All Comments on 'Loving Loving Wives'

I enjoyed your essay. I might add:

Most intriguing active author: Cagivagurl he/she/they infuriate me from time to time, but I eagerly await their next story. Really, if you don't infuriate people occasionally, are you really trying? This deserves its own essay.

An acronym that I would like to see: RARC - Reconciliation at Reasonable Cost

A cuck category - PLEASE!

So many stories set in Texas. What is going on?

The dichotomy between American writers and the rest of the English-speaking world. The latter group has a whole lot less violence and more empathy toward the antagonist.

Some stories that I absolutely love:

DIG TWO GRAVES by WINTERFOXX: a fabulous five-chapter story by an author that never returned.

Beth's Birthday Pass by TEXXMAN: a three-chapter story that helped me get closure on an old relationship.

CRIMSON INTERVENTION by moreandmore: a happy ending where the children made a decisive intervention.

SHE STOPPED SPEAKING TO ME by dorbb2: an examination of the corrosive effects of communication blackout.

A Special Relationship by RobertaBob: a danged good story with just a little infidelity and sex

5* Thank you for an intelligent, fascinating and insightful analysis of LW. As a slowish writer I found it reassuring (if that makes sense). I like and respect your work and that gives your comments authority.

I must also thank you for mentioning Ohio's "Scenes from a Marriage", arguably the best story on LW - there isn't a wasted word but the whole emotional journey, the whole story is there.

Thank you.

Wonderful article! I like LW stories also. Most of the top 20 LW stories don't have anything with Loving Wives. I like them and probably gave them a 5. I generally give the authors I follow a 5 or 4. I don't like the punitive nature of many of the commenters so if I don't like a story I don't leave a comment or give it a score. There's a lot of good stories in the non-LW categories. Keep on writing.

Dry. Interesting, but dry (I'll finish it later, I promise).

Loving Wives stories can be infuriating. I used to think many had no business being posted here; post in in Fetish! But the most literate stories are posted here! So, if you like good writing you go here first and sift through the crap for the occasional gem (like the author of this essay).

Very illuminating. Thank you. I've only been here a few years, and I don't do the forums, but I do see some of the nasty comments. I actually created this account just so I wouldn't post as "anonymous" anymore.

I forgot to mention petty tyrants. I love to read stories in which petty tyrants get toppled.

This was a great essay. I agree with just about all of it. I started as a LW writer because it had the most comments and I wanted feedback. I found that my more romance-centric LW stories where the wronged husband finding a new love get the best ratings. I started putting those in romance, but I still put some in LW because I know I’ll get twenty times the reads.

Thanks for all of the work you put in this one.

1* cuck shit (because otherwise you'd have been disappointed) ;-)

Heard of lot of your ideas in fragments over at the Authors Hangout but great to have it all put together here in a coherent and probably pretty defintive essay.

Wonderful analysis of the LW section. You made a lot of good points that I, and many other I'm sure, have thought about over the years. That section literally says its a category about extramarital fun, swinging, sharing & more, and yet certain people go in there looking for reasons to let out their issues towards women. This is mostly just fantasy and you, like many other married men who come on this site, enjoy reading these kind of fantasies about wives having some fun, even stories about wives who cheat. I'm sure there are plenty of wives out there who love these stories, but don't cheat on their husbands in real life, they just enjoy the fantasy of it all, just like how their husbands do the same thing.

But unfortunately, we get these commenters, mostly anon comments, ruining the fun, especially for the authors. Like you said, they're not the majority of the LW comments, but they're the most outspoken there. I'm not sure if creating a "cuckolding" section would actually be the answer, it may just encourage more of the same problem; also, a lot of stories among all the sections involves cheating partners in some form, so it kind of doesn't make sense.

That reminds me of those commenters who get upset for not seeing a "cuck" tag at the beginning because they felt they should be warned that it was coming to protect their sensibilities, despite already knowing those are the kind of stories they're more likely to run into when reading in that section.

I feel like there are no right answers on how to deal with those kind of people. But as you say, we should just enjoy the reading those stories, or writing them, and try not to let those comments affect our enjoyment for that section. It could be difficult not to read them because we enjoy seeing what other people say about those stories.

There are other parts of your essay that I'd like to discuss, but this comment already went on long enough, so I'll just end this now. Thanks again for your essay; I've enjoyed your other works and follow you so I can see any new stories you may post, and I'm looking forward to see what else you write.

Love your overview. It is my favorite category.

However, I wish the BTB and "cuck/shit" crowd would go away and give us back what LW used to be. I have been here since 2008, and have seen these changes.

This is an excellent essay. Not just well-written, as everything you do is, but fair, thoughtful, insightful, and, most refreshingly, fact-based. You've done your homework.

My orientation toward LW is exactly the opposite of yours. I have no interest in infidelity drama stories, but I love "hot wife" stories. I am exactly the audience that the category originally was intended for, and for years my views about this category have been biased against what I've seen as the "BTB/Incel" crowd and its apparent takeover of the category. But I think you are right. it's much more subtle than I've given it credit for. I don't use the term "incel" anymore to describe the category's readers because I no longer think it's accurate. I'm going to read some of the stories you linked to.

It's nice to read something once in a while that changes one's mind.

Thanks for this essay. I have to say that I do read most of the comments when I put out a story. All of mine are in this category. The trick is simply not to care about ratings and 'cuck shit' comments. It isn't a contest, after all. Just a hobby. D

Great essay. Touched on a lot of aspects of Loving Wives. I too enjoy this category a lot.

I'd recommend anything from Everyonesavoyeur and bobfr... interracial erotica that is old school in that the husband is generally on-board with extramarital fun and largely respected by the spouse. Of course, there's many other stories. readers should look at each others "favorites" lists more.

Comments and thoughts on Literotica:

-If loving wives is #2 in popularity and Incest/Taboo is #1.... what does that say to us as a society? ha ha

-BTB-esque stories can act as an escape from reading about all the injustices in the real world, not just relationship. From political nonsense to criminals getting away with it. A good BTB story can leave you feeling "justice can be served" or "Karma is alive and well"

Literotica improvements

-I think categories should be eliminated and replaced exclusively by tags. "force" authors to select a minimum number of tags and create a better form to assist authors properly tag their stories. (look at the Category Search link at StoriesOnline for a hint at the direction literotica should take with that)

-Note that when tags were added, the site administrators over-rode the moderators wish to manually add tags and went with some shitty algorithm... so tags are broken for older stories because of that. Authors generally do a poor job of tagging their own works too.

-improve the tag search page so readers can "and"/"or" their tag selections (with logic brackets), add story length as a filter option, allow multiple categories instead of just one, and keep the sort order options the same (date, score, most favorited, views). All of these changes to improve discoverability of stories and authors.

-Dust off and improve the mobile app.

-eliminate anonymous comments and voting. If a reader is "brave enough" to act like a "1*" asshole, be brave enough to do it under their account name.

-attach the user's star rating of the story alongside any comments of it. Maybe "Amazon" it and allow us to see a graph of that story's rating and drill down to look at only 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 star reviews.

Very, very inciteful. Great essay.

I tend to post in this category too. As for the scoring system, one star or five makes no deference to me if I am perfectly honest. It did when I first posted here but now, who cares.

What matters to me is the comments, I want constructive ones, good/bad it does not matter which. If i get derogatory ones directed just at me and not the story, then they just get deleted.

I agree with Mr. Ic69hunter as in that this category has changed so much in recent years, not for the better. Far too many BTB brigade.

Keep up the good work my friend.

Or insightful, take you pick.

I have over 60 stories noted as being great (for more BTB type of stories) and will only point towards authors instead with some notable stories highlighted.

BH54 (Wife Burns Herself)

Bh76 (Never Enough, Nothing to Lose, Reason to Live, Then She Kissed Me)

BillandKate ('Goode' Neighbors)

Cagivagurl (Miranda)

Chimney Sweep (Cheating Wife, but So Much FIXED!, The Wrong Bag)

chymera (Biloxi Doxy has stuck with me, want wife's salvation as she's so victimized)

CindyTV (Daddy, We Have to Talk, Sweet and Sour Revenge for My LW, The Letter of Destruction)

DFWBeast (About Last Night)

FamilyGuy1963 (Family cucking themes, Caught, In-Laws Outlawed, the Long Hot Summer)

hotprof1973 (A Ridiculous Bet, My Wife's Brother)

imhapless (Fade Away, The Douche Valve Kit)

moleman (Katie's Roommate)

NoTalentHack (The Last Snowfall was an incredible story that left me feeling raw..., also Arbitrary, Honesty Above All, In Health, Philanthropic, Reassessing My Life, Unwanted Memories and When the Shooting Stops)

pietro108 (DNA Results)

qhml (A Shitty Way to End a Marriage, An Unexpected Reaction, Ask Me Again in Twenty Years, Let Go)

Regguy69 (A Knock at My Door, Jagged Edg, Social Media Status)

TheMarlboroMan (Hey Carrie Anne, Second Chances, The Long Game, Two Brothers and the Girl)

Vandemonium (Gone in Minutes)

Ironic this is not posted in Loving Wives! I know, I know, it’s by all rights exactly where it should be in Reviews and Essays, and for the most part, it’s a writer to writer discussion, but as a mere reader, I find your analysis and conclusions fascinating, and think many of the LW readership would also. Too bad submissions can’t be posted in multiple categories. That’s a can of worms I’m sure Literotica won’t want to open. Thanks from a grateful fan.

The title "Literotica" suggest that the literature will be erotic. It is rare to find a truly erotic story in LW. Most that are erotic get one-bombed.

And, as NTH notes in this excellent essay, there are very few LW stories that actually describe a wife having extra-marital fun. They mostly describe the husband's reaction to her infidelities.

The moralising in the comments really does cause wonderment about the people who follow stories only in the LW category. Protest too much perhaps? Misogynistic maybe?

@JohnTCooksey... that's why categories are obsolete. Tags for the win! :)

@NTH, when looking at ratings, there's a bias that benefits story length. Not many trolls bother reading stories over 15,000 words so their scores don't get knocked as severely as shorter works. At least voters seem to be honest about reading before rating.

Mr. NTH you are one of the Greatest Writers on Lit. I can not DM you, as I have tried many times recently. My DMs always 'bonce back' as SPAM! Regardless, I would like to do an alternate ending to "I know my wife." Using your basic story as a starting point. Revolving around the old trop of "the fragile male ego". Please DM to let me know if I have your Permission or not. Thanks, Buster2U

Thank you!!! In the space of an hour I've gotten two answers to a low-level curiosity question I've had for many months. What's going on with all this talk about Loving Wives????

I read a post today by @Joy_of_Cooking about this essay, and then I came and read it. I am now free of that nagging curiosity. Very well written, and a service to many of us, I'm sure.

Well-researched analysis of the genre. I've read all of the stories you cite and agree they're excellent examples of the various Loving Wives themes. Thanks for sharing!

This is an excellent commentary and essay regarding 'The Loving Wives' section of Literotica. I would like to add my reason for the predominantly male slant in this category--the belief that women generally fare better in divorces. Personally, I believe in the even split of assets and that Joint Custody of minors should be a starting point in all divorces. Perhaps family courts need to move the needle to a more equitable starting point, and 'Loving Wives' is a vent.

Thoughtful, thorough, comprehensive. The readership is multi-variate, and compared to all other categories, an author cannot 'write to the audience' since it covers so much ground. Well put and carefully reasoned.

Excellent essay. I wish I could have read it a year ago before I posted my first story in Loving Wives. I was very naive but I have enjoyed it. I enjoy the comments, if not the death threats! I am a big fan of your talent. Thank you.

Well done as usual. I still think you are a professional author pretending to be a computer guy.

I would say LW rating is not (add .5) but rather (add a third of the distance to the goal line (5 star)). IE 4.00 is roughly a 4.33 and a 3.00 is 3.67 in other categories.

A lot of stories in LW stories that score under 3 really do fall under the 2K words of "I was walking down the street and a black guy with a twelve-inch cock fell in my wife's cunt. I was turned on so I started jacking off right there." There are exceptions, but a lot of the terrible is truly terrible. There are a good number of stories that rate 3.4 to 3.99 that I have given a 'B' to on my spreadsheet. I record the stories I read here so I don't read them five times accidentally.

Some of the best advice I have received was from hateful trolls willing to post it with their names. IE not anonymous hate. Signed hate.

PS thanks and I hate you, because your list just added a dozen long stories I have to read and my list of stories I have to read is over a hundred long.

Since @oneagainst stole my idea to comment "1* cuck shit" 😜

I suppose I'll post the other comment that I see constantly. "Too violent, 1 star"

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All jokes aside, I really enjoyed this, and I love the introspection that you've done on the category.

(Oh, and thanks for the shout-out about Range Cold)

5 stars, all day ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐

5⭐️ as an explainer as to why so many people frequent the category.

In the end, it's not my kink and I'll stick to my HEA stories.

@VeracityHeterodyne

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I'm from Texas, so I have some insight there. I may eventually get around to doing a part 2 of this or something, but in the interim, here's a rough answer.

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It's not so much the Americans that are into the violent/BTB stuff and have less sympathy for the antagonists. It's the guys from the American South. This isn't a 100% thing, but it's the general trend. There are two great books that can give some insight into the cultural reasons, Culture of Honor: The Psychology of Violence in the Modern South by Nisbett and Cohen, and American Nations by Woodward and Dixon.

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TL;DR: Southern cultures were imported from ranching and shepherding cultures in Europe as opposed to farming or industrial ones.

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In the former, a man had to be (or at least seem to be) both eternally vigilant and ruthlessly, often violently, vindictive against perceived slights. If he didn’t, it put him at the bottom of the pecking order in a way that had very, very real consequences. If a man “stole” another man’s wife, it was an insult to his honor; failing to answer that insult made him a target. Similarly, failing to answer the insult of the broken vow also did.

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Effectively, it said, "there are no real repercussions to stealing from this guy." One's entire livelihood could be stolen overnight by an enterprising thief. With the larger spaces and greater distance between plots of land in ranching/shepherding as opposed to farming, people also couldn’t rely on the law as an effective deterrent or enforcer. It became seen as cowardly to resort to that instead of handling it yourself, especially since a lot of the lower-class folks came from Scotland and Ireland, and they had their own issues with the largely English-born aristocracy of the early Southern colonies and states.

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Interestingly, the reason that West Virginia broke away from Virginia in the Civil War was because West Virginia was from Irish and Scottish stock, and they knew that the slaveowners that ran the plantations would happily put them into serfdom as their ancestors had, and they noped the fuck out of that.

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Some psychological and sociological research shows those cultural biases not only still exist, but seem to persist even after generations of moving to Northern urban areas. There was an interesting experiment detailed in Culture of Honor that I won’t get into here, but it was pretty eye opening.

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As to why there's so many Texans in the category, we're the largest state in the South, with the largest population in the South as well. Hell, we have the second largest population in the country. It makes sense that a category that often includes stories about wronged husbands avenging themselves would pick up so many writers from here.

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There’s a further reason, though, which is the intersection of politics with culture, particularly in the case of divorce laws in the state. Every guy here knows some guy who got absolutely fucked in his divorce, even though he was largely blameless, because of how and when the divorce laws were reformed.

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The Democratic party started to lose its grip on Texas in the 70s and 80s. Before that, though, we managed to pass the Equal Rights Amendment in the state constitution, even as the larger nation failed to add it to the U.S. Constitution.

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It’s a good thing that we passed it, of course. However, as part of the similar movement, we also passed a bunch of laws aimed at increasing the fairness of divorce laws in Texas, which were absolutely abysmal before. Part of that was going entirely to no-fault, community property laws that split everything down the middle, regardless of the reasons for the divorce.

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That sounds good, but it included things like laws that state that, even if a man owns a house before he gets married, if the wife lives there for even one night, she’s entitled to half of it in the divorce. However, the state’s custody rights guidelines were still set on the “a child should be raised by the mother,” and shared custody doesn’t exist in Texas, only “custody” and “visitation,” which isn’t considered a “right” as much as a privilege.

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There were a bunch of other things, too, some of which have been reformed in the last ten years, but many of which haven’t. In attempting to create fairer divorce laws that protected women and children–a laudable goal–lawmakers have created a scenario where men have historically routinely gotten screwed by the courts compared to women in the U.S. And given that it often comes in the midst of one of the most emotionally and financially painful things most men will ever experience, even without tossing infidelity into the mix, it’s not that surprising that it creates a lot of bitterness.

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That doesn’t excuse the misogyny that often accompanies it, but it does explain it. It especially explains the “cheaters always cheat” mindset one regularly sees in the comments sections: it’s a rule they can apply in their life to try to prevent themselves from ever being hurt the same way again.

I discover Literotica a few years back while searching for incest stories. For a few years that used to be my go to category (like a lot of readers here). Then I discovered Loving Wives. Maybe it was the title of the story or the description that caught my attention. In any case, it us now my go to category. Which brings me to marked the following comments / suggestions for Literotica:

1) why doesn’t Literotica create sub-categories? For example I’m not much into cuckolding or swinging stories. RAAC or BTB are my favorites. So under Loving Wives, sub-categories could be BTB, RAAC, cuckolding, swinging, sharing etc.

2) In the same vane, why can’t the stories be posted in more than one category? A story about siblings could be posted in the categories of incest, first time, anal, romance, or what ever. So if you were to browse any of those categories, you’d come upon the same story. (The story would only need to be posted once, but with the different category designations).

3) If I find a story that I like, I’ll then look at the authors list of stories to see what else he has written. They are sorted alphabetically by title. I’d like the ability to sort them by publish date, or by ranking also.

4) A final note: I don’t always leave a comment on a story, but I do at times. I’m not fond of anonymous comments, but that’s the authors choice (I’m assuming he can turn off anonymous comments). But, if he turns off comments totally, I’ll usually rate his story 1-2 stars less for doing that.

This is very helpful. I've never dared dip my toe in that category, but something you said triggered the thought. "The wife could even be dead before the story starts."

Yesterday, I literally just finished that story. Guy's wife - the marriage was perfect - was killed in a car accident, and two years later he's unwilling to get back out there. His best friend, the friend's awesome wife, his own college age daughter are all encouraging him. Telling him that the wife would want him to be happy. She even said so as her last words.

Then, it covers some of the bases you described. He tells the friend and his wife aboout his fantasy of her (cuckold-ish). They hook him up with her niece just to get him going again. There's a scene where MC and the girl have sex in the same room with friend and his wife - not a group interaction, just the two couples separately. And through it all, he's slowly accepting that it is true that his wife would be happy for him.

Now I'm wondering.. I've got 12 stories up, mostly in E&V, all but two are "Hot". Maybe I need to challenge myself.

What an excellent essay! Thanks for writing it and for the great analysis and the historical context.

One thing that I constantly find funny about LW is that the highest rated series is The Shack with Needles and Delaney. Don't get me wrong, it has great characters, dialog and writing in general, but it's about a retired badass and a genius delinquent who blow shit up and fuck up baddies in Hollywood style. The ex-wife is a very minor character in the first episode and grows less important with each subsequent chapter. So somehow it has almost nothing to do with the category (besides Needles' divorced status), but fits the tone perfectly. Food for thought.

Another LW series which has barely anything to do with spouses but is incredibly well written is the Art of Deception series by ThatNewGuy. Highly recommended.

Also prefer When One Door Closes... over A Promise Made, A Vow Broken. Same story setup with one big decision that's different, and a more rewarding feelgood journey. The latter strives to create more pathos, but the prevalent feeling for me is 'Well, had it coming'.

Illuminating essay. Thank you.

Three questions. The first. Perhaps the key word is WIFE: after the Bride's wedding? The breaking of a marriage pact. If a girl cheats on a guy, nobody cares. But if that woman breaks a law! THAT makes the topic kinky and perverse: because it's PROHIBITED?

2: Why "LW" and not "Loving Husbands"? Is it from the prejudice that all husbands cheat (no)? Or is it that nobody cares about husbands? Or is it because male readers want to read a woman's exploits and thoughts? (It is obvious that if the wife takes another woman into bed, the story will be labelled as Lesbians: L-Word is a wild card that trumps the whole deck). From your description, it seems that the readers are all males between 40 and 60, which suggests I) that no women read LW on LIT; ii) that males read more than females (WHAT?)

3: Did you know that in the French version the category reads “Épouses affectueuses”? Which literally means "CARING wives"? And that perhaps all this reasoning only applies to 'US-Centred' English-speaking readers, with a certain type of divorce, a certain type of (Texan) approach of judges in court, a certain kind of #Metoo? - And if each Language/Law, gives rise to different literatures (without bothering Wittgenstein and Montesquieu), perhaps everything we are saying here only applies to the Anglosphere?

On peut gâter une bonne chose en voulant la rendre meilleure. C'est surtout en morale que le mieux est l'ennemi du bien. You can ruin a good thing by trying to make it better. It is especially in morality that the Best is the enemy of the Good.

This category is precisely the Tolkien's MORDOR: because it is DENSELY POPULATED BY TROLLS!

My two LW stories are the exception to most of what goes on in the category I guess: cheaters prosper and have lots of fun sex in both stories. 😄 Both stories earned the red H, have a bazillion views, and get plenty of supportive comments. I think readers like them because they’re told from the “other man’s” point of view.

Great story recommendations. The ones I've read I've enjoyed. The ones I hve not I will get to shortly. Poly especially was a fun read.

Interesting write up, legit did not know the origins of the LW category. I always kinda assumed it was meant to be a literal "loving wife" as in married romance but mutated into cuck stuff. Turns out it was the opposite. I can only speak for myself as someone who has never been married or a real long term relationship but I do enjoy romantic marriage based stories, the catharsis of a good revenge story especially of a cheated spouse getting revenge but abhor cuckolding stories. Possibly a bit hypocritical that while I like revenge stories I dislike the revenge cuckolding stories, the wife sleeping with the hubbies friends in revenge or the far FAR rarer husband sleeping with the wifes friends in revenge, just holds no real appeal. I think for me at least I don't like any extremes even of categories I like such as reconciliation or BTB. For the former the so called "RAAC" stories are rarely good in my opinion and for BTB it seems like a lot if not most are so over the top it goes into fantasy territory, which is fine I guess but not as enjoyable to me as a good somewhat ground revenge story. Just the overly violent and mean spirited stories hold no real appeal for me.

Probably why I have such a loathing for cuck stuff even beyond the general distaste of the subject's basis (cheating). It, to me, always feels mean spirited in writing at least in my admittedly limited experience. A betrayal of someone, threats of legal consequences or even violence if they don't comply, humiliation and emotional pain, even attempting to cage (be it parts or as a whole) and change the person. It, to me, is sickening, emotional torture porn that I honestly cannot understand how someone can enjoy. Not knocking those who do enjoy it, just a matter of differing personal taste on my part. Bit like how some like horror movies, love a good jump scare, while others dislike or loath that sort of thing. Seeing people be menaced or hurt and having themselves cared just is not something they enjoy.

But my dislike of those type stories is why I like the revenge stories, the bad guys of those type stories get their in my opinion well deserved comeuppance, the cheating bitch/bastard gets their life ruined and the hero/heroine rides off into the sunset with a busty babe/brawny bro. Simplistic stories no doubt, no real nuance but well I'm a simple guy. Just what I happen to like.

I do think this site could do with separate categories and maybe sub-categories to really sort through things. Maybe cross-posted categories? Like a story about a brother who after his wife sleeps with best friend gets comforted by his sister and her friends could go into multiple categories of incest, LW, group sex. Honestly think probably what would help the best is more concise tags, maybe some site rules of usage of tags to make seeing what a stories content is easier and to find stories of certain subjects easier. Been many a good if not amazing stories I never found searching tags but instead found through like user favorites of my favorite authors.

You have written an excellent essay that should be read by anyone planning on writing in the LW section.

For several years, before I started writing my own stories, i almost exclusively read stories in LW, assuming that was the only category where stories I want to read would all be.

Through writing, I've learned many of the lessons that you illustrate here and I have also come to appreciate other categories as well.

It is a tough crowd, but you do get very real reactions from people when you hit a nerve, that you do not get in other categories.

Great essay! I think you really encapsulated a lot of the ethos of the category and its readers.

Another Love is great, but absolutely gets under my skin, which is what makes it such a good story.

A couple of recommendations: THEN SURELY WE by Malraux and THE WEDNESDAY COUPLE by markelly (in Novels and Novellas category).

Looking forward to those on your list that I may have missed and to your future stories.

An excellent and much-needed essay on the topic! For the longest time, I have been bewildered (and a bit disgusted) by the hateful vitriol that spews from some readers, most often under the cover of anonymity. I see these comments as inevitable, which is particularly because many of the authors, especially those whose stories include “hard” cuckolding or the BTB slant, preface the stories with clear disclaimers that the story includes those elements. One would hope that those who find those elements objectionable would simply, I don’t know, maybe choose NOT to read them. And if perchance they opted to read it anyway, then surely they could have the sense not to slam the story for being (gasp) exactly as it was described.

I believe that this trend can be reasonably linked to shifts in societal values. I just turned 59, and I was raised under many guidelines that seem to have largely died away. For example, there was the idea that “If you can’t say something nice, then don’t say anything.” I might alter that to “nice or at least constructively critical” for our purposes, but the thought remains. I’ve always tried to be positive and encouraging in my comments, or at least polite and constructive in any criticism. I enjoy positive critique on my own writing, whether her or in other venues, and I try to reply to them to show my appreciation. But the nastiness that abounds in this category blows my mind. I also learned long ago that, if you didn’t enjoy a type of something (food, music, literature, etc) then you should just exercise your freedom to…not indulge in them. I can’t eat shellfish. I don’t go into Red Lobster and blast the waitress, the cook, or the manager for serving something I don’t like. I either order something I DO like, or I go next door to the steak house. I like steak. I don’t like cottage cheese; therefore, I don’t buy it, or spend a bunch of time in the cottage cheese section of the store. I guess my logic is outdated, or at least my manners.

At any rate, thank you for writing this. Overall, I find it encouraging. I may venture back into this minefield.

Lusty Scribe's comment has really nailed it. The relationship between "Extra-marital fun" and the average LW story is

If you are wanting to write a story but feel intimidated to do so because you lack writing skills, just write an over the top BTB story in the LW section. It won’t matter how bad it is you will score at least a 4.2 rating and receive dozens of comments declaring you the next coming of Hemingway!

I really enjoyed NTH’s commentary but let’s face facts. Literotica is a website focused on pornographic pursuits. Why are the stories make centric? Because males consume the ADT majority of porn! They come to the site looking for heck off material. When they have their orgasms ruined, they get pissed off! That’s all this is.

There are a number of writers, mostly men, who actually write meaningful and thoughtful pieces. NTH being one of the best. But, they are the exception, not the rule.

I have written few stories, and yet I received what I felt were high and fair scores, despite not having sex, despite only a few ‘singe the bitch’ stories, and despite having men reconcile or deal with deeper issues.

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The thing that the readers seem to want the most is drama and something beyond ‘separating finances and sending photos to the parents’ which has been overdone. Give them melodrama and emotions, make them feel, even for a cheater, and they will reward your stories. Javmor has a deft hand in that.

/

I think the insight of ‘this is one of the few places men can be heard sympathetically’ is very germane…and sad. So if a bit of Stangstarrian fantasy is what you’d like, enjoy!

/

Can’t believe you didn’t mention JPB. His stories are some of the most varied and speak with a very plain and direct style. He is a cornerstone on the site.

NTH, 'nuther ignorant reader very impressed with what seemed very sober take on the genre. The tone/feel was easy to read, many of your observation at least parallel my own of the category. To borrow from your text 'it was well written'. Thank you for the bibliography - they're usually a gold mine.

'Best to you & yours,

DreadedAnonymous

Perhaps LW should have two scores. One for quality of writing and one for the plot?

This is fucking great. It really does detail what the rest of us just doesn't see in the catagory by nuance, whether we refuse to get in there, or just simply aren't interested. I have one laid out that I want to write eventually--super curious how it'll turn out.

My rule of thumb is I generally don't read anything with a rating much below 4. Down in the 3.6's I'm usually sorry I broke my rule.

This has been really helpful to me and a little humbling. I admit I hate the cuckholding trend and try not to read them unless I really trust the author or I suspect the character doing the cuckholding really gets roasted. (I would love for that to have its own category. I haven't ever given a 1 star to a story though. I feel if a person is brave enough to post a story, they deserve more than 1 star (unless the story is unreadable from a writing standpoint, not content). I have wondered about many of the points you have discussed here. I have only been reading on Lit for 3 or so months, so I am not familiar with the history. I don't often read essays, but again, I gave you a shot because I really enjoy your work, so thanks!!! Thanks for this essay and thanks for all your stories and thanks for the list of stories/authors at the end, some of which are new to me. Take care and keep posting here. I don't know where else to go.

The name of this website is Literotica, but in reality it is a porn site. Erotica and porn are not the same thing. Porn is the graphic depiction of sexual activity, while erotica focuses more on art and aesthetics. Literotica is is a for profit endeavor valued at around $100 million. People, the huge majority being men, come to this website looking for porn. They aren’t interested in art or aesthetics. Any attempt by anyone to make societal evaluations from its content or membership is making the same mistake as those that would quote statistics on infidelity from studies conducted by Ashley Madison membership roles. Those Numbers, BTW, that are frequently used in stories and essays on this site.

Literotica has been around for 25 years. Don’t you think if they gave a rat’s ass about what stories went into the LW section and/or what commenters values were, they’d have made some changes by now? I think the reason it says “and more” speaks to their thoughts on the matter.

I don’t think there really has been a change in the type of stories posted in LW. If you go back and read the oldest stories posted there are BTB’s, RAACS, cuckold, femdom, poly, etc. a change I’ve noticed is the BTB stories are much more popular than a couple decades ago. I attribute this to the fact that Lit’s LW section is like the only place left where divorced misogynists can express their true thoughts without fear of retribution! Or, their girlfriends cutting them off?

First of all, a thoughtful and deep analysis. Not too surprising coming from this author (and less so once he said he does computer system analysis for a living :) but still, worth a good word. I don't agree with all 100% of it but I think I agree with overwhelming bulk of the points made. The bit about history of the category was eye-opening and probably not widely known by average reader - definitely wasn't by me.

Question for the author - how do you feel about proposals (I made them in comments to some stories as well), to separate LW into different categories altogether? You already mentioned the idea of cuckolding having its own category so I am hoping you view the idea positively. My idea was to create more than one: (1) "Swinging", (2) "Cheating Spouse" (I'm undecided on separating reconciliation and divorce cheating stories into separate categories, vs. just using tags); (3) "Good marriage" (for actual loving loving wives stories) ; and (4)"Cuckolding" (for literal cuckolding stories, where the husband is aware and either agrees or encourages it).

The upside is that it would hopefully resolve the civil war(s) and super friction. The downside, is it would remove the Arrakis/Salusa Secundus type "crucible" to use your terminology, thereby depriving the authors of the pressure to perfect themselves as much.

Second question - why is it that you are OK with banning say violence against women, but not violence against men? Seems incredibly double-standard. And on the same note, personally, I would ban all forced cuckolding stories from the site the same way you ban violence against women; so it doesn't deserve a category at all.

As a separate point, I'd like to propose another advice to authors regarding posting to LW (if you like it, feel free to incorporate into your post): ***BE TRANSPARENT AND HONEST***.

If a story has proper tags, AND a clear disclaimer, saying it's a reconciliation and there is no BTB, there a high chance that some - and hopefully many - readers who dislike reconciliation stories would simply skip it reading or skip voting.

Why? Because in at least some cases, bad votes aren't just a reaction to reading something disagreeable - it's also a reaction to **wasting your precious time reading something disagreeable that could have been spent on better, more agreeable/pleasant things**.

Personally, there were many stories that would in theory get -1/-2 from me (so 3-4 score even if quality is good), where I did NOT dock points, because the author honestly announced in advance that I can expect things I don't like. Then, I as a reader have a choice: skip the story (saving my time), read it and vote on pure quality, or read it and not vote. Depending on context/nuance, I usually take the first or third path - and only VERY rarely, for most egregious stories, do my usual and vote based on "how just the storyline is to victim and perpetrator of cheating".

Hi NTH. Thanks for the shout out. Also, thank you for directly encouraging me. You, like many of the thoughtful readers that commented on your essay, advised me to tune out the trolls and ignore the readers that took vile shots at me personally (up to wanting me dead) because they did not like my MCs. This essay is also a form of encouragement for authors in this category as it provides a badly needed perspective on how we got here and what to expect if you venture into the LW’s waters. Finally, your recommendations and the comments have provided a treasure trove of good story recommendations. For that, thank you. I wish Literotica had a place where you could post recommendations of good stories that got bad scores.

Thanks for that. As a first time author to Literotica I received some very helpful comments on my first short story. I'm currently three quarter done on my second which is a revenge story and my agony is how does a man go overboard in seeking revenge without becoming unlikable by the reader because I believe that essentially a 'hero' or MC must at least embody traits that the reader ascribes to or at least relates to.

I do have some pet peaves. The martian slut ray in which a perfectly normal happy marriage is destroyed by a previously wondwrful loving wife - that 's just lazy writing.

Secondly the disgusting filthy whore who took three guys at once over and over untill she was fucked by twenty men behaved like a hateful slut took drugs and made a porno tape of her debasement but then the MC rationalises that she was always a wonderful mother and shows whatva nice guy he is by going beyond what is required and giving her the house, extra money etc... Lastly one can't be an inteligent rational man and get and stay drunk for two nights never mind two weeks or more and breaking things like punching holes in the walls...don't get that.

Lastly this whole embarassment to be a cuckold nonsense. If one's wife is a cheat. Tell the world she's a cheat. It's not the husband's problem. It's her problem

Wow. This is really outstanding, and is definitely going to be bookmarked. You did an amazing job of outlining the history, the different swirls of perspectives, and the catharsis aspect that have made this such a contentious--and powerful--crucible for a writer. Just fantastic!

/

I mentioned to a former student who is also in the fiction writing game that Loving Wives is my bargain-basement MFA. He giggled until I showed him some of the comments that I had received. He noted that they were better feedback than he received in his five-figure-per-year MFA program. Bottom line, non-professional or not, this is the place to learn about audience, get heartfelt feedback, and become a better writer in an environment that is honest and--despite the hype--VERY supportive. Thanks for this love letter to the most contentious place on Literotica!

I enjoyed this essay about LW. Well done, and thank you for the list of stories at the end. I'm still working my way thru them, especially the ones unfamiliar to me! 5 stars.

Came into Literotica through a comment on an article about infidelity.

A friend of mine came home from a function a few days before Christmas to find his wife and kids gone and the house nearly empty. Aside from the furniture in the guest bedroom, a few pots and pans, utensils, plates, bowls and mugs, the only thing left his recliner, the still lit Christmas tree, and his presents under it. Over the next year, he tended to call me late at night. Lots of times he just needed another voice. Other times, he sought my advice,. These phone calls led me to consume vast quantities of information about adultery from reddit discussions to self-help articles. The articles rarely had anything useful, but like LW stories, the comments were incredible. And that's were I came across the fateful line in some buried comments to some obscure article, "This makes me think of "My Story" by Jidoka on Literotica." And that is why I am here. That story stunned me with it's raw honesty. And I've been reading LW stories since.

I love LW because the best stories here transcend porn or erotica. They approach great fiction. They make us feel. They immerse us, for a few minutes or maybe an hour into a world we recognize immediately as a mirror of our own. A man comes home from a function days before Christmas to find his wife and kids have moved out. The house is nearly empty, except for his recliner sitting facing a lit and decorated Christmas tree with only his presents remaining under it. And there you have the start of an LW story, one that grabs you and won't let go, except yesterday I pitched in and helped that same man on a job he was short handed on. And six years ago I watched him marry his new wife who, in the craziness of life, has become friends with his ex-wife.

Readers of LW stories want their stories to reflect these experiences, their pain and suffering, their rage, their grief, and, for many, their eventual recovery and new life. It's why I love this category. I've read a few stories in other categories, but stroke stories bore me, and I find I always return to LW and the pathos and pain of a man sitting alone in his empty house three days before Christmas.

A well done and thoughtful analysis. I would suggest that analyses of these stories has a couple of dimensions which make solid opinions difficult. One you mention, that stories are tagged by the author - and similar stories may not be similarly tagged AND similarly tagged stories may not be that similar. But the larger problem is a lack of uniformity of readers. From comments on my stories I see that anonymous commenters tend to be angry - without data, my assumption is they have been hurt and are looking for stories where the cheaters are properly punished. I don't usually write such stories, so those commenters tend to rate my stories poorly. I also presume, without data, that many of these readers do not bother with my stories after not liking one or two. So, over time, readers trend toward authors they like (which might include stories they like, writing they like, or outcomes they like). There are at least 10s of thousands of readers who have many different reasons for reading these stories. A score of x.xx by one author may be entirely different than the same score by another author - the readers are likely to be so different (presuming both authors have enough content on the site that they have a following). There are a couple hundred stories in all categories, published daily. I follow ~70 authors and read all their stories - plus a few more whose titles intrigue me. My guess is everyone has a similarly sized sample, but of very different stories.

Back to your analysis and discussions. I found them well reasoned. A very interesting read - which I came upon solely because I follow your LW stories.

The Martian Slut Ray is a verified phenomena. It works both ways, but I've seen it mostly in women. I'll give an example.

Two college sweethearts, married ten years, both faithful and devoted to each other. The wife goes to a work conference and over three days finds herself drawn to an attractive and charismatic man who is also attending. The two discover they live about three hours from each other, him in a major U.S. city, her in a moderately sized, but rural town. They continue to communicate via AOL e-mail, back in the early days of the internet.

The wife is sharing all of this with her best friend who is married to the husband's good friend. All four met in college and have become inseparable over the past ten years.

The two wives decide to fake a weekend "shopping trip" to the big city to give the formerly faithful and devoted wife, who has been hit with the Martian Slut Ray, the opportunity to indulge in a little outside marital fun. The husbands agree. They completely trust their wives. The two women go, the one wife spends the weekend in bed with her lover, and husbands are none the wiser. That is until the husband on a business trip sees a computer in the lobby of his hotel. A sudden thought strikes him, wouldn't it be a wonderful and surprising romantic move to e-mail his wife from her own AOL account. You know where this is going. It takes him a few minutes to guess her password, and feeling quite proud of himself and his wonderful romantic gesture, his world crashes down as he reads every e-mail sent between his wife and her lover because, hey, it's the early days of e-mail and nobody is yet thinking about deleting those things. Nobody, except for a few geeks, even knows what clearing browser histories or emptying trash bins means.

You might ask, "How do you know all this, buddy boy?" I know all this because I worked with the guy. We were talking one day when he got a call, looked at his phone, and told me he had to take the call. When he finished, he explained it was his ex-wife calling to wish him happy birthday, to which I asked, "Your ex-wife calls you to wish you happy birthday?" And he told me the entire story along including his confrontation with the woman, he thought was his friend, who helped his wife set up the affair. The only thing she said to him, "That's all between you and Angie (not her real name). Don't ever talk to me again." And that ended a ten year "friendship." Tragically, the ex-wife never moved on. She's still single and still calls him every year on his birthday, on Christmas, and their anniversary to wish him happy anniversary. It took him over ten years, but he eventually remarried. My wife and I went to the wedding. At the reception there was this tall, slender, very attractive woman standing in a corner looking at my coworker with a look of utter loss. She was so out of place, my wife and I asked who she was, and we were told that was Angie, the ex-wife. Like my wife said, it was heartbreaking to see her there.

So what do you call that? What do you call it when a faithful wife, passionately loving her husband, has a weekend fling with a guy, throws away her marriage, then spends decade in a futile attempt to win him back only to watch him marry another woman? What do you call that? Make up a name, but for now, Martian Slut Ray works just fine.

Loving Wives works as a category because it covers the entire range of relationships - not sex - relationships. Cheating, divorce, revenge, reconciliation. We love it because it, unlike mind control stories or those tedious incest stories where a son sees his mom's bra strap and suddenly everyone strips and screws, actually hits hard for people like me who have watched the very same things LW authors write about happen around them.

Martian Slut Ray is a perfectly explainable and real phenomena. It's a sexual equivalent of a person on a diet going and binging on bad tasty stuff. Marriage restricts one's natural impulses to engage in sexual relations with attractive people of (usually opposite?) sex - and following ANY kinds of restrictions is difficult for humans. It takes effort and takes its toll. You have to make "good" decisions continuously - in this case for years. Some people are able to do it - either due to intrinsic motivations, or because they don't want to hurt the person they are with, or because they are afraid of consequences. And some people grab a (sexual) plate of donuts and a tub of ice cream at the end, no matter the consequences - or self justifying that there won't be consequences.

I think this is a well thought out essay. Hell, I found my way here through maybe a different type of path. I read a lot growing up and my mom had hundreds of romance novels. I tried reading one, being naïve enough not to understand that it basically was female porn.

So, not wanting to make it obvious I liked the stories, I searched for “sex stories” on Google on my smartphone when I got one. Not knowing anything, I just clicked a story and it was a Matt Moreau story. I think it was about a revenge fuck on a husband that turned him into servant. I was disgusted. How could this stand? How could someone find this sexy? I was, as said above, naïve. I closed that tab and roiled. Then I went back to see the comments. There were others similarly disgusted with the content. Thank god, I thought, but one comment recommended another story that was a bit…harsher on the cheater. 13 years later, I’m still here, but matured in my appreciation for the slow burn, emotional angst.

I think NTH hit the nail on the head when he stated that it’s about the drama. The best stories here are short stories that happen to include themes of sex, betrayal, tension, catharsis. The list included here was very good, but Malraux’s ‘Then Surely We’ deserves a read.

Very well written and thoughtful piece. NTH hits the nail on the head, again.

I will check out every one of those stories listed - many I recognize as I have already read.

Check out ttt59 sometime. 19 stories and over 1K followers. He or she (doesn't say in the bio section) is pretty traditional BTB but has some fun twists in the stories, also a couple dark ones.

A lot of thought and work went into this, and I always appreciate the work it takes to write. But alas, I think your observations, comments, and suggestions, and points will mostly fall on deaf ears. The category is a trollfest, and as someone said in a prior comment, its a sanctuary for misogynists and that group has elevated the nastiest types of stories and are pushing away better quality tales.

Good job on trying to make a broken category sound redeemable, and glad to see you getting a lot of attention in the comments. but as far as having an influence goes, a futile effort. Good luck in your writing.

Very, very interesting, very well written, and very well thought out. Thank you!

It gave some new insight into the genre, but didn’t change my mind about anything. I’m at that point in my life where I like what I like. I tend to see everything in black or white!, or maybe good or evil with no shades of grey. I despise cheaters and cheating, and have a visceral hatred for the very idea of cuckolding. I’m happily married, and the thought of sharing my wife is abhorrent to me. I’m not a bitter old man, but I am a man of morals, more Old Testament than New. I appreciate your talent, and many others who write stories , not just overblown sex scenes. I appreciate this essay and am in awe of your talent and ability to tell a story.

What I've noticed about KW over time (When We Were Married starting to be published about then) is that the early votes all tend to be 1's. I'm a late night reader, and tend to shut down after the new stories are added. In the last few years, they all tend to have a 1.00 rating. I'm almost inclined to believe someone has developed a program to automatically give any new LW story a single star repeatedly.

My preferred stories all have drama, emotion, distinct actions, correct English grammar (I can't get my middle and high school English teachers out of my head), and fairly detailed. Writers like DQS1, Rehnquist, Todd172, and others I have forgotten now seem to have fallen by the wayside (I believe Rehnquist is no longer with us, I wanted to see some more stores adding to that universe).

I guess the best way to look at it is to see the score range for JPB - he's written long enough that trending his scores would be inciteful to the change in taste of LW readers.

I've never written a story for Literotica (although I've thought about a treatment for tician's Destroyed) and doubt I will. Erotica is not my thing to write or imagine, but I enjoy reading the LW emotional stories and how people recover from it or not, together or separately.

No real conclusion to these comments, but I am curious if there is a "bot" providing 1-bombs to LW stories.

Fantastic well written and insightful look at history of LW. The only thing I would add that I have numerous writers of ebooks that cut there teeth in LW and have published books I own!

Please do keep writing and I will keep reading

I've written a little over the years and occasionally think I might just post it oneday. After this? No. No, thank you. It sounds like hell. Not so much worried about scroes being ruined by 1 star bombs (my stories would do that by themselves). It just sounds like most people would prefer it if you didn't bother. So, probs won't. On a wider note, it was a fascinating glimps into the site and the LW category, in particular. I now have an even greater respect for those that do post here. Conversely, I probs now have a lower opinion of some readers.

Hi NTH, thanks for sharing your stories list. I’ve been going through some of them, some I knew, some I didn’t. Thanks a lot!

Major Rewrite posted;

“ My two LW stories are the exception to most of what goes on in the category I guess: cheaters prosper and have lots of fun sex in both stories. 😄 Both stories earned the red H, have a bazillion views, and get plenty of supportive comments. I think readers like them because they’re told from the “other man’s” point of view.”

/

The reason his stories have “supportive comments” is because he blocks any that are negative. I have personally tried at least 4 times over the past 3-4 years to comment on “Office Wife”, and none of them posted. Even when I had an account, he blocked my comments. It’s easy to have a high score, and hundreds of positive comments when that’s all you allow!!!

ZK (formerly ZharKhan)

Interesting.

I hated February sucks. 1 star from me. It was a chore to read. The dialogues interminable and tedious. Nothing like that happened to me and I could not identify with either character. Plenty of stories here have touched me and this one did so viscerally especially the end is why it got one star from me. I also 1 bombed the follow ups for the same reason.

I couldn’t separate my reaction from the craft. There was an incident 2 years before we married. I think there’s been several since. We adopted an infant a few years later and they are the reason we are in our 4th decade now.

If February sucks had happened to me it would have been BTB all the way. Damn the consequences.

I’ve been here for months now. Came when we’ve had a dead bedroom for years and years. I was conflicted. Was thinking of moving on. Asked myself whether I had truly applied myself to the union. Of course I had withdrawn and contributed to the lack of intimacy. So I truly made an effort. We are in a better place now. It’s taken months.

I live vicariously through these stories. I was never a ‘Romance’ reader but I’ve become more emotional as I age. Did this place save my marriage? Maybe. Maybe it was never in doubt because of cowardice.

Keep on keeping on. The stories here have had real world implications for me and perhaps others beyond escapism.

Five by five