Being unhappy, sad, depressed etc. isn't a sin or a crime.

In this context we are ethically obligated to preserve personal freedom, be it our own or others.

While dealing with real world issues, the devil is in the details. Determining what is a right and what is a privilege is complex, to say the least. But freedom of thought, not action, is pretty fundamental.

I completely agree with your concept of character death during certain mind control situation, but only in situations which the alteration is permanent, for example if a character is continually forced to do something completely out of character that they normally would have never done or would most likely choose to stop should they be given free will, for example female mind controlled character ignoring their sick parents, spouse or innocent children whom they originally loved and spent time with often, but now spends most of their time enjoying gang bangs not even bother to care about them anymore. Or a kind saintly person whom wouldn't hurt a fly suddenly mind manipulated into becoming a hired killer. My perspective would be that the character is a dramatically different person as the characteristics and mental persons which dedicates and influence their actions have been dramatic overhauled and they have been transformed into someone unrecognizable from any who may have originally known them including themselves. However I only would consider this character "death" if the change is irreversible or permanent, if the character can go back to the original "self" through any means whether it be a snap of the fingers, bump on the head ect, then I cannot consider this a character death since when one thinks of real life death we think of it as something permanent. Of course if we're talking about novel's and stories than there's a chance that even if the change is reversible we as the readers may never witness it or may never occur before the end of the novel\ story leaving us to wonder if the mind control was ever reversed or cancelled. I feel like this would be considered a partial character death since there is hope that the alteration may be reversed but there's also a high possibility that it may never occur similar to a coma patient, there's a chance they'll wake up but then again they may never wake up again...well that's what the epilogue and sequels are for.

I agree that heavily rewiring personality or outright replacing it is essentially a murder.

But any sane human being is in process of constant changing his/her personality anyway, mind control or not. Actually, NOT changing personality is more akin to death.

So, I thinkless invasive mind control still can be "ethical".

I am the Baltimore Rogers who wrote _Discipline and Reward: a Love Story_, which you were discussing here about a year and a half ago. Sorry all, it's not posted on this site. I don't much like the way Literotica organizes (or really, fails to organize) multi-chapter stories. In any case, someone told me about this essay and the mention of my story in the comments, so I came over to check it out. I'm flattered that you (TehCorinthian) were reading it, and I hope you eventually finished it. And I'm flattered to be mentioned (by Anonymous) in the company of _Chances Are..._ and _Tristan's Tale_, both of which I think are far superior to my story.

As for your assertion that the narrator referred to himself as a "monster", sadly, that is not true. I searched both my original drafts and the version of the story currently on the EMCSA and found exactly 5 references to the word "monster". 3 were references to the BRM ("big rubber monster") that plays a minor role in the story. Another was a reference to monsters as a type of mythical creature ("fairies, sprites, demons, dryads, nymphs, monsters, and, yes, gods"). The last was descriptive of the Greek goddess Athena. You can do the same search as I did; search for the following in Google: "site:mcstories.com/DisciplineAndReward monster" (without the quotes)

Of course the narrator *does* quite often refer to himself as "evil", but usually in regards to his past actions. He also gives every evidence throughout the story that he is not proud of those past actions and that, second only to his need to survive, he is trying to become a better "person". Far more often he is described, both by himself and others, as (Ha!) "amoral". I wonder if that is where "Anonymous" got the idea for the title for his posting?

As for my "attempt to turn it into a love story", well, it was pretty much a love story from the outset, at least in the mind of its author, moi. As for "the love of a good woman", I hope I made it clear over the course of the story that Kynthia wasn't just a "good" woman, she was a flippin' *amazing* woman.

In any case, I think Anonomous's point, if I'm interpreting it correctly, is valid. Your "categories" are too restrictive and do not really account for, among other things, MCs that start out just trying to survive, like my narrator in D&R. MCs in many stories are no more "evil" than Anne Rice's reluctant vampire, Louis de Pointe du Lac.

Other minor points:

-- _Tristan's Tale_ is easy to categorize. It's a MC homage to Harry Potter. (I say this knowing full well that IncomingPornDuck is a far superior writer, "whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose")

-- I intrigued by your assertion that "there are a million possible routes he could have taken to fight the gods that aren't as evil as what he went with". I thought I did a pretty good job of boxing narrator-san into a corner. I'd love to discuss those "alternate routes" with you. If you don't want to have this discussion in public, both of the places where D&R is posted have ways for you to get in touch with me privately (as does Literotica, I suppose. I just don't come here very often).

-- Do you have any plans to finish _The Shadow Doctor_? It's a really good story, marred only by the fact that it has been hanging incomplete for well over a year (two years?) now.

I know what you mean about it being hard to write mind control stories that don't make the protagonist look like an evil person when you look past the sexual gratification fantasy. That's actually one of the reasons I am trying to do something to that effect with my own story on Chyoa. Long story short, the main character is a multibillionaire mind controllers from a minority group that are essentially the next step in human evolution but one day, he was warned that the zombie apocalypse will begin in a matter of months so he burned through his fortune to make a network of fully stocked, interconnected bunkers and started saving as many women from the zombie hordes as he could. His best hope was that in controlling them all, eventually one of his many children would be evolved enough to develop an ability that just may be able to end the zombie threat before it wipes out the rest of humanity.

So, yeah, he is certainly forcing them to be okay with his plan and to bear his children. On the other hand, they likely wouldn't have survived long without him granting them asylum and his by multiplying the evolutionary odds, his plan has a chance of success. And success on that front would save them from extinction, so that's good. I am curious though, what type of mind control story do you think this would be?

If you ever want to check it out, search for A Psychic in a Zombie Apocalypse in the Chyoa website. Thanks for the essay.

If, in the case of accidental mind control, the lead puts right what he/she changed before learning to control the ability, then it would not be an altered personality who decides whether or not to submit once more to MC once freed. Perhaps he or she might decide to ask for it back if the controller isn’t a total douche and ensured pleasure throughout the story. Or, perhaps not. Depends on the controlled character. Point is, if the controlled character is put back the way he/she was before the accidental control, then he/she would be capable of deciding whether or not to go back to it. (I know, that would take a deep knowledge of the character to pull that off and many writers find that too taxing)

Personally, I think a character who decides to submit to the controller of his/her free will, sans any more MC, would be the icing on the cake. (If the MC experience allowed a character to recognize a strong submissive streak and choose to submit with no need for MC, so it’s always his/her CHOICE to submit in the future.)

I disagree with the premise that mind control is erasing a person, while some stories do exactly that those are more the poorly written slap stick ones you decided not to even categorize. For mind control to be the equivalent of erasing a person you'd have to believe a personality is predetermined and completely static, this is simply false ppl change all the time and personalities, wants, and desires are fluid and heavily susceptible to outside influences. For better are for worse ppl are mind controlled all the time by their friends, peers, Jobs, countries, ect. All these things have some level of influence on who they are, what their desires and personality is. Obviously certain ppl like parents or spouses have much stronger and more and prolonged influence over someone else. If you know anyone who's been married you know 10 years later they're not the same, that doesn't mean they've been erased.

That brings us to mind control stories, I believe any story where someone is actively trying change another person's way of thinking, desires, or personality through whatever means is at heart a mind control story. Some are just more realistic than others such as a man making a concerted effort to influence, persuade, or manipulate their wife into being submissive, a hot wife, or otherwise changing her to their liking, ultimately this is MC. Same with stories like blackmailing someone to do things and eroding their values and Inhabitions until they start enjoying said things is also mind control. The more fantasticaly and magical stories you mentioned doesnt make it erasing someone it's simply a more unrealistic and expedited take on the natural process of changing someone, example you talked about guy makes girl his slut stories this is most cases can be done irl just takes a lot longer and much more effort. So no it's not erasing someone it's just an unrealistic and fictional take on the natural process of influencing and changing someone and or their way of thinking.