first experiences

We should provide a service to get all these first edition submissives hooked up. (or tied up) I'm single and available, and in the southeast US

But seriously, is it scary looking for your first experience? People have forwarded responses from personal ads to me before. I really don't see that "On your knees bitch" makes a good impression on anyone.

My guess would be that getting involved in a munch group would be a good way to get started.

Hahahahaha..........

"On your knees bitch" Sorry. Had to laugh... On your knees bitch... hahahaha....

I guess maybe I am not a good submissive if I have to stay serious hearing that. Maybe it would be different if it was led up to, but not sure about that. Especially the thought of hearing WriterDom saying it.

Oh, I know, he is a "good" Master, but such a gentle guy. Sorry. Sorry. I apologize. Just such a clice.

Do people really use that phrase???

Thank you WD, for starting this thread, and as cym said in another thread, what timing... i met a Dom in bondage.com that lives somewhat close to me, and he wants to get together for coffee, or a beer to get to know each other.... my problem is, that if things go well, and we get along well, he has made it very clear that he would like the next meeting to be a play session... i am a novice in BDSM... no r/t experience, only facts and opinions swirling around in my head... i'm very nervous, can someone please help??? Thank You in advance... take care, sierra

btw.... he has said that anything and everything that would happen during the session would be agreed upon beforehand, and that nothing would happen that i had not agreed to.. but still a little nerve wracking, being my first time and all....

Do they?

Merelan said:

Hahahahaha..........

"On your knees bitch" Sorry. Had to laugh... On your knees bitch... hahahaha....

Do people really use that phrase???

Click to expand...

Well to many "Doms" use it and use it much to early in the development of a relationship.

IMHO there is a difference in a Dom and Sub getting together for some play and getting together to try and build a relationship.

When people get together "just" for play .... or even training .... than they may objectify each other. However realtionships are about meeting as "persons" .... if you will ...a meeting of mind,spirit and body......

These "Doms" that do not seem to recognize that a Sub is a person......just grate my ass.....oooops did I say that?

Richard
Dom in Michigan

SierraMoon..i can relate to that

Even worse situation here, in Minnesota, way up North. i think the average population density of people in the lifestyle is around 2 per 50 miles squared.

Compound that with my novice-ness, the fact that i'm 50, and my sexual "skills" are a dim memory.

At least you've got a date!(and i wish you a wonderful time)

Just over a week ago i found and joined the minnesotabdsmclub at Yahoo! After 3 days it "migrated" to Yahoo Groups, never to be seen again. Yet.

<pout>It's really frustrating to find something you really want after all these years, only to find out "Offer not Good in Minnesota".

There are munches once a month 60 miles from me, and very soon i hope to get to one. But i'm afraid that the chances of finding a "playmate" are rather small.

If i collect enough clues and meet enough people i believe my chances will improve.

Pray for me...
and Bless all of you at BDSM talk for opening my eyes to new possibilities.

I realize I shouldn't have laughed, but it just struck me as funny.

Sierra, if he is pushing you to make the next meeting as a "session" then forget it. He is only thinking of himself, not of your fears or nervousness. Of course no matter when, and if it happens, you will be nervous. But it seems to me he is only after a plaything. If he isn't taking your first time nerves into consideration, what else will he ignore? bells are ringing in my head.....

Merelan said:

I realize I shouldn't have laughed, but it just struck me as funny.

Sierra, if he is pushing you to make the next meeting as a "session" then forget it. He is only thinking of himself, not of your fears or nervousness. Of course no matter when, and if it happens, you will be nervous. But it seems to me he is only after a plaything. If he isn't taking your first time nerves into consideration, what else will he ignore? bells are ringing in my head.....

Click to expand...

Thank you for your insight Merelan... yes, i agree with you.. warning bells also went off in my head. I remarked that i wasn't sure if i was ready for play yet, and he replied that i had read a couple books, and was searching the net for months, and that now what i needed was "hands on" experience... pardon the pun... what do you guys think? I value your opinions more than you will ever know... ty... sierra

SierraMoon said:

Thank you for your insight Merelan... yes, i agree with you.. warning bells also went off in my head. I remarked that i wasn't sure if i was ready for play yet, and he replied that i had read a couple books, and was searching the net for months, and that now what i needed was "hands on" experience... pardon the pun... what do you guys think? I value your opinions more than you will ever know... ty... sierra

Click to expand...

I've always been one to think of those little "warning bells" as being potential life-savers. If you do not feel comfortable, it doens't matter how many Doms are telling you that you need now need "hands on" experience. Obviously, either the time is not right, or it is not the right person.

I was fortunate. I more or less stumbled into my first experience/relationship. Both of us had known each other for quite some time, and we simply began to explore. We already knew each other's limitations and how far to push before going too far. But, now I see how lucky I was.

I've met a number of men in the past few months - some claim to be Dom, others claim they want to know more about the lifestyle. I think it's important, at least for the first couple of meetings, to sort of absent your emotions from the situation. Really look at the other person, ask lots of questions, and take into account how they treat you and what they say to you.

For example. I met a man who admitted he had never been involved in the lifestyle. He asked if I would help him learn. Yeah. A sub teach a Dom? He didn't get the irony of that, first of all. Then we discussed things that were off limits. He was agreeing with all that I said - until I mentioned beastiality. It's an absolute "no" for me. Period. End of story. He quickly grabbed my hands and started telling me that maybe it was something I shouldn't write off so soon, and if I could put that in the "maybe" pile. Right then, I knew this guy wasn't going to work for me. He has no idea of how to respect limits that I've already set in stone.

A lot of men who are not "true" Doms feel they need to be controlling and domineering to fit the picture. That isn't so. I've found most Doms to be good listeners, and men who pick up on little things, even things that aren't specifically stated.

If a man pushes you to try something you don't feel you are ready for, especially in an area that involves absolute trust, run! Some one else will come along who you are better suited to be with, IMO.

SierraMoon said:

i met a Dom in bondage.com that lives somewhat close to me, and he wants to get together for coffee, or a beer to get to know each other.... my problem is, that if things go well, and we get along well, he has made it very clear that he would like the next meeting to be a play session... i am a novice in BDSM... no r/t experience, only facts and opinions swirling around in my head... i'm very nervous, can someone please help??? Thank You in advance... take care

Click to expand...

Darlin', what a wonderful opportunity you're opening yourself up to!

So, hypothetically speaking, a play session that i would have with a new-to-me Dominant isn't the same one you would have, right? In like manner, a play session you would have with your very first Dominant isn't the same one you will have with your fifth Dominant, is it?

IF you meet for coffee/a beer and IF you both like each other and IF YOU decided that you're ready for a bit of hands-on stuff for the next meeting THEN you should do it with that Dominant.

The submissive controls the play.

Read that again, darlin', out loud: You, the submissive, controls the play.

It's a total fallacy that your Dominant has all the control over what you do together. All of the control is in the hands of the submissive all the time. (I know, i know, i know - there are "no limits/safe words" relationships but we're not talking about those here, okay? This is all about the basics. For now.)

You are the one with the safe/slow word. you have the right to use it at any time and any Dominant worth the name will immediately and without ANY kinda pouting stop or slow down according to your needs.

You, the submissive, is the one who says "we cannot do any piercing, no caning, no sexual intercourse, no biting, and i don't like crops much, either". The Dominant listens and, if your limits match what s/he needs, continues to get to know you.

You control the play.

This Dominant wants to meet for coffee/a beer - then if all goes well, wants to scene.

You are unsure.

Ask yourself WHAT is making you unsure.
Is it that you fear you'll have no control?
Is it that you think you'll have to do whatever he wants?
Is it fear of pain, of loss of control, of the unkmnown?

Determine what it is you fear and then arrange the play so that you don't have to rub up against that thing you fear.

Do one of the extensive needs/wants/desires checklists before you go to meet him - and ask him to do one, too. Be prepared to talk honestly and openly about the very explicit things on such a checklist with him when you meet. If you can't say the words to his face, you shouldn't even think about letting him do them to your body. (This is a really good site for extremely thorough checklists and please note there are several varieties to choose from: http://www.ds-haven.com/choosechecklist.html)

Your job, especially as a new submissive, is to maintain control of the play so that you don't get scared.

As you come to trust your Dominant more and more, you'll relinquish some of that control over the physical sensations you're feeling and begin to offer him emotional control, too. (THAT'S where it really gets scary, btw.)

All that said, if you're not ready to play, don't do it.
Just don't.
Don't feel bad.
Don't feel like you have to apologize.
State your frame of mind from a place of strength inside your submissive soul and speak your truth quietly but with sureness: i am not ready to play. i am afraid of the conflict in my heart and mind and body about this and i ask for more time to get to know you and more time to sort out my needs.

Someone who just wants a kinky fuck will say no, you can't have more time - put up or shut up.

Someone who is sincerely interested in coming to know you as a person, a woman, and a submissive will graciously agree - though he might ask for some small beginnings toward play, small assignments, for instance, of fantasy writing or for you to wear particular apparel at your next meeting. Such is okay, don't you think? He's investing in you, after all, just as you're investing in him.

What occurs, always, is the development of a human relationship BEFORE it's BDSM. If there's nothing of value between you as people then there won't be much there between you as Dominant and submissive, either.

Whew!
Ask a simple question... get an encyclopedia in answer!

Thank you for your reply Sexychele... yes, i hear what you are saying, and truly believe you are right.. when he said second meeting would be play, i immediately told him i wasn't ready for that... that's when he brought up the crap about the reading, and needing hands on experience... Luckily, i've had enough brains to not meet him in person as of yet... think it will be highly unlikely that i will.... he seems to be a nice enough guy... but, i think i will keep him as an online friend only. Thanks again for your reply.. it is MUCH appreciated... sierra

Re: SierraMoon..i can relate to that

Merelan said:

"On your knees bitch" Sorry. Had to laugh... On your knees bitch... hahahaha....
<snip>
Do people really use that phrase???

Click to expand...

Only, i assure you, in the heat of play where and when it's sometimes really exciting.

Maybe on occasion for punishment/discipline purposes.

Never ever, at least not in my experience, with subs they don't know well and with whom they have an already-existing intimate relationship.

Well.
Yeh.
You're right.
Chat-room Dom/mes use it all the time.
(I wonder if it works out for them? It must, hmm? Jeeze. Weird. Weird and unsettling.)

DRxBlue said:

Compound that with my novice-ness, the fact that i'm 50, and my sexual "skills" are a dim memory.
<snip>
There are munches once a month 60 miles from me, and very soon i hope to get to one. But i'm afraid that the chances of finding a "playmate" are rather small.
<snip>
If i collect enough clues and meet enough people i believe my chances will improve.

Click to expand...

Blue, if you-in-person is anything like you-here, your 60 mile distant munch group is getting a hell of a deal on you!

We all are continually working on improving our life skills, darlin', as you already know, sexual skills among them. You could almost advertise as a virgin...ooooh! Thast might make you more marketable!

We all get to a place with this where we've done the reading and talked to the people who are out there doing it and now we're READY, by the gods, to do some ourselves. We get impatient. We tend to disregard or smudge our partner selection criteria or standards or (oh no! no no no no no!) safety issues in our haste to be touched, to put action to the fantasies burning holes in our brains and making us sweat in our sleep.

It'll come.
Take it easy.
Even in largely unpopulated areas, there *are* kinky people around and though you may have to travel farther to get to them, you'll find each other eventually.

Like calls to like. Remember your worth as you continue learning and begin to search amid the chaff for that just-right partner.

You'll be fine, Blue. I don't think i'm the only one here awaiting the report of your first play, however distant is that day, with asome anticipation. I'm positive it'll be memorable - for all of us.

Ok, here goes.. i posted the last reply before i saw cymbidia's post...

The ultimate thing that scares me is not knowing this man well enough yet.. Get this.. we just met online yesterday..... and he was pushing for me to come over there THEN.... i put him off, of course... i have been conversing with a Master for over 3 months, and i believe he and i have formed a trust... but he is wanting to take it all very slowly (which i am grateful for). So, when this Dom sends me an email, wants to get to know me, GREAT... BUT, i am not at all ready to just jump into a scene with him, and not knowing practically anything about him... i was just wondering by my question, if i am being a "prude" by not accepting his invitation to play.... as i said, i just met him yesterday, and the play would be at his apt.... that's where i'm scared.... safe words are great and all, but what if he doesn't abide by them? There is no way of knowing beforehand, what kind of trouble i may be letting myself in for.
I am not afraid of the pain aspect, or what may or may not be used on me... to be honest... if it were the Master that i've been getting to know, telling me the next time we meet, we are going to play, i would be ALL for it... but it's not.. it's someone that i do not know, and would be on his "turf".... (taking a breath) lol....
cym, i appreciate your reply, very much... and looks like you took my virginity!!!! Now, i feel VERY honored... and you are absolutely right, i need to follow my instincts, and not be "bullied" into something i'm not ready for.. thanks again..... sierra

SierraMoon said:

when he said second meeting would be play, i immediately told him i wasn't ready for that... that's when he brought up the crap about the reading, and needing hands on experience... Luckily, i've had enough brains to not meet him in person as of yet... think it will be highly unlikely that i will.... he seems to be a nice enough guy... but, i think i will keep him as an online friend only.

Click to expand...

You must do as your heart and brain decree, sierra, of course.

I want to offer a small caution to you, though: sometimes people who are just coming to this are afraid to take the step that will transform this from a thing in thier mind to a thing of thier body.

Sometimes they are afraid to play with another person, to take the step from the hypothetical to the physical.

Fear is a godd thing if it keeps us from harm.
It's a prison, though, if it keeps us from living.

Be certain that you aren't using your fear as a reson not to take that last scary step, darlin'.

If you are not ready, do not do it. <--- bottom line

However, if you wish the raltionship to go forward to a place that might, at some point, include the play you're pasing on now, please tell him why you're saying no to this.

Be very clear.
Do not be unkind.
Use words, lots of words.
Suggest an alternative activity, like cruising a local sex toys store, for example, and discussing the stuff in there together. I promise you that the store clerks have seen it ALL - and long before you came int thier store. Besides, it's about you and him, not you and him and the store clerk.

If, however, he makes you uncomfy, then pass it by, both him and the opportunity to play.

But don't, i beg of you, use your inexperience to mask a fear of this kind of play.

Use your inesperience to find the right partner to teach you - and then step out into the world of our kind of sexuality and sensation stronger for making that choice.

In a consensual BDSM situation, you control the touching.
If you know that to the core of your soul, you'll be fine no matter what choices you make along the way.

please totally ignore EVERYTHING i've posted to you so far about this

SierraMoon said:

we just met online yesterday..... and he was pushing for me to come over there THEN
<snip>
BUT, i am not at all ready to just jump into a scene with him, and not knowing practically anything about him... i was just wondering by my question, if i am being a "prude" by not accepting his invitation to play.... as i said, i just met him yesterday, and the play would be at his apt.... that's where i'm scared.... safe words are great and all, but what if he doesn't abide by them? There is no way of knowing beforehand, what kind of trouble i may be letting myself in for.

Click to expand...

Please listen:

If you've just met a Dominant - and online to boot
~and~
he knows you're completely new to this
~and~
he's pushing you to come play NOW
~then~
in my book, he's a pretender.

No self-respecting Dominant worth the spit it takes to say the word aloud would think of pushing someone like you into playing now.

He's probably just in it it for the kinky sex. There are many such "Masters" out there who look for women exactly like you, sierra, to grab and use and then discard.

That is NOT the way it's done in real BDSM relationships.
That's the opposite of what we want from our partners.

That's it.

Bottom line.

Over and done.

Go tell your three-month Master about this and see what he says.






I'm fucking outraged right now.

ty again cym (is it ok that i call you that?) for your reply... your words are always so heartwarming, and accurate. You know how to dig to the root of the problem, and make someone truly question their motives for doing/not doing something.
Yes, of course, there is a part of me that is scared of moving to the physical side of this lifestyle that i have only been reading and talking about. BUT, it WILL NOT keep me from allowing myself the ultimate gratification of moving on... i want and need this in my life, and will have it, but i want to make sure that my first experience does not ruin my expectations, by moving into something that i'm not ready for....

I just read your last post to me cymbidia, after i wrote the first paragraph, and i'm truly sorry if i upset you in some way.. was not my intention. I am going to talk to the Master whom i've been chatting with for 3 months about this, and get his input on it.. i trust and value his opinion very much. By his willingness to take things slowly, even when i wanted to "jump right in", he has proven to me that he is trustworthy. As i said, something about this other "Dom" has made me uncomfortable, and in my inexperience, i wasn't sure if i was in the right by being cautious... you have all proven to me that my first instinct was correct, and i thank you all for it!!! You are truly a bunch of beautiful, wonderful people that i am lucky to have access to.
And again, cymbidia, if i upset you in any way, please accept my apologies... take care sierra

Re: please totally ignore EVERYTHING i've posted to you so far about this

cymbidia said:

Please listen:

If you've just met a Dominant - and online to boot
~and~
he knows you're completely new to this
~and~
he's pushing you to come play NOW
~then~
in my book, he's a pretender.

No self-respecting Dominant worth the spit it takes to say the word aloud would think of pushing someone like you into playing now.

He's probably just in it it for the kinky sex. There are many such "Masters" out there who look for women exactly like you, sierra, to grab and use and then discard.

That is NOT the way it's done in real BDSM relationships.
That's the opposite of what we want from our partners.

That's it.

Bottom line.

Over and done.

Go tell your three-month Master about this and see what he says.



I'm fucking outraged right now.

Click to expand...

Man, took the words right outta my mouth! You ROCK, cym!

cym

cym

Your posts to this thread are excellent !!!!!

Richard

No, sierra, you haven't upset me.
That pretender Dom has upset me.

It's people like him who give BDSM a bad name, black eyes, and contribute to the social stigma we all still have to face everyday with regard to the expression of our sexuality.

He's a player, sierra, and i despair that there are so many of them calling themselves Master X and Mistress Z and trying hard to fuck - and fuck over - people like you who are honest seekers but may not yet have the experience to recognize these predators for who and what they are.

THAT pisses me off.

Not you.

You're one of us.

cymbidia, ty ty again for your kind words.... i feel i have found a 'home away from home' here at Lit... and consider each and every one of the posters to be a friend. Everyone has helped me so very much, in my struggle to find myself, and find what is right and what is wrong. In my quest to be submissive, i fear i have made some errors, which i am learning from. All the people here at Lit are terrific, because us novices (i'm beginning to like that word.. rather than "newbies") are forgiven our transgressions, and still welcomed into the BDSM fold. What a very unique and blessed group of people. Take care... sierra

Reading through all of this, I'm reminded again how difficult it is to find someone who truly wants a relationship with a real person, one with needs, fears and feelings. That difficulty isn't unique to BDSM relationships, but when you're part of a marginal group, it's even harder to find places to talk about it, to get advice, to share your experiences and give warnings to others.

Once again, I'm made thankful for what I have--a stable relationship, a warm and welcoming forum, and a large number of fellow posters whom I'm honored to call friends.

I wish that I had wisdom to offer in this situation--the transition from 'net to RL. I do not, however, and rather than speculate from my ignorance, I will do what little I can and wish you all well.

For those of you seeking your partner and your skin-to-skin experiences
~~
May your time come, your blessings be many, and the winding path be always full of wonder and the gaining of wisdom.

Sierra..

Reading about your experience with this "Dom" reminded me of exactly what brought me to Lit and the old Mother thread in the first place... I was new to this lifestyle wanting to go from online to real life play when I met someone very like this "Dom" you just met. The one I met refused to send me a photo at first, demanded that I send him my phone number and that we meet the very next day....

As I read through the old thread I came across the posting about predators and realized that was what this man was. I found validation here at Lit and have been here ever since.

I know that uncomfortable feeling, that tightness in the gut... and it saved me... I never met with anyone in person that I felt uncomfortable with from just talking on line. I almost always knew from the way I was approached on line whether I could trust that person or not.

Anyone who pushes you to do something you are not ready for does not have your best interests at heart... and how can you trust someone who asks you to put your self out there with no trust established.

Take care, Sierra, there are a lot of people out there who are not authentic...

Doctor Blue turns into a Bright Rosy Pink...

cymbidia said:

Blue, if you-in-person is anything like you-here, your 60 mile distant munch group is getting a hell of a deal on you!

We all are continually working on improving our life skills, darlin', as you already know, sexual skills among them. You could almost advertise as a virgin...ooooh! That might make you more marketable!

<SNIP>(cool technique cym)<UNSNIP>

Like calls to like. Remember your worth as you continue learning and begin to search amid the chaff for that just-right partner.

You'll be fine, Blue. I don't think i'm the only one here awaiting the report of your first play, however distant is that day, with some anticipation. I'm positive it'll be memorable - for all of us.

Click to expand...

*Laughing and really blushing*

Well...it's a good thing i'm used to being "on stage". i expect i'll feel you all "virtually" breathing down my neck as i continue my explorations.

That will be a GREAT comfort! (and something of a turn on too.)

When i went to sleep this morning, Merelan had just made her first reply to SierraMoon. As i drifted off, i was feeling ashamed of myself for whining about my problems when, as Merelan correctly pointed out, there are much worse things than being alone.

For example being alone with a predator.
<chills...NOT the good kind>

Imagine my relief, then JOY, as i saw you all rallying around one of my fellow newbies and providing such wisdom and support.

They should be teaching this stuff in schools, dammit! and cym...you oughta be given a doctorate!

And here, in front of everybody, i want to say those three little words...straight from my heart

You ROCK, cym! (thanks SexyChele, perfect!)

You really did some fine work in this thread. Welcome to the family, SierraMoon! How do you like the fringe benefits so far?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for me, i feel like i haven't wasted the last month studying the arcane mating habits of an obscure group of social deviants.

i feel as if i've come HOME to a place i've always been, but never seen before.

The line "Like calls to like." is a well known tenet of Magical Metaphysics. i believe that to be true.

If i do find someone with a passion to equal my own, of the opposite charge......i think i might not even hafta post y'all.

That would be a BLAST! A tremor in the Force kinda thing.

So--like if i casually imply that i'm not just a novice, but a reconstituted virgin, that wouldn't necessarily be counter productive, eh?

Well...i've no intention of lying, that's for sure!

Ohh, Toto--There's No Place Like Home.
(music swells...screen fades to)

Blue

Re: Doctor Blue turns into a Bright Rosy Pink...

DRxBlue said:

When i went to sleep this morning, Merelan had just made her first reply to SierraMoon. As i drifted off, i was feeling ashamed of myself for whining about my problems when, as Merelan correctly pointed out, there are much worse things than being alone.

For example being alone with a predator.
<chills...NOT the good kind>

Imagine my relief, then JOY, as i saw you all rallying around one of my fellow newbies and providing such wisdom and support.

They should be teaching this stuff in schools, dammit! and cym...you oughta be given a doctorate!

And here, in front of everybody, i want to say those three little words...straight from my heart

You ROCK, cym! (thanks SexyChele, perfect!)

You really did some fine work in this thread. Welcome to the family, SierraMoon! How do you like the fringe benefits so far?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Ohh, Toto--There's No Place Like Home.
(music swells...screen fades to)

Blue

Click to expand...

ty for the warm welcome blue... and your quote from Wizard of Oz, is soooooo true... as i've said before, i feel i've found my "home away from home" here at Lit... everyone has been so kind, and patient with us novices... and yes, i couldn't have asked for better advice from more worthy people than the ones that responded here. Take Care all.. and btw.. i have put that "Dom" on ignore.... until i can talk to the Master about him.... thanks for the advice!! sierra

Sierra - You have had really good advice so far and I can't really add anything new. I just wanted to add my own comment to the reasons why you should always listen to your warning bells, for the past four years I have worked in a womens centre and the number of cases I have dealt with when a woman (and yes sometimes we would get abused men calling too) had thought that someone was okay only to end up in a situation with a predetor.
If you don't feel comfortable taking the next step in any relationship then you should never allow yourself to get pushed into it. This has to go double in BDSM when there is so much that can be open to abuse whether physical or emotional.

Good luck and I am sure you will make the right deciosn for you!

SierraMoon said:

Thank you WD, for starting this thread, and as cym said in another thread, what timing... i met a Dom in bondage.com that lives somewhat close to me, and he wants to get together for coffee, or a beer to get to know each other.... my problem is, that if things go well, and we get along well, he has made it very clear that he would like the next meeting to be a play session... i am a novice in BDSM... no r/t experience, only facts and opinions swirling around in my head... i'm very nervous, can someone please help??? Thank You in advance... take care, sierra

btw.... he has said that anything and everything that would happen during the session would be agreed upon beforehand, and that nothing would happen that i had not agreed to.. but still a little nerve wracking, being my first time and all....

Click to expand...

A suggestion for you, Sierra, since you live in Michigan is to subscribe to this yahoo group for announcements of munches. That's the best way to meet people in the scene safely.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MichiganMunches/?yguid=1230121