All Comments on 'Struggling to Survive Pt. 05'

You wrote the ending well. Not everyone will be pleased, but you covered most of the bases that needed to be covered. Also thank you thank you thank you...for NOT having them get back together. Both had issues, and Kara really needed to grow up.

In the end Kara grew up, Tom got wiser and everyone learned a valuable lesson or three.

I am thinking that perhaps the reason you got so many of a particular kind of comment was because of HOW you ended each part of your stories. For example, you left Kara at the end of part 4 being an absolute raging...ummm....for lack of a better word....female dog.

When you do things like that you should expect a certain amount of "hate" mail. Also author's tend to write what they feel. People don't know how you TRULY think about these situations you write and since you are writing we cannot hear your tone of voice. So to some you may seem to be discouraging a particular kind of behavior, and to others you may be encouraging it. Then they respond with either support, personal attacks or derision?

The wonderful thing about human beings is that you truly can put six of us in a room and then at least 14 arguments, 8 different points of view, 2-3 fist fights and one marriage will most likely take place. =-) We all are very different and though gregarious as starlings, also uniquely individualistic.

So smile and chuckle when you read those negative comments, and the real venomous ones. Smile because you know you touched a nerve and that readers minsd will be mulling over and over your story. Some of my best friendships happened that exact way.

Take care of yourself, I am curious what you will write in the future.

Sincerely,

Payenbrant

but plz dont continue, it shud end here, we know if you continue one of few things will happen, but leave it to imaginations and hopes of readers

I have ALWAYS had 1 rule. Serious LW stories deserve SERIOUS thought and reflection. The fact is that I would cut off my left foot if I could write as well as You or laptopwriter of JPB (and I do have some stories to tell).

I dont mind being called an asshole. As long as writers authors know that I am not intentionally trying to be one.

In terms of how this story ended I approve of it quite a bit and I think is pretty realistic. The main difference of opinion I have is trying to see how much of this breakdown in in the marriage communication was on Tom. From my point of view I really don't see any of this as being Tom's fault.

The hero worship charge in my opinion remains bullshit. Yes there are men who see themselves as some sort of hero or see it as their responsibility to save women that are in a bad situation . But I do not see any of that with Tom. As I read the story Kara saw Tom as HER hero that got her out of stripping and desperation.

Men and women which go through extended long here periods of being laid off and not being able to find work in this slow economic recovery from disastrous recession of 2008... Often become depressed and irritable. They lose self respect and they lose faith in the system . So while it is true that Tom went through all of that it does not mean he has to take some responsibility for the breakdown and marriage communication .

If you go back and read the story from chapter 1 and chapter 2 ...Throughout the entire story Kara NEVER once expressed ANY sort of sympathy or recognition of the debilitating effects of prolonged unemployment was having on Tom.

The fact of the matter is when kara was in trouble Tom was there and helped her purely out of love. When Tom got laid off from work and depressed for months she shut him down ...cut him off ....treated him with blatant and obvious disgust and disrespect ..and fucked another man... simply because she wanted to.

Ever since reading Ch 1, I couldn't wait for the next. You kept my interest. I'm one of those hopeless romantics who wish to see love conquer all. One of my paradoxes, since my ex wife had seven affairs (I spent too many nights in the field while I was in the Army). You were able to capture the effects of a failed marriage on children, esp Dean. Thanks for writing, am looking forward to your next story!

One of the core things I believe is that eventually it all comes around , karma will be served ...maybe later then sooner , but eventually. Did Kara get paid back in full for her indiscretions ? To me , she was a damaged soul from the get-go , in terms of when Tom met her. Ex-strippers aren't often ideal wife material, but Tom factored in her looks and took that leap, gambling he could handle her issues. When Tom lost job , the stress sundered them.

Things shook out pretty much in conclusion what I'd loosely define as fair. Maybe Richard deserved a few more sharp raps to ribs with Louisville slugger but that's about it. I thought the writing got better with each installment and I would have five starred part 4 if that option were possible.

Joseph Campbell has an archetype called the hero's journey ala the Odyssey . Kara and Tom both definitely had a wild ride and after many travails arrived in a better place. If I were to quibble , maybe these two characters shouldn't have been jobless and desperate from very opening of story ? Odysseus and Penolope were King and Queen of prosperous kingdom in aforementioned book's start.

Likewise, perhaps we should have seen a bit more of Kara and Tom's initial strong marriage before layoff to bring home the damage of economic downturn ? Easy for me to nitpick from bleachers. javmor79 overall body of work for this story with economic storms flooding and breaking marital dam , the fictional characters alternately frustrating and thrilling us as in real life was very ambitious and hit vast majority of author's designated targets.

Kudos. I thank javmor79 for sharing.

Full marks. * * * * *

Not with a bang but a whimper.

You tried to cover too many bases. The BTB revenge on the seducer, the semi-RAAC, the we can be good friends ending, the scary thing that is supposed to bring them back to talking to one another, and other tropes like the 'let me get it out of my system with a couple of fucks'. I mean, seriously, after the second 'amazing' sex session she suddenly saw the light and began pining for her ex. Literally cheating wives excuses 101 right there.

This is why I said you should have just let it end on chapter 4, because you brought us to a point where we simply loathed his ex-wife. You can't reverse that in one chapter, it ends up shaky and schizophrenic. As far as the comments and the voting, I was initially pissed, but I've had a think on it and, in the end, it's your choice since you are the writer.

tl;dr

This story was deeply unsatisfying for me, I really feel I wasted my time on it. But, it's your story and my opinion doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

My only strong feelings toward the ending was in regards to the seducer getting his comeuppance, Grace being told the truth and Kara FINALLY telling the truth. The rest was meh.

I could actually FEEL Tom's rage when he and Ricky finally met face to face... If I were in his situation the temptation to do more harm would have been irresistible and would probably lead to life in prison unless I could swing temporary insanity. I would have felt better about Tom and Kara's ending if he at least got to even the score with a lady friend of his own, but I guess 2 wrongs don't make a right. Overall I want to give this story about a 3. Sadly I cant vote on it.

Not just for this chapter but for all five.

I was a little chagrined after having read the first few pages because I thought it was going down the route of boilerplate RAAC. However, after reading the entire chapter I can honestly say I was satisfied with the outcome because it rings true and a dose of reality not only is satisfying but quenches the first for plausibility and believability.

It is a testament to javmor79's writing that a reader can be thrown off the scent by trying to predict conclusions from the offset. He is of a rare breed of authors in that he can weave realistic dialogue, exposition, character traits, plot twists etc. into a good story which is consistent and fulfilling. Granted, his style won't be other people's cup of tea, but I appreciate his submissions which are a godsend in an otherwise mired story section that is inundated with mediocre pulp.

I have a few mote-sized niggles with this chapter, namely in that it took the oft over-used trope of a family catastrophe to reunite an estranged couple. I thought the cliffhanger scene was a dramatic spike in a story which was otherwise pragmatic and grounded. This is not to say accidents don't happen, I just don't believe convenient coincidences can pop out of thin air to resolve a crisis. Be that as it may, the build-up to the scene was written well. At least he didn't take on a bunch of armed muggers or fight off a rabid bear! ;)

I was also a little worried with the Sandra scene because I didn't want it to devolve into a revenge fuck scenario but again, javmor79 wrote her to be just someone who was watching out for her dear friend.

I completely agree with javmor79 about the rating system in that it is abused by a minority of registered users and the majority of anonymous trolls. If a commenter can backup his/her appraisal with thoughtful criticism, that is all an author needs in my opinion.

Only as long as I dont say anything bad about the writer, but I am allowed to say negative things about the story. Did I get that right??

But it raises some difficult issues. After all a story just doesn't sprout by itself.

It is the writer who shapes every aspect of the story.

Now if the story was poorly written, one would say "The writing was bad", does that statement not allude to the writer.....

So asking for honest opinions about a story without allowing the people to comment on all aspects of the story(the writing, the characters, the author etc) is impossible.

Anyways about the story I'll say this. I think the final chapter was incomplete.

The open ending was a cop out. The story should have had the courage to show us what actions these characters finally took. Though a recon seemed almost certain.

The less said about the stupidity of the characters the better, among other things why they didn't sue for sexual harassment and gain a favorable settlement was weird.

Finding god after the accident and the existence of that accident happening in the story and the characters getting closer after it is a very weak plot point and way too overused.

Actually I'd have preferred Tom dying there. At least then he would be free of Kara and his own idiocy.

And the fact that in all stories written by Jav(am I allowed to say this??) the fact that the husband is always blamed for the wife being a whore is aggravating.

Sure the wife felt she wasn't respected, but Tom as sure as hell wasn't being given any respect either. You don't see him chatting up ladies in his neighborhood or at a bar. He does not take up screwing other people to make himself feel good. So why is he blamed for things they both did.

Overall I think this series should get a 2. The writing itself was very good, even if what was actually written was without any sense. And it had no real conclusion.

_Wes...

First, I almost liked the ending because you see this outcome everyday. Exes, getting along well enough to help the kids. However, it is still not a good situation. He and the boys still had to eat a plate of her shit. Let me compare it to this: a wife is convinced by another man to play with a gun, she grabs the gun and starts shooting, in her carelessness (lovelessness) she shoots her husband and each of her sons in the heart. When she sees what she has done, she blames her husband for not keeping her from playing with the gun. She stands there and watches them bleed out. Eventually she realizes what she is losing. She finally apologizes, yet the blood (love) keeps flowing out of the wounds until it is all gone. In the end, the corpses can forgive her because their pain and their love is gone. They no longer feel anything except pity for a poor, stupid woman. Their forgiveness comes with the cost of her self respect. With no love, or respect left for her she will be marginalized by her husband and boys. Her judgement is faulty and cannot be trusted. There is no need for a melodramatic cliff's edge scene, the men will all be united by the ordeal she put them through and in their mutual lack of respect for the stupid woman. The boys will know that their mother valued her ego and another man's cock more than them. There is no changing that. So, what does this lovely lady do to prove how much she has changed, she goes and rats out her boyfriend and destroys his wife and children with the knowledge that he was cheating on them too. Why not increase the pain? She is a real gem isn't she? The final bit about the family being intact? Are you kidding me? Have you had any experience with a dysfunctional family? The pain and the wounds will last for a lifetime and likely be past down to the next generation in some form. Every little action we take causes ripples on the water of our lives, she caused a tsunami. This is the gist of this story: "I am sorry I shot you, here's a band aid. Now we can be friends again." (Right)

There, I said it.

It's shit because you dragged it out needlessly for one extra chapter.

Why did you feel the need to have Kara fuck Richard in the previous chapter? Why couldn't she have come to the epiphany of telling her ex-husband the truth on her own?

And then there's the reconciliation narrative pushing through.

I would rate this as 1 star because the main female character is clearly a schizophrenic, in the way that she perceives the world and then acts in it.

Tom getting back with her would be a huge mistake on his part.

as i read this story it made me realize that it truly is close to real life. I can see how tom felt that he saved kara in the beginning from her past life and he was the hero.he brought dean around to finally trust a man in his moms life. then when he lost his job he started that slide down the slope of despair and clammed up into himself and didn't let anyone in. she did start to lose respect for him when he couldn't find work but by finding work herself she also took over the roll of being the provider for her family and in that lost more respect for her husband. then to have to stoop to doing what she had to to get her job back i feel she finally blamed tom for that. richard was her savior when he came along to get rid of her boss but he also had an agenda for her which she didn't realize. she was played by him and fell for it. so glad at the end that there seems to be hope for them to get together again; great writing

I suspect you tried to keep everybody more or less happy with the end,no reconciliation,no btb just letting it there in the middel,each can now go further into the future and write theyr own outcome,for me i think the children would benefit most with a reconciliation aspecially if both can put theyr life apart and later together but thats just me

Nice. But i wished they got back. They definitely loved each other crazy...

Good honest story. I much prefer real people to characatures, and to that end , I believe you are ultimately successful. We all exist on that, continuum between damnation and redemption if we are honest.

I don't much pay attention to scoring in the Loving Wives category anymore, because the tug-of-war between the BTB and RAAC advocates is so fierce that it assures mediocre scores and discounts fine writing like yours. In fact, I 'm appalled with some of the almost unreadable stuff that has avid support.

Thank you for the courage to be true to your art, and greater thanks to your skill and craft as a writer. You are a joy to read.

It would have been nice to read a good reconciliation story, they have gotten quite rare. But unfortunately the current climate in the LW section doesn´t allow it. Some kind of ambiguity is the most a couple can hope for without the author being burned by the loud btb crowd. Which is a shame, it would be nice to see both kinds of outcome here. The stories aren´t rated for the content or writing quality anyway, but for the "moral standards" of their protagonists.

It´s nice to read a well-written story though, thanks to javmor. The usual cuckold stuff does not appeal to me. And the simple btb stories are just missing something. Cheat - walk away, that´s just too simple.

I am not sure what I feel regarding this. Divorcing was more than likely the correct thing to do but once they both realised that they needed each other, I, like others, think that should have got back together. The way this could have been achieved is if Tom finally made Deans full adoption which is long overdue. Anyway goodish tale that had me waiting for the next installment which followed in a timely manner, not like some authors on here that string out their stories with each instalment months apart. If I was scoring would have rated a 3 1/2 which Lit doesn't allow so a 3 or 4, still undecided.

JJ

First, thank you for writing this story and having courage to share it. Some interesting viewpoints and unique elements.

I was disappointed though in the inconsistency of the characters. Also, you chickened out in the end. Nothing was resolved and the reader was left hanging on the ledge.

Specifically, Kara took a job stripping to save her son. Yet, you never deal with this devotion when she is faced with the option to cheat. Yes, it was an option. Those things never occurred to her. Exploring that rabbit hole of Jazmin coming out would be an interesting twist. You started down that path in a way, but that lost any credibility once she cheated.

Keep up the writing and finish the story with an epilogue. Open ended feels like you are settling.

good story realistic ending for sure 4 stars stlcris

... Unfortunately, I'm not sure that I've ever read a story where the the main characters had less redeeming qualities. You sort of made a comeback with Tom in the final chapter but, up to that point, he was written like a cuckold in a bad Matt Moreau story. James and Richard were pretty much the same guy with the only difference being that Richard was much smoother. And, of course, we can't leave out the darling Kara. She was best described by James, as he was being ignominiously escorted from the building, as "a low rent whore". Easily the best line in the whole story.

Why in the hell didn't Tom ever go fuck some hot bimbo? If my wife did what Kara did I'd be out fucking every babe I could. Not just for revenge, not just to get even - actually to get ahead in the lovers count, but for the pleasure of it. What gives with all these cuck stories with the hot wife getting nailed by super stud while poor wimp hubby can't get laid to save his life? Two wrongs don't make it right? No but if I couldn't get laid then I guess my wife would be right that I'm a lousy lover. Maybe her cheating was justified. Look at it this way. If no other man in the world wanted my wife, why would I want her? If no other woman wanted me, why would my wife want me?  For my own self esteem I'd want to know I didn't have to settle for her when she could get laid by every Tom, Dick and Harry... 

As to comments.. Let me guess - politically Javmor you'd consider yourself a liberal. (liberals can't stand personal insults... Even when they richly deserve them) 

"I don't think it is wrong to expect the commenters to be respectful to you and each other, even if they disagree."

Disagreeing with me is disrespectful. ;) I need my safe space. Trigger word and micro-aggression free. 

One man's hateful attack is another man's free expression of their emotional reaction to a story. 

" Nor do I think it is brave to allow them to disrespect you just to prove that you can take it. You don't let people talk to you like that in regular life if you have a say so, do you?"

Heck NO!!  I beat the ever loving shit out of the disrespectful fucktards that disagree with me in real life.  /sarcasm off.

So Jav what would you do in real life is someone said to your face [pick your ugly negative over the top insult of the day]? You can't delete their spoken words. Do you slug 'em? Walk away? Flip them off? Or return the fire, ala Trump/Cruz/Bernie/Hillary? 

Many people can't stand Trump because he's disrespectful, others loath Hillary - wicked witch of the east - for a whole variety of reasons.  So do we silence Trump and Hillary (Lord have mercy on us - please)? Maybe I'll vote for Donald's wife for president. She's pretty hot. 

I was hoping...After the scene where he almost lost his son (as I said in the previous part only from something like that could come forgiveness) I was hoping that they ended together...and in a way they have ended...They ended knowing the "new" other and only time can tell if they begin a new life together...Of course the writer could have put it as an epilogue, but he decided to let each reader decide how these two will end...And by the comments we can see how many different endings the readers have...For me they will end soon or later together again...But that it's me talking...4* for the whole story

Sure, he missed her in the sense that he saw a mother figure was the missing piece in the family puzzle. He lamented that, but he had enough "manly" self-respect and introspection to understand she was flawed, and his flaws would always be a sticking point for her (no matter how some of us perceive his flaws to be insignificant to hers). The initial car fucking adultery was the straw that broke the camel's back for Tom, anything else afterwards wouldn't matter even if it would piss him off just that little but more.

So, in the end Kara needed him more than he needed her, and we can see this in how javmor79 has written her experiences but also when she admits she *needs* Tom in her life in some manner - even if it's as a platonic friend. I suspect Tom would be satisfied with Kara in his life only as a co-operative co-parent, even glad that she has reached this agreement without stooping to the 'divorced-mother' vindictive paradigm that plagues some ex-wives who put their ex-husbands through misery because they want their old lives back at any cost.

The telling thing that reinforced Tom's resolve was the reunification with his mother, and I believe he missed her support in his ordeal with Kara. Sure, he wasn't immediately forgiving of her attitude to his son, Dean, but the breakfast scene was more indicative of his mother's redeeming qualities than that of Kara's. In the end, this is the strength Tom was truly missing to put the ghost of Kara behind him: the support of his mother.

You create something, seemingly out of nothing. Your baby is beautiful in your eyes, and some others agree. But some readers think the little bugger is homely. As the 'creator', the writer feels the urge, and even the need, to defend it. The truth is, the little bugger needs to stand on its own. I feel writers need to post the story that they want to tell, and if they allow comments, let the readers discuss it. Some readers will call the writer a cuck or an asshole. That merely demonstrates how difficult life is for the reader and does not truthfully reflect on the writer. (We can't help it if the guy's wife screwed his boss and the boss' dog.) I feel that if the writer feels the need to explain his story, then he is admitting he didn't quite tell it the way he wanted. No matter how straight forward a story is, some readers will believe the story went off on a tangent the writer never intended. The Bard wrote a lot of stuff and people have discussed it for centuries, without his supervision or explanations. I often find that the writer can put out a simple story and readers will find all sorts of symbolism and meanings he never even considered. The readers often make writers look better than they are. Personal attacks reflect only on the attacker and do not diminish the writer. They are meaningless.

Seems like the maturing of the story was done as an after thought..... If the pain was as great as implied there would have been a more aggressive nature on all parts but it appears it's easier to allow fate to dictate the outcome instead of real passion or love. Btw very well written keeps you hoping till the end. And who knows what the future will hold for two wandering soles. Ain't life a bitch

to offset the asshole of LIT's 1 vote!!

For me this was a very good story. Not so long it becomes stale and hard to follow yet long enough for real drama to develop.

No navy seal, no hi tech equipment, no over the top treatment to wife.

Just hard times affecting a marriage and two people, in love, but unable to see a way through.

Well worth 5*

Having been at both ends of such a scenario, I can honestly say thank you. You gave a life and hope to both characters. They may not succeed as a marriage again, but they will remain close and there is hope for them as people and humans. Well done.

Very enjoyable series. Many people are influenced by the demons of their past and when the chips are down the demons cone back. Plus the struggle to find work after being the provider is not an easy feeling to get by for many people. Very realistic struggle and an appropriate ending.

5*

Count me among those who wanted a happier ending. NOT "saving" their marriage - THAT marriage was over. But as you yourself say, they are different people now, so instead of being good friends with the POSSIBILITY of them MAYBE marrying in the future, why couldn't you have had them marrying here?

Other thoughts:

“In her selfish anger and hurt that her husband wouldn't want to try harder” – I love how these wives who are CHEATING on their husbands, get mad that HE doesn’t fight harder!

“Having the guts to tell your mom when she's being a selfish, petty cow takes courage.” – LOL, that’s pretty much what I said in my comment on that chapter!

“mine's” – ARGH! I thought you had learned by now, it is MINE! Mine is a possessive on it’s own, it doesn’t use and apostrophe ‘s’!

“I remembered countless missed opportunities on both sides.” – I’m sick of these attempts to blame Tom! I’m not saying he’s perfect, and frankly I’m still surprised that he didn’t go over and yank Kara and Richard out of the car and kick his ass, but she owns AT LEAST 90% of the blame. Why she apparently never corrected Tom’s mistaken impression that she was claiming NO prior involvement with Richard before they fucked. If she explained the seduction, and yes, the first kiss, he MIGHT have been able to believe that was their first fuck.

“un-phased” – It’s “unfazed”.

“I would have never been able to say that I loved him. That I was sorry.” – I thought she did, but HE couldn’t get past what she had done?

“I think you owe him the truth. The complete truth.” – Not to be redundant, but shouldn’t that have come out in counseling?

“The woman looked at me with distain in her eyes.” – The word is “disdain”.

“Why did she have to fucking tell my wife? Dammit Kara!” – LOL! Why did YOU have to seduce her!

Frankly, you've been taking too much bad advice. The message here could have been that marrying for sympathy is a bad idea all round. That is a worthwhile and straightforward message. It could have been conveyed without torching any of the characters. Instead we get a confused and confusing heroine floundering from one mistake to another leaving a trail of destruction you wouldn't believe. The only ones to escape were we readers and we barely survived.

First let me address my anonymous status; I am old and cannot remember my member login information, and I lose the sheet of paper I write it down on when I register. Forgive me.

I am very impressed that your stories elicit comment from some of the best writers on Lit. Their comments are much more interesting than the rants and raves of those who just snipe from the sidelines. BTW, non-constructive comments are just plain annoying for us readers to sift through while reading the comments to compare our feelings with those of others. I read and consider the constructive feedback to your stories and my blood pressure rises as I wade though the garbage.

I am very impressed with your comments regarding comments and your own writing; it feels like I am sitting in on a conversation with a friend.

I am impressed with your writing. Thank you for your effort.

Best regards,

Wally in Michigan

Javmor. Extremely well done. I probably sit in the group that wished for a full RAAC & Tom & Kara still might get there. But you have taken us through the emotions & the details of the deep flaws in both that got us to where we landed & where they can at least now look forward. Fabulous writing. You certainly brought out all the key issues & the characters very well. Favourited & 5* if you turn the scores on. Ken.

I think that attacking someone personally over a story makes you small, and whatever needs it fills in the attacker, doesn't make it right, or give them insight into some wonderful revelation on how the world works, or give them a carte blanche to hurt others. I put both the author and the commenter in that category of being the ones who are attacked in a personal way.

My personal attitude and how to deal with an attacker, is based on playing many years of football. It has to do with a perversion of the golden rule. Basically it is, do unto others as they do unto you. In football, it is a survival thing.

The question comes up, what can you do about personal attacks. Taking a look at it from the point of view of the needy people that attack others personally, their motivation is, because no one knows who they are, when they use their anonymous literotica names, they can do it and not get any repercussions to their action. Kind of cowardly approach, eh what. The only thing that you can do defend yourself, is to pull their remarks. This isn't like the NRA who are trying to get you defend yourself with weapons. This is more like just taking their guns away so they can't hurt others.

Many are disappointed with the ending, and I understand why. I kind of expected that. I know that they made a good case for working it out, but I felt this ending was more appropriate. Contrary to belief, it wasn't influenced by the audience.

I felt that this was appropriate because I felt that these two needed to get to know each other. They had evolved. I felt that they would stand a greater chance being together if they became friends. I guess I could have put a brief epilogue flashing to the future to indicate that they made it, but I felt that was overused. I decided to leave a strong indication that they would make it, rather than just come out and say it. Plus, I wanted to be unpredictable. Any story that I write in the future will never be set in stone from the beginning. I like that.

I also wanted to say that I don't do BTB, but I ENJOYED writing the Richard scene. It was probably the most fun part to write out of the entire story. Not saying that all stories will have my guy kick someone's ass, but it was fun.

Thank you all for reading. And I thank you for your comments. Each chapter came with less and less useless comments. On the fourth chapter, I hardly intervened at all.

One last note. Batman Vs. Superman is kind of disappointing. At least the first half. 1 1/2 hours of buildup, 1 hour of asskicking action. Not really a part of this story, but I felt it worth saying. LOL

Honestly, i really liked the ending. If you had wanted them to reconcile that would be chapter 6 in my opinion. Leaving them getting mentally healthy and putting themselves back together as individuals worked for this chapter and worked as an ending.

Retired Dancers are a handful. Especially when you add the French Canadian Quebecois into the emotional mix!!!! Beautiful but Maddening lol

I will join the group who is not entirely happy about the ending, even though I have only read the author's comment about that shared opinion. I probably feel that way because I doubt I could be friends with an ex wife to the extent the story portrays them to be. Yes, another chapter could expand that friendship into getting back together and I would not have a problem with that. The reason behind my feelings is that you have only scratched the surface on what is going on in their lives. In making that statement I realize this is not a novel, there are limitations on how much dialog and narrative can be presented to the reader. The story, any story really, is essentially a series of vignettes around which we use our mind to fill in the rest as we see appropriate based on our own experiences and personalities.

For instance, is Kara or Tom dating? If Kara is dating someone and presumably having sex, is Tom going to be able to handle that when the potential of resuming a romantic relationship is considered? If so, how would that affect the "friendship" that they have developed with each other, would they become more like most ex couples that interact only when necessary? Kara is portrayed as very attractive, so she is going to get male, (or female) attention. The same goes for Tom and how Kara would react to dating, but this is left silent. Aside from Richard and the other cast of characters where she worked, Kara seems to be invisible to men, which is almost impossible in reality. Now, she could have taken a vow of celibacy/non dating, but this is not mentioned and might have added to the story line.

I don't mean to be too negative, as I think the story is pretty good. The scene with Richard and the baseball bat is very well done. While I can nit pic here and there, it is a good story about normally flawed people, which is more real than the perfect constructs we see too often here. I like the story, but there just seems to be a few things missing, maybe another five or six chapters could fix that. (-:

wow talk about political correctness carried to an extreme, she intentionally whored herself for a job then carried on an affair while trying to the man she whored to fired, while destroying her marriage, went back cheated in adultery again, and the husband is to blame. Get real, people need to accept responsibility for their own actions. She did it the husband did not put a gun to her head and demand she become a lying, cheating, whoring, adulterous slut.

Now they are both free from their demons and can move on with there lives either as a couple or separate. I just don't get the naysayers and there closed hateful minds if you don't burn the female for her own selfish actions , cheating or other, she has to die. So do these humans belong to another religion and follow shira law or Isis. Behead and stone women to death. But men can do what they want. These people do not see past there noses and cannot think at all. So sad that so many see death and destruction as the only answer. He is without sin should cast the first stone , is a pretty revelant statement. As far as our liberal justice system I cannot see a women or men like Haley Barry paying her x boyfriend in California. who has affairs being rewarded with alimony.

Pretty good story.

When young and an idealist i would have voted to hang Kara. Now older, i wish i had a wife like her instead of the sexless, puritanical wife i have. We need more women like Kara who need a good fucking at times. If she were mine id be glad to let her have a free pass every month or two.

Yes, at my age, ive learned that unless it's diseased, a little strange dick doesnt ruin good pussy and there arent enough good looking women to allow most men to ever have a chance to have a round with a beautiful one. Every guy who works hard and pays taxes should be allowed true pleasure on occasion.

Strangely, many seem to want you to write about people who are perfect and live perfect lives when those stories would not be interesting.

When i was younger i NEVER was more interested dicking with my computer than making love with my wife as Tom was and i never asked her if she wanted to screw. Tom took Kara and her love and charms for granted and didnt deserve her.

Still, as a dr i will say, nearly falling off a cliff and dying isnt a reason to be hospitalized. Wink

Relationship issues are never black and white situations. I've noticed a building pattern that authors who attempt to explore more complicated relationship issues are knocked hard by readers who seem to imprint their own issues on the story being presented. This was a very interesting story with rather well-developed characters

My only wish is that the editor would be more diligent about catching the typos and fixing the English, e.g. the pronoun "I" is only nominative, and never the object.

The story was neither good or bad.

What is bad though is authors who turn off the voting and sensor comments.

No matter what the justification they attempt it shows a very thin skin and a personality that is unwilling to take the harshest criticism.

There is a saying that goes if you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen.

One simple solution would be to not allow the authors to disable voting and sensor comments.

This author seems to be part of the generation that cannot and will not accept anything they deem hurtful, he wants to select his readership and that is very weak.

An annoying story. Annoying because the underlying plot and structure are so good, but the story itself is so weak. Character development that is crucial to understanding why things happen are not presented till after the event has occurred.

I've enjoyed pretty much all the stories that javmor has posted here, but this one leaves me irritated because I think he could have handled it so much better.

Lance

Although not germane to my comments above, in this chapter:

A slow leisurely ride up an easy trail so that Sammy does not tire. And on the way down Tom is so tired he can't call out when Dean dashes off?

A somewhat chastening but realistic ending with some hope for the future for both of them.

I would like this to be followed up with a romance when they finally do sort themselves out and get back together but with some home truths from both along the way. Realistic reconciliation can be very difficult and challenging for an author. It is important not to gloss over her treachery and betrayal nor his neglect etc It would be very interesting to follow as you weave your tale toward that final conclusion.

excellent writing.

I was hoping for them to be together by the end.

A great job on her character.

I went from feeling for her, to disliking her, to hoping for them to remarry.

Thats good writing. I am a sucker for a happy ending though.

Please keep it up.

thanks for sharing your stories.

To assuage any angry, idealistic libs, you could let Tom have a couple of good fuck sessions with Kara's stripper friend and then things would be 'fair' (and balanced). Ha.

Fidelity never seemed to garner Bill Clinton any animosity.

Tho I feel the story should not end here, it has and I can live with that, I want to thank you for writing a story of interest that has merit, I am seeing so few good written stories in LW lately. Ever thought of not reading the comments till the story is over. Many a time I will not make a comment till the end. I have a hard time believing that the comments by anyone who will not sign their comments should not be turned off. Again thanks for the story

First off, I am neither an English teacher or a literary critic.

I read all the parts to this story and ended up with very positive feelings for it. The last two parts were to me the strongest. As one person commented relationships are complicated.......as are things where strong emotions are involved. Our 2 major protagonists had good and bad character traits. What is worse infidelity or very poor communication? To put it another way, should we burn the b_____ or reconcile the couple back into a potentially flawed Union?? Shoot me if I am a romantic but I initially wanted them remarried at the end.....until I read ALL of the story including author's words at the end. Now I believe only the future holds a final answer for this couple;both of whom have exited a crucible changed and ,to me, still growing.

Just wished you had developed Sandra more. Thanks for sharing

Ed

I am always amazed at the culture or the idea of blaming the seducer or the other man and considering punishing him as kind of just or deserved. You see the seducer or the other man is one of thousands if not more of the low life, opportunists, or horn dogs who are living out there, if not him then somebody else. punishing the seducer suggests a terrible theory, all the wives, mothers, sisters, are just whores in the waiting for the right seducer to release them of their marriage vows. In my teen years when I was struggling with my first few dates and when martha cheated on me with the captain of the football team and i came back home with a broken nose from a fight with him, my mother asked me this, if you were in his place would you have done the same thing, sleep with the girl who was giving it to you easy or not, when i tried to say that i wouldnt do that she said i know because i raised you, but remember this, not all boys think like you, and if you lock a girl in a castle with a thousand doors and she wants to cheat she will do it, and if you put a girl among a thousand handsome sweet talking men and she wants to remain loyal she will remain that way, it is the same in every situation, men choose and women decide, so find a woman who remain loyal no matter what. I did that and life has never been better.

Well written. Character and plot development are very mature, authentic enough to be believable, and elicit a range of reader emotional responses. A 5 from me.

Did he learn how much of a selfish asshole he was? No. Everything was everyone else fault. His wife sucked another mans cock to get her job back because he couldn't find one. He didn't even feel bad that she had to do it. Richard seduced his wife, he didn't accept that he drove her into the affair. He degraded her. He insulted her. He used her past against her and at no time does he accept responsibility for his actions.

The whole hero scene was crap. It allowed Tom to not have to accept the consequences of his actions and that is insulting.

This was a ill conceived story from the start. In my opinion one should NEVER begin a story without already knowing the beginning, middle and end and how you are going to connect the three. Planning creates successful fiction.

I actually feel that you were already well aware that this story was never going to be remotely close to your previously high standards as I think you treated it as a kind of experiment of trying a different process. The true reasons you left off scoring and censored dissent is far closer to you wanting to keep it a controlled experiment (rather then the free for all that keeps lit feedback so entertaining) instead of the reasons you have provided.

For being willing to take risks and grown yourself as a writer I commend you. However as you may have gathered I feel ( both narratively and literally) that this experiment while possibly opening up new processes for you has not been a great success as a piece of fiction. It reads as a very laboured narrative for a reader to extract perspective and information out of, the characters have a off putting disconnect with the reader and the actual writing is painfully less florid and lacks descriptive power compared to your previous works.

I'm very sorry to say that while the effort is noted and appreciated the final result isn't really very good at all....for you at least.

Frankly I expected much more .... You are a solid 4.5 stars + author but this isn't up to those standards.

Sandra deserves her own story.

I tend to judge LW stories, rightly or wrongly, by a few criteria: Does the author care enough about the story to minimize or hopefully eliminate silly mistakes in spelling, tense, person, etc? Does the writer make me care what happens within the story line? That means the story is worth my time to read. Are the characters rounded? I prefer characters that are flawed. Humans are flawed and I like stories about humans. Can I "see" the characters in my head? If so, the author has painted them well.

In this story I became invested in the characters. I cared how their lives were going to be going forward. That speaks volumes about the skill of the writer. Are there things I didn't like? Sure. Tom was a dick in action and thought. Javmor tried to salvage him but not quite, from my view. The leisurely bike trip up the easy trail for the baby boy's benefit leaves dad exhausted. Really?

The very fact that the writing evokes emotion about how these fictional characters interact means this is a successfully written story. Please accept my virtual 5* rating.

Great tale. It was a perfect ending. The marriage is dead but the future hasn't been written yet. Everyone gets along and the possibilities are endless. Excellent series.

Five Stars

You can usually judge the quality of a story by the number of comments it receives. If that's true, then Javmor is among the greatest writers on this site -- certainly in this genre. I was under the impression that Chapter Four was the final chapter, because I couldn't possibly imagine what more could be written about the characters in this story. Man, was I wrong.

There are many aspects of this story that I liked, and some I didn't like. I'll start with the negatives first:

-- The switching perspectives. I didn't feel it was necessary, and it made it difficult to follow the story. When this chapter included yet another perspective (Richard's), I had to stop reading and backtrack to figure out what was happening and who was narrating.

-- Tom's character. Up until this chapter, I didn't understand what type of person he was or what motivated him. I don't know whether it was intentional or not, but it seemed like you (Javmor) held back on that until the end in order to turn it into a "big reveal." (Or maybe I'm just not perceptive enough to have noticed earlier.) I think it would have been more enjoyable to know upfront that Tom's attraction to Kara was partly/largely based on his self-identification as the "hero" who would save not only her but Dean.

-- I felt like you were pandering to the BTB crowd in this chapter by including the two superfluous confrontations between Tom and Richard, and Kara and Richard's wife. The former confrontation was just silly. Why would Tom suddenly feel the need to beat this guy with a baseball bat after so many months had passed since he first learned of their affair, and months after his divorce? And for Tom to use blackmail on Richard to advance Kara's career was pure nonsense.

-- Kara's confession to Richard's wife was equally silly. What was the point? To make herself feel better and ease her guilt? How did that help Richard's wife by telling her? To me, it seemed like pandering to the readers who always demand that the cheater come clean with everyone involved and receive her comeuppance.

Now, what I liked:

-- There are no cartoonish, one-dimensional characters in this story. These are complex and flawed people who reflect the type of people you may know in real life.

-- I would never attempt to write a story from a woman's perspective simply because I can't write what I haven't experienced. I appreciate the fact that when you did write from Kara's perspective you sought outside help from women. You could have taken the lazy way out and winged it, but you respected your readers (and the art of writing) enough to do the extra research. Kudos.

-- You included subplots so that this wasn't merely your standard LW story involving a husband and wife. It also included a complex dynamic between father and stepson, son and mother, and even husband and wife's best friend. You resolved each of those three relationships in a satisfying way.

There is more that I could say, but I've written too much already. (Yet another testament to the quality of this story is the LENGTH of the comments it has generated!)

Congrats on creating this instant LW classic. Keep up the good work.

I stand by my comments on Pt. 4 because I believe them to be true. Kara was not fully embracing her role in the failure of their marriage, and even though she confesses I still am not convinced that she truly believes how critical her role was and that she is still relying on her view of Tom's reactions and own inner demons to placate her own guilt. I do, however, admire your choice for her honesty in fully disclosing and the fact that there is blame all around, I simply believe that they both seem to use the other as a scapegoat for their poor behavior. I still say that this is a consistent choice in your writing and perhaps an underlying reason you receive highly emotional comments from some litegents.

I was afraid Richard was gone from the story. Making him a serial cheater was a choice I'm not sure I'd agree with but I suppose it helped make the easy seduction of Kara more palatable to you and some readers. If he were really and truly the snake in the grass you eventually make him out to be I doubt two sexual sessions would have been enough. He would not have had as much control of the situation that normal sexual predators need. The justice side of me liked that he paid some price for his part, albeit a token choice considering how much you worked through the other aspects of the story.

I didn't always enjoy the journey as I read this story but if evaluating it in its entirety I'd say it was a good job and a good read. I don't always like your plot choices but I admire your dedication to writing.

I do agree with DrPope you post stories and write as you go and therefore you lose the integrity of characters and plot as they morph from your original idea to those that you gather from commenters. Write your story then post. You can still learn from comments but perhaps the stories themselves will make more sense to future readers.

enjoyed this little adventure and I believe that the whole piece is worthy of a 4/5 rating. On the whole I feel that you have given the complexity of human emotion a good run for its money and that the outcome was as good as could be. Kara eventually dealt with her own issues honestly and, although there were elements of her attitude and behaviour which were reprehensible, I felt she arrived at a point of accepting that responsibility. Tom, on the other hand, you continued to portray as the "hero" figure. "Heroic" in his saving of Dean; "heroic" in his "attempts" to save the marriage; "heroic" in confronting Richard; "heroic" in having Sandra try to bolster his self esteem. Tom did not accept his responsibility for his failures in the relationship which, imho, contributed far more to the breakdown of their relationship. His chief failure was that of emotional immaturity and consequent insecurity. A flaw often displayed in the LW genre. Even amongst the better writers there still exists that "man" thing. Spoilt what was otherwise an extremely interesting series.

Good story, but you took the cowards way out... it should ended, one way or another...

Fantastic, well written story. However, I agree with other commenters. You need to write an ending to give closure. Positive or negative, please write an ending.

Chapter one was good, the last chapter was ok, but a cop out really. The writing overall was good, the grammar and spelling could be improved.

When I read the chapters in the middle I felt like I was reading about my SIL with bi-polar disorder. Just messed up with no flow.

You should turn scoring back on. Saying that the scoring is meaningless is really insulting to the authors that put a lot of time and effort into their work and score high because of it. Good stories consistently score well!

Despite the truly horrifying ledge scene, as a father of 4 kids and grandfather of 2, the rest does not bring it up to a five for me. The emotional content is not there with the best of the best dtversion, QHML, Rehnquist, lovecraft, HDK,Adrina Leverkuhn, Laptop, Francis MComber, DQS,etc. But it was very good. Very realistic in most aspects. But honestly if you can hold a wriggling 9 yr old kid for more than a minute with one arm, then you are superman. I had no problems just suspending disbelief and moving fwd.

I think I honestly dont approach your stories fairly, due to my dislike for you personally engendered by your editorial comments before and after stories, and in the comments. I find myself resisting the urge to bait you, to draw you out of hiding in the comments, I resist finding things to disagree about, to pick at later, instead of just reading like I do some others.

I have given this advice to other writers, you might want to consider not giving any further insights into your personality, and just communicate with those author's you respect via email, etc on the side. I dont think I am the only one who detects some arrogance and self satisfaction in your tone, and it is off putting.

Story was very good. Unfortunately..... In the future I would never see it. I understand turning off the scoring to piss off a certain type of reader however you do it to the detriment of yourself as well as future readers.

Scoring is by no means perfect but is is a good indicator of what to expect. It may not be "fair" that I generally only look at stories rated high 3's and above but in my defense I don't have a lot of free time and a 4+ rated story will rarely let you down. So I would never see this great story in the future. If it were my site I would have a 1-10 as well as a rating for the comments of the commenters, that would straighten it all out - lol.

Just something to think about as an author, you may lose out on a lot of possible future reads simply because the reader had no "reviews" to go by.

Part 5 was a far more substantive look at dealing with their issues. Full credit to javmor79 for taking that on. 4*+ rating in my book. If you look at my comment after part 4, you can see I was frustrated by Kara & her viewpoint … heck I found moving the narrator around to be frustrating, but Kara’s narration struck a nerve... that’s not necessarily a bad thing, and oftentimes a good one.

So pretty darn good is the summary judgement, with the following suggestion:

In my opinion, the story would have been far more interesting and impactful if you had expanded part 5 and shrunk parts 1-4. That is, it would have been better to focus much more of the story’s weight on the most impactful part… on the journey from discovery to some sort of peace (i.e., the journey from near the end of part 4 to end of part 5). I’ll admit that is terribly difficult to do, but having a paragraph (OK up to 1 page) “fix” everything with one part dramatic visit to a strip club + 2 parts of 6 months’ worth of counseling … …

... … well it seemed to neat and all wrapped up like a Christmas present (bow included) from “it’s a wonderful life”. Their pain and separation seemed real enough, but the BFF ending so abruptly after seemed false (I was tempted to use “almost complete RAAC ending” – but refrained). Tom’s closing remarks seemed far too well adjusted for someone with Tom’s flaws, who is dealing with the loss of a wife, marriage and working his way through therapy…

If you’re going to have the characters move from trauma to peace, that journey is one I want to be part of… take me along (especially since we both want me to care about your characters). That is where most of the characters’ development takes place… make that part real for your readers & you’ve got a classic.

Thanks.

Verbose!! Interesting issues are addressed,with a meandering plot.It's a chore reading your story.

Generally I enjoy lengthy stories but I find javmor79 doesn't appeal to me ,in the long form.

Thanks for the story.

AMerryman

Post this shit on those type sites where the cucks and wimps appreciate this garbage.

thank you for your insights

The story as posted is wonderfully written with great character development. However the ending leaves something to be desired, closure for your male protagonist. That leaves a great opportunity for a follow-up story to guide Tom into the arms of a woman whether it is Kara or someone else.

I suppose it depends on which end of the barrel you stand

If you prefer, I could just call you an idiot like Harry ; )

Solid 4 stars. It had a lot more going on in internal analysis than most, exploring the important WHY she did it which had nothing to do with dick size, jungle fever,or trading up (however, methinks she had a trace of upgrade in her soul. But that is me adding to the story)

So while I liked it, I did not love it. I must confess to getting a bit misty at the cliff scene, so if I voted...maybe you get the upgrade to 5.

Usual Javmor quality, though there were errors I noticed in the first read.

The comments are the core. The sarcasm is a bonus (for me). If I am not entertained by the story, I might as well entertain myself in the comments.

I did not think you could run this story 5 chapters without dragging...but I was mostly wrong. Good job.

Sorry, I REALLY liked your efeorts.

And failed. I note that you got a lot of longer comments, several of which made interesting points. Not all of them negative. You still got the short, bombastic comments (Thank you Bonnie for always being the same. Some crap never changes). But most people seemed to take the stories ending chapter to heart and made what could be considered reasonable comments. To me, you took the easy way out. You didn't have Tom BTB, yet there was no reconciliation - they didn't remarry. One thing that bothered me? Richard would have sent Tom to prison for breaking into his house and assaulting him. That would have been a no-brainer and I don't understand how you failed to see that. What happened to Richard, his wife and children? But your solution to Tom and Kara's marital strife seemed to not include the long term impact on the kids. That was disappointing. Since you're trying to make true-to-life points, that particular oversight was a major flaw. Overall this wasn't a bad story. It was too lengthy given the content. At the end the feeling I was left with was dissatisfaction at their resolutions. Obviously not all people will feel the same. But given all the therapy they'd gone through it would seem that a happier ending would have been in the offing. This just wasn't a satisfying ending. Sorry. Maybe next time a few less life lessons and a more enticing story?

It was an emotional roller coaster ride and interesting tale. I liked the ups and downs of all your characters. All had flaws but not many of us are perfect. Really enjoyed you writing. Thanks for writing and sharing.

...the Anony who just wrote the missive titled "So you STILL insisted on teaching the readers something?"

Which "life lesson" would that be? Never marry a stripper? Never try to work on a marriage once it's over? Never, ever forgive anyone once a penis enters a vagina? Never care about a kid that isn't yours? Never attack your ex-wife's former lover with a baseball bat? It's such a simplistic comment for such a multi-layered story.

Next, Anony claims Javmor "took the easy way out" by not tacking on a paint-by-numbers BTB or reconciliation ending. Say what? Wouldn't that have been (far) easier??

Finally, Anony claims this story failed by not including more detail about the long-term impact on the kids. Then, in his very next sentence, he/she complains that the story was too lengthy.

Wow. Just...wow.

I am one of those who believe in "happily ever after" stories. While this story didn't go that far, the ending was still a reasonable alternative.. As you have probably notice from some of my other critiques, I am not a big fan of corporate management types. I blame that group of people for the recession and economic downturn of the past ten years. Many of them are exactly like the two managers you portrayed in this story. In 1960 Eleanor Roosevelt coined the phrase"managerial elite" when referring to the Kennedy Administration. That attitude within corporate America is still very much evident today, as displayed in this by Richard. and Kara's other boss. All in all not a bad story. It was well written and each chapter complimented the last. Keep up the good work.

RVWS

I had some quibbles, but overall this was a solid addition to your collection of stories. I enjoyed some of the more playful tongue in cheek additions ('Supernatural' reference, a literal cliffhanger, etc.). I do think that you try to spread the blame equally to both parties and then failed to back that up within the bounds of the story. Tom had issues, but it was Kara that tanked the marriage for the most part. Tom's 'Hero' complex is, to be honest, something most men suffer from. We all want to be the guy who rescues the damsel in distress and has her look up to him. There isn't anything wrong with that. His failing was in disrespecting her because of her past as a stripper. Even if it was mostly subconscious, he always had that slight feeling of superiority that, when yanked out from beneath him by his unemployment led to a deep period of depression that was worse that it would probably have been if he thought of her as an equal.

Kara, on the other hand, intentionally tanked her marriage. She engaged in first an intellectual affair and then a physical one in spite of multiple warnings, both from herself and from her friend. Then afterwards, she continuously failed to own up to her actions, both to Tom and in counselling by refusing to admit to the lead up to the physical affair. She still, even then, seemed to have no respect for Tom. The use of a crisis to bring them all back together felt heavy handed only in the type of crisis used.

I was happy to see that you didn't make her the weak willed idiot wife that most stories seem to have, at least after that first slip. All of the arguments she used to verbally castrate her boss were just as valid before she felt forced to blow him as afterwards. It made her victory over him feel less deserved.

I was disappointed that Richard turned out to be the two dimensional predator alpha male villain that many LW stories use. He could have been used to more effect if he was a tad less predatory and more just someone caught up in an infatuation that got out of hand. You often say you don't like to use obvious villains in your story, but Richard and Frank before him seem to fit the stereotype.

In either case, I did enjoy the story and look forward to more from you in the future.

Interesting series about a couple of flawed but likable characters. By the end I was rooting for both Tom and Kara. Writing was sell paced and the plot interesting and occasionally erotic. I really don't have any constructive criticism on the writing - characters were credible and petty good mix of dialogue and description.

BTW Richard was fortunate that Tom didn't do some serious damage, but that was consistent with Tom's character.

This is a very compelling, well written, thoughtful story about real Iife circumstances and consequences. Thank you. xoxoxoxo Annette

Two people change so much, there is no going back, they get on with their life. Good ending to a well written story. I probably would have the cliff hanger bit less dramatic. Yeah I like drama, a story needs it, but this was too unlikely.

But what the hay, if they make a movie of it, lt'll be different

I wonder sometimes why God made flys, mosquitoes, and angry, bitter people. It's a mystery

Chilley

until the whole story was posted. Given your opening about being unsure about the direction I wondered if the story would ever be finished.

I guess I'd probably fall into the category of wanting them to reconcile and so found the ending depressing.

Still it was a good story and your writing is always excellent so I would have given it a 5* if there was voting.

After parts 3/4 I found Kara pretty hard to be sympathetic toward. But the development of her character did a lot to change that. Also, unlike swingerjoe, I saw her confession to Richard's wife as significant. The most important contrition, of course, is that toward her husband, whom she betrayed. But, given her desire to get back with him, it can be seen as self-serving. It's arguable how helpful it was to Richard's wife (I'd argue that one is better off knowing the truth, others may differ). But the significance to me is that it showed her awareness of her actions being wrong, even where it didn't affect her personal interest.

Some fault for Tom is also legitimate. In most cases, where the wayward spouse is not a complete amoral asshole, there is some fault for both parties in letting a marriage get to a bad state, even though I tend to think Tom took a bit too much blame. However, he distinguished between his shortcomings and her decision to go outside the marriage instead of working to fix things. I liked that.

While the ending may not have been 100% enjoyable, and the characters weren't always loveable, it was thought-provoking and interesting. I enjoyed it quite a bit.

I tend to agree with your comment decisions. Some commenters contribute zero, or want to discuss other stories, or just want to be assholes to each other.

I have no problem wanting to delete those comments.

The 'uno bombers' probably deserve the same.

....where things were really out of whack earlier, they, Tom and Kara had both moved to a better place in this final(?) chapter.

I think Tom's conscience might have suffered for it, but he would have been better off to find a girlfriend or a FWB for a time. His recent history would devastate any man's self respect. I do not use the PC term self-esteem, because I do not believe it comes anywhere near to the core of the male psyche. The meat on the bone and the iron in the superstructure for men are rooted in self-respect. This is not semantic play.

The attack on Richard was well restrained and far more deserved than you presented....actually, my BTB tendency here is well muted by the fact of my coming to like Gloria(?), Richard's soon to be ex-wife in the two scenes she occupied. I hope she wins BIG against this arrogant prick and repeat offender. He needs an efficiency on the lower west side about 10 blocks from work and with no car, so he must take the bus or walk. It'd do him a world of good to be brought so low.

I think Tim and Sandra need to spend a weekend together in a cabin. Why?

Kara loves them both. It would devastate her, but teach her compassion by harsh experience.....and while prostituting herself at work, Sandra needs to reconnect with herself as a woman. I didn't say they needed to screw each other blind, although if it happened, no harm, no foul. But Kara would assume the worst and spend her weekend in the same hell she put Tom through....for years. She seems the type that can never fully comprehend the feelings she arouses in others, with her selfish, wanton acts....unless she experiences them first hand.

Ahhh, maybe not. That would change the whole dynamic and possibly irreparably alter this struggling relationship. It would , however, feel a little more balanced from Tom's perspective.... And no, I don't subscribe to the "two wrongs don't make right" philosophy. Mine is more like, "do your best, find balance, make it right where you can".... Well. Not that it matters to anyone but me.

Nice work. Thanks and carry on!

In the way life has changed over the last forty years it is easy to understand. People started to think that their opinions mattered more than anyone else's. If you look at the way people have become a society of "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" you will begin to understand. It started small, you know just little things that to the majority of people they just weren't concerned about it, whatever it was. But then these same people thought that if nobody was going to complain, then maybe they could do it with other things as well. That one slip of not protesting the little things has led to a large host of laws and standards that have been changed in this country and even most of the rest of the world. Changes that the majority of people didn't really want but just didn't voice their opinion. So what the minority wanted is what happened. The hell with everyone else.

It doesn't matter if it was the law about smoking, drinking ,gun control or maybe it was the changes in the way you raise your children or the responsibility that was once instilled in most kids by their parents. It was taken away from the majority because we didn't speak up then and know it to late.

I have been a member hare for many years and I like to read the comments and sometimes even add my thoughts. It has always amazed me that the number of people who sim to complain the most have never written a story. Once again they are right and we are wrong. My own thoughts are that it's about the CONTENT and not the grammar or punctuation.

By the way, it's would be 5*****. Very good.

HDR is always right.

Steve2244 is right.

I kind of wonder what ...wess.... said, but not much.

Many take life far too seriously.

5

I meant HDK.

I wasn't going to read this story, and I still haven't, probably won't.

I did read HDK's wonderful comment. I wished I'd heard something like that much earlier. The other comments run the usual gamut.

About this story. Jav. you've not given readers the opportunity to vote. That's your call, and I won't deny you that right. Just the same I don't have all day to read every single story that gets posted so I do look at the voting. If something falls below a certain threshold I don't bother. That, added with an awareness you have permitted voting on other stories just leaves me cold. Might have been a five, I usually give fives, but I mean why bother.

Jedd Clampett

The sad truth is the system is being abused by trolls and there are a plethora of solid stories which are languishing in the realms of obscurity because most users will skip stories just by judging them by their erroneous ratings. Carvohi who is a good author just admitted to skipping stories in this manner and I feel he may have missed a few gems which have voting turned off.

HDK and other upper tier authors can wax lyrical about having thick skin and being brave enough to rely on the correct ratings to prevail, but again, these authors are well established and can depend on their rightly earned reputation and faithful followers to give them a consistently high rating on their stories. This privilege does not extend to other arguably "lower" tiered authors (with just as much energetic verve and potential I might add) who get inevitably panned by the usual suspects. These authors have a hard time establishing a foothold in the reputation stakes because stories are not read but misrepresented with a false score.

Don't get me wrong, there are obvious merits to having the ratings enabled. Unfortunately, the readership of Literotica is plagued with a minority of trolls whose impact leaves a greater footprint than genuine readers. 'Tis a sad truth...

Before the voting was turned off, I think the rating for this story was in the 2's. Can anyone honestly say that this story was worth 2 stars?

For a while, Ditverson didn't allow voting. Yet no one said anything to him about it. His name alone will get you to read. This series has consistently been given a bad rep from the start. It wasn't judged fairly. People were more pissed that the author was deleting nonsense comments than they were at any error in the story. Yet everyone wants to complain about him turning voting off.

Until the last chapter, people bashed this author. They called this story predictable, even though it was anything but. They said that it lacked imagination, simply because they THOUGHT that it was going to fit a pattern. Even when it didn't, they still held their claim.

I thought this story was well written. It did stutter step in the beginning, but it rapidly picked up pace. I really hope people take this story as an example to not judge too quickly. Let the story play out. Take each part as it comes, instead of judging it by what you think is going to happen.

I enjoyed so many things about this story. You let us get to know Kara and sympathize with her before she fell. Yes, I was shouting at her "No! Don't do it!" just like those annoying people at movies, and I felt terrible when she did. You didn't saddle any of your characters with the burden of being perfect. The ending might not have been what their friends wished for them, but it made sense. Even at the end, if Kara could do it again with Richard and guarantee Tom wouldn't find out, I believe she would.

I do wish the story had been better edited. It flows very nicely, and I would just get rolling when I would be brought up short by an error:

I saw that her's were watering

He would never be mine's

Tears streamed my eyes

in the throws of passion

all occur in the first 1/3 of a page of part 5. I know it's hard to get everything right, but fixing errors like this allows others to enjoy your story more.

There's been quite a lot of legitimate sociological research done in the last 15 years of so about the effect of stripping on romantic relationships. One book to start with is "Stripped: Inside the Lives of Exotic Dancers" by Dr. Bernadette Barton, NYU Press, 2006.

This has been a long comment, but it was a long story. Thank you for writing and sharing it.

Most parts were a good read, but I hate the attempts of blame-shifting from the cheater (who did not own to her mistakes till mid of the very last chapter) to the victim, whose only failure IMO was to take his undeserved unemployment not so well.

It was not only the physical act of cheating on Kara's side, but the missing respect and the dishonesty. It clearly was not the "Jazmin"-part of her character but clearly "Kara" who cheated and lied by omission. One commenter saw 90% of the blame on her side - that rang true to me.

What I furthermore could not understand was the author's total skipping of the six month of first marriage-counseling. And why didn't Javmor write Kara's final confession in direct speech? These two failures took the story down from a possible higher scoring.

I think by now regular LW readers recognise that the average score received by a LW story is irrelevant to the true worth of the story. It's unfortunate that, as Frasnost and Lex1 said, some readers may miss the occasional gem because they assess a story by its score. But they'll wake up to reality if they read enough in the LW category.

And if they do assess stories by their average score, are they any more likely to read stories that had no score at all?

As I have said in comments to other stories, there are many readers of LW stories who seem to have damaged psyches and get their kicks from one-bombing stories in which wives have done things they claim to hate. Authors provide a service by allowing them their little pleasures with their angry one star.

Swingerjoe has started a campaign for turning off scores. I am one of the opposition to that campaign.

L

I go by the scores to decide whether or not I'm going to read a story, especially along story like this. Some authors I'll read a lower scoring stories and see for myself if it was scored correctly. Like the esteemed Mr Clampett, I have a threshold that I won't read below.

I also read comments religiously. Sometimes they are more entertaining than the story. A lot of times certain people's comments let me know if I want to waste my time or not. I'm on the fence about this story, especially knowing that negative comments have been removed. I have no real gauge of this story.

The bottom line for me is people know what they want to read, and nobody appreciates being suckered into reading something that wasn't their cup of tea. Allowing scoring at least gives an indication of the stories content. My two cents anyway. I'll leave a comment if I decide to read this.

1. A wife's adultery, when driven by lust and curiosity, should be understood and sympathized. I mean, she's just a horny infatuated woman, and it was just sex!

2. When a wife cheats on her husband the husband almost always is at least partly to blame. Why didn't he protect her, or dissuade her, or keep her adequately charmed?

3. If your adulterous wife says the right words at the right time you should forgive or overlook her actions that indicate most of her words are empty, or are lies. I mean, just because it was the best goddamned sex I've ever had, and remains in my memory as nights of orgasmic bliss, has no bearing on the probability that I will fuck around on you the next time an opportunity for the best cheating sex of my life comes along. I really really mean it.

The reality of a woman cheating on her husband, and children, is beautifully described by commenter firaso1. A woman inclined to cheat will always find an excuse, if the temptation and opportunity is right, in her mind. A woman determined to be be loyal and virtuous is unfazed, UNFAZED, by any number or quality of seducers. The reason a woman is civilization's epitome of virtue is not because of her strength to resist temptation, but because of her decision to rise above temptation. She remains loyal and faithful not because she might get caught, but because she could never live with herself surrendering that virtue that can never be regained. Attempting to make excuses and justifications for adultery makes you appear soiled, and contemptuous.

So to promote your agenda, well, yours and your accomplices, you contrived characters and events and plot devices so lame that I kept wanting to throw my laptop against the wall in disgust. Kara is a strong resourceful survivor who does what she has to do to provide for and protect her son. Except that when she now has two sons to shelter and protect, and a husband, she jeopardizes her sons' home life and family because she's just gotta get a taste of some strange cock that she finds really arousing. What's a girl to do when Mr. Dream Cock is knocking against her labia? And when the guy who pulled her out of her stripper life misery needs her patience and understanding, all she can think about is, well, what have you done for me lately, Mr. unemployed pathetic loser?

So what is annoying is not your plot, nor your resolution, but the contrived contradictory schizophrenic behavior of your characters. It was unfortunately lame and obnoxious. Characters who are evil and conniving and sinister make for great dramatic suspenseful stories. Characters who stumbling inept morons are boring and embarrassing. Really, she didn't understand what Richard was after? She didn't understand what it feels like to be desperate for a job, so desperate that you might become a stripper, or suck a cock? She thought denying or lying about her affairs and deception was no more harmful to her marriage than her husbands suspicions and distrust of her motives and actions? If just made your story stupid and irritating, especially when it could have been so much more. So much more. I agree, you got some very poor self-serving advice from those who so wish your agenda was true. It's total Bull Shit.

Again, firazo1's mom said it as well as anyone. Adult female's choose what kind and quality of women they are. Kara chose to become a whore. That she can rehabilitate herself and her marriage is perfectly believable. But let's not confuse how she got where she is. Independent of her husband and her circumstances, she made the choices that ruined her marriage. If she now makes the choices that facilitate her regaining her marriage to Tom, then she will in some ways become even more virtuous than the faultless woman I idealize. She will rise above her own failure, and be worthy of the love and respect Tom so much wants to bestow upon her. No, not what the feminists apologists want. But what a strong forgiving man could respect and devote his life to. Let's hope they discover the better person's they both can be, together.

Thank you for your thought provoking and stimulating story.

Firstly, Javmor hasn't removed all negative comments. Only the irrelevant ones like those suggesting that the author should die or kill himself, and the pasted-in comments to and from Bonnie.

I do agree that reading the comments is the best way of deciding whether a story is worth reading. Far better, in fact, than looking at the scores. Carvohi has claimed that he goes by scores, but he has made many useful comments on low-scoring stories so he at least goes beyond scores sometimes.

And it doesn't take long if you are a regular follower of the commentariat to work out who the best story reviewers are. As just one example, LordSlamdawg usually gives a fair assessment which allows a reader to decide whether or not to read a story.

I'm amazed that anybody can believe that scores for LW stories are anywhere close to an indicator of the true worth of a story. But they do let Gary have his fun.

(You can read about Gary in twistedsickmind's story 'The One Bomber'. It's in Humor ans Satire.)

L

Scores, while only made by a minority of the readers (1 in 24 was the best ratio of votes to views I got on my library), are the only true metric we have.

LW has a number of reading 'tribes'. Squickers, BTBers, Romantics, etc.

A story which gets a 4.5 or higher has either engaged EVERYONE of a single demographic or had sufficient appeal to get a very good score from MULTIPLE demographics.

Want good scores? Write broadly appealing stories. Don't talk down to your audience. Lectures should be subtle. And screaming at your readers in the comments is seldom a good idea (did I mention I was a hypocrite?)