"Oh sure..I'm into BDSM. What's BDSM?"

Since we have ourselves new digs, I thought it might be a good idea to get on the table what BDSM actually is and what it's not.

For those who have been "into the lifestyle" for a while, you know what a wide net of behaviors BDSM encompasses. For those of you who are just kind of dipping your toe into things (No! That's *not* what I meant!!), you're probably finding just how much is really covered under the umbrella of BDSM.

So I'm going to lob the topic out there and get some responses and do some posting back, too.

I do want to say, though, that BDSM isn't an "all or nothing" kind of thing. Especially for the new, BDSM can be an awfully daunting thing as more and more is revealed. You might get the thought that you may like one or two things, but not a few others. Don't let is get to you. It's like that for everyone. As this thread gets bigger, there's going to be all sorts of stuff that newer folks have never heard before, and more than likely, a few things that even the most experienced here have rarely seen.

So let's get going easily. What doers BDSM actually stand for? Well, BDSM is such a neat lifetsyle that it manages to incorporate five words in only four letters!

Bondage - This is were you get tied up. Cuffs, Restrants, Straps, Sawhorses, Eyebolts on the Walls, Chains, Blindfolds, Elaborate Knots and Rope Tricks - you name it, it's here! Often this is used in conjunction with one of the others below, but many folks do enjoy Bondage without D/s or S&M
Dominance and Submission (D/s) - This involves the exchange of power - of one person ceding some level of control to another or one person submitting to the commands of another. It can often involve Bondage, but doesn't have to. Pain-play can also be involved, but, again, it doesn't have to.
Sadism and Masochism (S&M) - This is, IMO, less about pain itself but about strong sensations, giving them and receiving them. Oftentimes S&M involes sensations which are not at all painful, such as tickling, ice play, and the like. It's worthwhile to note that the S&M used here is not the psychological definition of the words.

In BDSM, folks are generally divided into three groups:

Tops - These are the givers. In D/s, Tops are also usually called Dominants (Doms for short if male, Dommes if female).
Bottoms - These are the receivers. In D/s, Bottoms are also usually called Submissives (or Subs, for short).
Switches - Switches are folks who enjoy being either the Top or Bottom. Generally a person is always a Top or always a Bottom, but not these folks. Oftentimes their state at the time depends on their partner and their current state of time. I know of several women who are entirely Subs when among Doms and Dommes, but are Dommes themselves when with a Sub. Being a Dom myself, I can't fathom what makes a Switch switch, but I do find it really interesting. Check the very cool thread on Switches for more in-depth information.

So that's a start. Let's get some more information out there.

humiliation is a part of some BDSM play. I'm not sure which category it fits under.

perky_baby said:

humiliation is a part of some BDSM play. I'm not sure which category it fits under.

Click to expand...

Just guessin' here, but I guess it's D/S.

i would think that humiliation would fit more into the S&M aspect of the lifestyle. it would tend to be some very strong sensations, though internal instead of external and D/s is not necessarily about that way.

Magister and i have a D/s relationship. He is a dom and i am a sub (slave). He commands and i obey. He has never used humiliation and has never had to. He leads me with punishment, rewards and stern command. i know His limits and what happens if i cross them. He does not need to nor want to break me down into a shell and have that shell serve Him which is what humiliation often does to a sub.


Oh, and JMJ. i love the pic. such a very cute little one. it is a lovely thought.

geri said:

i would think that humiliation would fit more into the S&M aspect of the lifestyle. it would tend to be some very strong sensations, though internal instead of external and D/s is not necessarily about that way.

Click to expand...

You could probably fairly argue both sides and be convincing about it. Some get extreme sensation from humiliation, both as giver and receiver, but for an awful lot of folks, it's a matter of power and control.

Thanks jim

U answered some questions for me.

How about some discussion concerning the difference between

sub and slave

Dom/me and Master/Madame or Mistress?


Not all subs are slaves or vice versa.

And the same holds true, that all Doms are not Masters etc.

I am all ears

~breaks out notebook~

I am an academic. What can I say?

plus I just got stoned. heh.

MissTaken said:

How about some discussion concerning the difference between

sub and slave

Dom/me and Master/Madame or Mistress?


Not all subs are slaves or vice versa.

And the same holds true, that all Doms are not Masters etc.

Click to expand...

this is very true. i am a slave and Magister a Master. compared to Dom/sub. i think it has to do with the degree of your Dominance/servitude. i found a very good site that gave a definition of the two and i have since lost the site but basically it said that the degree was the important difference between the two.

for example those wanting to limit their exploration of BDSM would be considered Dom/sub whereas someone commited to a 24/7 relationship would be considered more Master/slave.

I think I am a dom/sub switcher

I was telling someone else that as a total newbie with BDSM as a "school" or sub-culture, I have a shallow perception of the idiom, which is more than a mere lexicon. There are some fantastic weaves of thought here that intertwine and separate, disappear and re-emerge and all coalesce into a whole. Each person is many stranded.

The more I read about it and reflect on myself and my sexual behavior and thought, I am realizing that I have always had this emotionally and physically. And mental.

It is like I am a vase and your thoughts, ideas, and opinions are filling a vessel. This doesn't necessarily mean that I do not have my own unique opinions or perspective.

JazzManJim said:

Since we have ourselves new digs, I thought it might be a good idea to get on the table what BDSM actually is and what it's not.

For those who have been "into the lifestyle" for a while, you know what a wide net of behaviors BDSM encompasses. For those of you who are just kind of dipping your toe into things (No! That's *not* what I meant!!), you're probably finding just how much is really covered under the umbrella of BDSM.

So I'm going to lob the topic out there and get some responses and do some posting back, too.

I do want to say, though, that BDSM isn't an "all or nothing" kind of thing. Especially for the new, BDSM can be an awfully daunting thing as more and more is revealed. You might get the thought that you may like one or two things, but not a few others. Don't let is get to you. It's like that for everyone. As this thread gets bigger, there's going to be all sorts of stuff that newer folks have never heard before, and more than likely, a few things that even the most experienced here have rarely seen.

So let's get going easily. What doers BDSM actually stand for? Well, BDSM is such a neat lifetsyle that it manages to incorporate five words in only four letters!

Bondage - This is were you get tied up. Cuffs, Restrants, Straps, Sawhorses, Eyebolts on the Walls, Chains, Blindfolds, Elaborate Knots and Rope Tricks - you name it, it's here! Often this is used in conjunction with one of the others below, but many folks do enjoy Bondage without D/s or S&M
Dominance and Submission (D/s) - This involves the exchange of power - of one person ceding some level of control to another or one person submitting to the commands of another. It can often involve Bondage, but doesn't have to. Pain-play can also be involved, but, again, it doesn't have to.
Sadism and Masochism (S&M) - This is, IMO, less about pain itself but about strong sensations, giving them and receiving them. Oftentimes S&M involes sensations which are not at all painful, such as tickling, ice play, and the like. It's worthwhile to note that the S&M used here is not the psychological definition of the words.

In BDSM, folks are generally divided into three groups:

Tops - These are the givers. In D/s, Tops are also usually called Dominants (Doms for short if male, Dommes if female).
Bottoms - These are the receivers. In D/s, Bottoms are also usually called Submissives (or Subs, for short).
Switches - Switches are folks who enjoy being either the Top or Bottom. Generally a person is always a Top or always a Bottom, but not these folks. Oftentimes their state at the time depends on their partner and their current state of time. I know of several women who are entirely Subs when among Doms and Dommes, but are Dommes themselves when with a Sub. Being a Dom myself, I can't fathom what makes a Switch switch, but I do find it really interesting. Check the very cool thread on Switches for more in-depth information.

So that's a start. Let's get some more information out there.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm, I do not consider myself a Top. The terms Top and Bottom originated from the Leather community, and without bogging down my reply with a lot of history, I identify with the term female dominant or Domme. This is my opinion, so no flaming please. YMMV (YOur mileage may vary)

Ebony

I think Ebony makes a really good point, which is that while the terms are fairly well recognized, word definitions are even more shifting than is already typical of language. Sex and sexuality are such a deeply personal thing that people strongly identify with particular language, even though they don't all define the words in the same way or identify with them for the same reasons.

This certainly informs the definition of Master/slave, for example, two words which already carry complex meanings, outside of sex. Going back to an earier point, I think it also informs how people define the use of humiliation.

Some say humiliation is attributed to D/s, because it may be an expression of mental dominance, for example.

Others say humiliation is more attached to B/D, as it's very useful as a disciplinary tactic, especially in a bondage scene, in the place of a sensation-based punishment.

Still others would say it's S/M, as it reflects the philosophies of DeSade and Masoch, that it is a kind of simultaneous psychological tease and torture. It may seem cruel to others, but both players receive what they need from the scene.

So, here's the thing about definitions: Let's kick them around and get the conversation going, but let's also not be married to our definitions, okay?

RisiaSkye said:

So, here's the thing about definitions: Let's kick them around and get the conversation going, but let's also not be married to our definitions, okay?

Click to expand...

You make a great point, RS...

While definitions are important as a way of identifing where one might fit into the scheme of things, I, too, think it is important to not be tied down to the definitions...

For me, as a sub, I found that I needed some help defining what I was looking for in a Dom... and somehow, along the way I found the Castle Realm site. It has a lot of good information, so I am passing that along here... I know Wizard has posted it on his links thread, too.

http://castlerealm.com/subspace/subspace.htm

They have imformation for Dom/mes as well...

RisiaSkye said:

I think Ebony makes a really good point, which is that while the terms are fairly well recognized, word definitions are even more shifting than is already typical of language. Sex and sexuality are such a deeply personal thing that people strongly identify with particular language, even though they don't all define the words in the same way or identify with them for the same reasons.

So, here's the thing about definitions: Let's kick them around and get the conversation going, but let's also not be married to our definitions, okay?

Click to expand...

I agree. I put out there what the "commonly-held" definitions of the word are. Of course, there will always be exceptions and folks who consider the defintions differently.

I have always found the definitions helpful and they helped me survive as a newbie in the world of BDSM. Without some idea of the terms being bandied about, new folks will get lost and will get discouraged. I've seen in happen a lot.

So, while I'm not at all saying that these definitions are cast in stone, I'm saying that definitions are good. They give us a pretty solid baseline from which to continue the exploration. We all just have to remember, as has been pointed out before, that there will always be some fluidity to those definitions. They're not presice and probably never will be.

JazzManJim said:

Tops - These are the givers. In D/s, Tops are also usually called Dominants (Doms for short if male, Dommes if female).
Bottoms - These are the receivers. In D/s, Bottoms are also usually called Submissives (or Subs, for short).
Switches - Switches are folks who enjoy being either the Top or Bottom.

Click to expand...

I am actually familiar with these terms thanks to " Queer as Folk " at least I am learning some thing out of the show.

Interesting ....

MissTaken said:

How about some discussion concerning the difference between

sub and slave

Dom/me and Master/Madame or Mistress?


Not all subs are slaves or vice versa.

And the same holds true, that all Doms are not Masters etc.

Click to expand...

This topic gets folks all riled up! I was on one list that debated this one for over 6 months..LOL

My subs who belong to me call me Mistress.

Subs who I am considering or are mentoring call me Ma'am.

When I get my slave, he will calle me whatever I decide I want to be called, and quite frankly, I will not know what that is until he is chosen.

As for definitions, each of the websites have similar ones to use. To me, it is all good.

I belong to several lists and I used to belong to a huge BDSM group in WA state, and they had differing definitions.

Some people use sub/slave interchangably. SOme make a distinction. I personally could care less. LOL

Ebony

I am beginning to develop my own personal theory about this.

I haven't spent the time to articulate it, but it is symbolized, stylized, ritualized expression of various individual sexual attributes.

Like an artform. Artists are given to create art. They study art, they learn traditions, and more, they add to their own art as a part of the discourse. The exciting part intellectually is the fact that each has their own perspective that becomes a part of the tradition.

I see little difference with the topic of BSDM. Sorry if I sound like an academic, I am one. In no way am I discounting the experience.

I think

JazzManJim said:

I agree. I put out there what the "commonly-held" definitions of the word are. Of course, there will always be exceptions and folks who consider the defintions differently.

I have always found the definitions helpful and they helped me survive as a newbie in the world of BDSM. Without some idea of the terms being bandied about, new folks will get lost and will get discouraged. I've seen in happen a lot.

So, while I'm not at all saying that these definitions are cast in stone, I'm saying that definitions are good. They give us a pretty solid baseline from which to continue the exploration. We all just have to remember, as has been pointed out before, that there will always be some fluidity to those definitions. They're not presice and probably never will be.

Click to expand...

I will stay on the side lines for a bit.........and see how this shakes out for you Jazzman

The Breast Man.....just learning

Re: I am beginning to develop my own personal theory about this.

riff said:

I haven't spent the time to articulate it, but it is symbolized, stylized, ritualized expression of various individual sexual attributes.

Like an artform. Artists are given to create art. They study art, they learn traditions, and more, they add to their own art as a part of the discourse. The exciting part intellectually is the fact that each has their own perspective that becomes a part of the tradition.

I see little difference with the topic of BSDM. Sorry if I sound like an academic, I am one. In no way am I discounting the experience.

Click to expand...

No need to apologize.

I couldn't agree with you more. Terminology, ideologies, general practices and traditions are the framework, the pallette, if you will.

How we mix the colors, and create the a Masterpiece (pun intended) varies from one to the other. Unlike that masterpiece hanging in the Louvre, ours are never finished. Our journey never complete.

Fascinating conversation.

Like others, i've never identified with the terms "Top" or "Bottom" with respect to partners or myself. I've always been sub or slave, they've always been Dom/me.

But words are so subjective, especially these kinds of words, and so subject to individual history and the surroundings in which one learned to "do" this kind of sexuality. Some of us see the differing words as label that indicate of how in-depth one wants to take their exploration of the lifestyle. Some of us object to one or more of the words on principle ("slave", for instance). Some of us don't care one way or the other.

All of us, though, only need to insure the people with whom we are using the various words understand our meaning. Beyond that, if we use one of them here, for example, we have to be sure everyone else understands what we mean if we're using a word that possesses various shadings of meaning within the larger BDSM community.

There's never gonna be complete agreement on this kinda debate over semantic cuz we're far too disparate and individualistic as a population of people to allow that to happen.

Personally, i'm a masosub. I've been, and could be again, a slave to the right Dom/me. The difference in my mind, in my life, has always had everything to do with the depth of my committment to that individual Dominant.

info

thanks so much Jim, i had some questions about all of this
this gave me some more questions to ask!
ahhh the reading i have yet to do
i am so looking forward to turning 30 this year--maybe i'll soon learn and teach others to enjoy this darker side of erotic pleasure.

i am with riff, i had to paste some notes for later

MissTaken said:

How about some discussion concerning the difference between

sub and slave

Dom/me and Master/Madame or Mistress?


Not all subs are slaves or vice versa.

And the same holds true, that all Doms are not Masters etc.

Click to expand...

This is a very interesting topic. I'm a sub and I love bondage, but I don't think of myself as a slave. For me the distinction lies in the type of role I like to play. Slave fantasies have never turned me on, probably because the word "slave" has too many negative connotations for me. Captor/captive or interrogation fantasies, on the other hand, are my very favorite kind. Those types of scenarios allow me to fully explore my submissiveness.

I'd love to see more discussion on this topic. Any other non-slave subs out there?

I have at different times used both slave and submissive, and sometimes used them interchangably. So I've given this a bit of thought.
My take on it is that slave is a word that describes a person in relation to another, while submissive describes an inherent quality in the person themselves. A submissive who does not have a dominant is still a submissive, but there is no such thing as an unowned slave.
Back in my younger days I spent over a year as "houseboy" to a gay male couple. I was submissive in my relationship to them, and I was in practical terms their slave to do with as they wished. When that relationship ended, I was still a submissive, but no longer a slave.
That's just my way of seeing it. I hear and read so many different takes on this issue, that the only proper response I can muster is to respect whatever manner and terms each person uses to define themselves.

Hi everyone

I have never entered a bdsm relationship, but am an interested (and slightly confused) reader of bdsm erotica.

I have a question - and I don't mean to disrupt the discussion of Bottom/Slave/Sub, Top/Dom/me/Master/Mistress, but I am anyway..

I have read bondage stories where the Top tells the Bottom a "safe word" or signal.

I guess "No, No!" or "Stop!" is inappropriate when deep in a scene and there has to be a last ditch mercy trigger. Why don't the stories ever give a specific word? What signal could be noticable if the bottom is bound unable to move and gagged? A toe wiggle??

I'm thinking each partnership has its own code but so far I havn't seen anyone hint at what their own may be.. Why the secrecy of the mercy trigger?


- Just an innocent bystander

Re: Hi everyone

Firesprite said:

I have never entered a bdsm relationship, but am an interested (and slightly confused) reader of bdsm erotica.

I have a question - and I don't mean to disrupt the discussion of Bottom/Slave/Sub, Top/Dom/me/Master/Mistress, but I am anyway..

I have read bondage stories where the Top tells the Bottom a "safe word" or signal.

I guess "No, No!" or "Stop!" is inappropriate when deep in a scene and there has to be a last ditch mercy trigger. Why don't the stories ever give a specific word? What signal could be noticable if the bottom is bound unable to move and gagged? A toe wiggle??

I'm thinking each partnership has its own code but so far I havn't seen anyone hint at what their own may be.. Why the secrecy of the mercy trigger?


- Just an innocent bystander

Click to expand...

Welcome Firesprite....

A safe word is generally given by the Dom/me/Master/Top to their sub/slave/bottom during play to be used if things go beyond what the sub/slave/bottom can deal with. Mine was given to me by Himself, my Dom, the very first time we were together, and while I have never had to use it, I always remember that I have it.

If a sub is bound and gagged or otherwise unable to articulate their safe word, there is generally an agreed upon signal for a safe word. It can be a handkerchief held in the hand and dropped if necessary or and hand signal, but this is almost always agreed upon before hand.

The safe word can be anything. Some use the words "red" or "yellow". It really doesn't matter what word is used. When the safe word is used during play or a scene, everything should stop. It simply means that things have gone too far, or that the sub no longer feels safe, or that a limit has been crossed.

I don't know that there is any secrecy surrounding a safe word and which one should be used. I think people simply choose a word that works for them.

BTW my safe word is "sanctuary".

I hope this answers your questions, Firesprite... and again welcome!