All Comments on 'When We Were Married Ch. 02C'

I watched and tried for yrs to kick start some hope in two long time loved ones to get through something horrible like this. The Mom and Dad were so self involved they missed the important things. The kids.

I read one comment here refering to the kids as rotten or something like that. Whoever you are, please get fixed now! Don't reproduce! Kids need guidance and caring. And GOOD ROLE MODELS. This group of three is pathetic as yet. We'll see how the author plays this out.

This one is close to home for me. I dated a beautiful, smart, and caring young lady yrs. ago. Her brother was 2 yrs younger than her. Mom and dad went into almost the same out of the blue, yet maybe brewing for some time, I don't love you anymore, dating others for selfish reasons, ignoring the kids mostly, type lifestyle. It was really unbelievable to watch. My girlfriend,.....well, I said she was smart. She is a long time Officer in one of our military branches. Multiple marriages, scared to be loved, Scared to be alone. To this day she can't keep her legs together for only her husband.(whichever one) The little brother,...he couldn't figure out how not to feel alone or abandoned. At eighteen he put a gun in his gut, and aimed for his throat. I know this is just a story, but there is no way to like these three at all yet. What a group.

Doug thinks he's a good guy. What a loser. Injecting himself into others lives. No respect or thought as to the lives he could affect. A true thoughtless wimp.

Deb. C'mon get real. what a midlife crisis. Educated and all. Christ, she needs meds if she has this many sides to her. What a selfish idiot. Talk and e-mail about your lifes woes to studly, but no consversation with your husband. WTF?

And Bill. Shit. For a smart guy,.....hell I don't know.

You write well, and I appreciate your free effort, but none of us out here seem to like your characters. They don't deserve to be liked. They deserve each other. All I see is a tragic ending. You put their heads way to far up their asses.

I think I said in my last posting that instead of putting a lot of info into either the beginning or end of each chapter I'd try to post a comment early on after each chapter is posted to answer some questions or comments I'd found interesting.

Well, you guys are too fast for me. I turn around and there's a host of comments, which of course is immensely flattering. It's nice to know people are following this story. But let me make a few comments.

1. There was a question as to the time line. Briefly, there's a three week period from the night when Debbie says the "when we were married" slip to the day she calls and tells Bill she's divorcing him. In chapter 2B, I think, there's mention of a two week period getting ready for the first drug dealer/kid killer case, followed by another three week period of legal wrangling after the jury tampering occurs and the case is pushed forward. Then there's about a month in Chapter 2C where stuff is going on,but it's pretty much passed over because not much pertinent to the story occurs. So the breakup begins in mid-April and Chapter 2C bring us to early July because some months have more than four weeks.

2. There have been a lot of comments about the dichotomy between Bill's relationship with and role in his family and that of a tough prosecutor. I think Rehnquist did the best job of explaining (and I thank him) that you can be a tough attorney or (fill in the blank) on your job and still be either henpecked or a marshmallow (to make an extreme example) in your family setting because it is your family. By definition we take off our armor and protective gear when we're in the safety of the family castle.

3. Ditto there were some comments about the unbelievability of Bill pulling a gun on a Texas multi-millionaire in his office. Again, he's in his world where he wields, as you see in the latest chapter, a great deal of power. But even moreso, this is a man who's just received a threat to kill his family, made by an angry father who has the money and power to do exactly that. Bill believes the millionaire can do what he threatens. Bill is reacting instinctively. It may be a little melodramatic, but in a world where murder and rape and robbery and drugs and blackmail are real and everyday facts, not the stuff of fiction, I don't think his reaction is too melodramatic.

4. There was a great deal of reaction to the more fully fleshed out portrait of Doug the seducer. Every reader is entitled to view and assess what type of man Doug is. But I hope readers will realize that everybody, including a seducer of married women, is more than a cardboard cutout villain. A guy who sets his sights on a married woman because he wants her, and is willing to potentially destroy someone's marriage to get her, can be a jerk, a rotten person, but that's a long way from being a villain, or a predator. Predator - give me a break. As long as a woman is above the age of consent and you don't use drugs to break her will, how is any guy who hits on her a predator? As most men realize when they get to a certain age, a woman that can't be trusted to keep her legs together around good looking or fast-talking men, isn't really a good prospect for long range happiness. And we don't use chastity belts anymore. Moreover, it shouldn't be any big secret that most young men think with their dicks. Doug may be a vile creature, may be, but all we know at this point is that his dick led him to seduce a gorgeous woman. And as I've mentioned in another post, everybody, including bad guys, think of themselves as the good guys.

5. A reader commented about my saying that I didn't want to break the "fourth wall" between reader and author. Literotica's free wielding comments section makes interaction between writer and reader much more satisfying, but I think people reading stories still want to lose themselves in the stories without having the author talking in the background about why the story is written the way it is.

6. Finally, I know readers have never-ending questions about where the story is going, length and Bill and Debbie and their kids. It's long, I know where it's going and I hope readers like the journey, and you're going to learn more about what makes Bill and Debbie tick and see more of Bill Jr. and Kelly. There are characters only briefly mentioned so far that will play pivotal roles in understanding how Bill and Debbie got to this point in their lives.

Thanx again for the interest you've shown.

....influence the conversation I will simply say that I Agree with Reinquist( and Risq etc are wrong because it's a matter of opinion, not literary format)-that you don't have to like the characters, (and I did not like any Godfather characters, and was still enthralled)-and I hope that the kids end up scorched. From what you have written re their sex history both Have to be budding predators now!Thanks for another great read.

Enjoyed reading your take on Debbie and Dougie. That slimeball has been carrying on a far more advanced "affair" with Kelly at this stage of the game than he did with her mother after 2 months.

......HiV asks "did Debbie not do any wrong?" Of course Debbie did some "wrong." She obviously did some flirting with Doug, but if that were a deal breaker in marriages, we would have about a 99% divorce rate.....

THAT's IT? thats all you have?

the Opening Line she uttered WE WE WERE MARRIED showed that she has moved away from Bill totally. She has fallen out of love with him. Which happens.... but Bill does have the right to know.

Harry,

If that fruedian slip, "when we were married" was doing "WRONG" then I'm totally confused about what wrong is. I concede I missed the boat.

Regarding telling Bill she no longer loves him, they are sitting in bed talking. Everything but those words indicates that she still thinks she loves him. She for sure doesn't love Doug according to this last chapter. How do you know when you go from loving someone to no longer loving them?

This isn't a JPB quickie story. DQS is weaving a complex and convoluted

story. The facinating aspect for me is how different the world of Bill and Debbie appear from different points of view. I am guilty of trying to read between the lines in the previous chapters to see if I could see from Debbie's narrated point of view.

I want to go back and read again the email part of this story and until then I am declining to comment about them.

Harry, I make a statement about why I would want Debbie back and you make one point about why you wouldn't want her back. BTW she formed a sexual relationship with a younger MAN not younger MEN. That's not bad per se. And, Harry, please don't use exaggeration to make your points if we are going to discuss this story. Paraphrasing you, is exaggeration all YOU got?

The alimony conversaton where Debbie busted Bill's chops about the size of Dougie's cock has been addressed by someone else far better than I could. Have you ever been through a divorce, Harry?

All the evidence (provided by DQS) indicates that there was no sexual cheating at the time of the public ruckus. Debbie's concerns about loss of income and earning potential has been well addressed by others.

Harry, I would accuse you of forming your opinion about Debbie early on based on the view through the glasses that Bill was wearing after hearing "When we were married." His view of Debbie and all her actions would have been entirely different if he had heard, "Bill, we need to do something about our marriage. How about fucking my eyeballs out?" Or "Bill, I've got this young stud assistant I'm mentoring and he is flirting his ass off trying to get in my panties. How about taking care of this old lady's pussy you're married to?" Of course we wouldn't have a story if she had said either of those things would we?

Harry, I would accuse you of forming your opinion about Debbie early on based on the view through the glasses that Bill was wearing after hearing "When we were married." His view of Debbie and all her actions would have been entirely different if he had heard, "Bill, we need to do something about our marriage. How about fucking my eyeballs out?" Or "Bill, I've got this young stud assistant I'm mentoring and he is flirting his ass off trying to get in my panties. How about taking care of this old lady's pussy you're married to?" Of course we wouldn't have a story if she had said either of those things would we? <p>

+++++++++++++++++++++ <p>

Of course, we WOULD still have a story. All the author had to do was simply allow Bill to be no more intelligent than a rock, as he's characterized here, and the story would continue on as it is. She would do as she did and he would not have done any thing as she had asked and be where he is right now, exactly as he is, too. <p>

Had the author taken the route, there would be somehting different, though. There would be at least one likeable character, who is also smart. <p>

Yeah, yeah.... not all "good stories" have to have a likeable character, everyone knows that. Zombie stories are made into multi-million dollar movie franchize and no body could identify with any of hte characters, true enough! <p>

Mobster characters and movies, however, are a different story. At least HALF, if not more, of the audience want to be Al Pacino's SCARFACE..... So such a terrible character is not only LIKED A LOT but loved, too, by the reader and movie audience. <p>

Why? Because despite their horrible characterization, what they do make sense. They make mistakes; but they are decisive and logical. Whether you like Scarface of not, you admire his wherewithals, his decisiveness, his WILLINGNESS and ABILITY to bite the bullet in very difficult circumstances... <p>

Bill the husband here behaves like a shy, timid, physically and mentally abused teenage boy... too afraid to speak up or speak out... lest he's being pummeled by those around him, whether they are physically smaller or bigger than he is, it doesn't matter... because his love for wimpism and narcissism ensure that he gets plenty of physical and mental abuses and simply absorbs them, thinking he is somehow better than others... or something, in his little twisted world.... And he is a what? a fiersome, successful Ass Dist Attorney? <p>

Right!

"What about Bob?" is from an old Bill Murray movie and is totally unrelated to this comment. ;-)

But what about Bill? A lot of speculation about Debbie fucking around with Dougie and even others before the awards dinner. No speculation that Bill wasn't MIA at least in part because he was getting his pipes cleaned before coming home late nearly every night. He didn't or wouldn't mess around where he could be seen in public due to his political ambition. That shit would ruin his career just as it has affected Debbie's career.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if Debbie suspected or knew about Bill's using whores. That would certainly shed light on her comments about him hiring a hooker and the cutting remarks about the size of Dougie's cock. (Yes, cock. A penis is only 5" long. i learned that reading cuckhold stories here on Literotica.)

What do you think, Harry? Could we forgive Debbie for her ragging Bill's ass then?

Your comments show that you will do much more to develop the characters of the people involved. This is, arguably, what you do best - bringing the characters alive to your readers.

As for HIV and the others trying to hide their concerns about their sexual identity - ignore them. You are writing a first rate story. Don't allow anyone, except yourself, to change what you have in mind. This is your story.

In this chapter you showed:

-Bill is a bad,bad parent and LOVES only his work;

-Debbie is a DUMB blond;

-Doug is a self centered arsehole and teenager (soon to be)molester;

-The kids don´t have ANY respect/affection for their dad;

-Lew is the only smart character in ALL plot;

It´s strange the fact Bill don´t want to use the EMAILS.When you´re hurting because someone you loves SMASHES you(like Deb did in public with Doug), you do the WORST things.He should(at least), send a transcription to Deb mother, just to make stop her demanding in the divorce.

I don´t like your characters and i doubt you like either.And you are killing the good in them.

(by NDRDIII)

because I agree with you. My original post on the topic was that you don't have to like the characters--they don't have to be warm, fuzzy, and perfect--for the story to be compelling. As an example, I used The Godfather and Gone With the Wind. The main characters in both weren't evil from a merely moralistic point of view; they were objectionable from an objective point of view as well. And yet both stories, as I noted several times, are awesome and compelling.

In response, Risq argued that at least Rhett Butler was a "good" guy, though very misguided. In reply to that, I noted only that Rhett's behavior is most easily likened to Doug in this, i.e., the sort of behavior that, through most of the story, would get him labeled a "predator." And I expressly noted that it was only due to the author's skill that Rhett ended up the hero despite all objective evidence to the contrary.

Which brings me back to my original point. I only made the comment in response to several previous comments that the story wasn't enjoyable because none of the characters are "likeable." Likeable how? Perfectly virtuous? As The Godfather showed, perfectly virtuous characters can be very likeable. Likeable as in not trying to steal a married woman? Rhett got away with it and was loved; Doug's doing it here and is hated. No, I stick with my original point: They don't have to be "likeable" to be compelling characters or even characters we cheer for. They have to be 3-dimensional characters with all of the foibles, weaknesses, and strengths that we all have, and this helps draw us deeper into the story and into their lives. So even though it was cold-blooded murder, I still cheered my ass off when Michael Corleone shot the Turk and the police captain because he was doing so against his initial nature and to protect his family. I still cheered when Rhett finally married Scarlett because, as Risq pointed out, he appeared at the time to have tamed the shrew. And I'll cheer here, too, if Bill can logically do what's right by him and his children. (Yes, the children, who should not be cast asunder because we were all teenagers once and acted like assholes to our parents and thank God they didn't desert us; but no, not what's right for Debbie because this is no longer about Bill doing what's right for Debbie.)

Frankly, in the first chapter, I was endlessly frustrated when Bill kept bemoaning his weight and eating like a pig, kept watching the destruction of his marriage and doing nothing about it. Now, though, he's gotten off is ass--slowly, to be sure--and is facing all of his problems head on (if still a bit hesitantly as regards the e-mails), and I find myself cheering for him. You are correct in that his growth as a character has made him likeable. Still, what's not to like? He's a lawyer, and we almost always end up playing the good guys in these stories, which is how you know it's fiction!

Take the criticism with a grain of salt. If everybody wrote the same it wouldn’t be fun to read any more because we would already know what was going to happen. I am enjoying you writing and can’t wait for the next one. Being a romantic I all hope for happy people in the end. Keep up the good work. Remember the majority of the people that read these stories are in it for the characters and fun of the stories and are not the critics that put every thing down.

I read it again and again, i dont understand one thing, what is that Bill want to prove? What is he trying to hide?

Kids know Doug is sleeping with their mom.

Whole town knows his wife is running around with some younger toy.

Whole university knows and seen her kissing on stage.

Tell me who did not Know please.

Bill is the last one to know all these things, and he tries to hide it? Excise me.

His wife tells him, his knows everything and are OK with that.

His wiffe humiliate him on phone, and tells him he should get laid, and assumed he have to pay for that.

What he is trying to hid? What is he trying to protect.

Reputation? Neither he no Debbie has any good reputation.

Bill has reputation of a wimp who cant satisfy his wife, beaten by her lover, very repulsive man.

Debbie has reputation of Cheating Slut, Kissing Lover openly.

What is their to hide or protect.

Revealing Emails at least will prove that he was not cuckold during the marriage(til day he left the home).

By doing all these he is proving himself very pathetic and fake personality. First i liked his character, then felt sorry for him, then i had pity on him, then i thought he is a fool and deserve it, But now I really his character. He is not good person to be around, very boring, wimpy, absorbed in self-pity, repulsive personality. believe me if I were 'Lew' listening crap he was telling I would have killed him there on spot. he is like torture to listener. DSQ1 must hate this character. Lew is brave man to be able to listen his reasoning, my advice for Lew is drop the Bill, and fight for Debbie, because result will be same. Because Bill is afraid if he had very little chance of having sex with his wife after 20 more years, he does not want to risk that by pissing her. he still has hope, that when she will lose her looks after 20 yrs or 30 yrs, she will take him back. This called true Love. congrats you proved it.

have you seen a rat, when it has no place to escape, close eyes assuming if he cant see the cat, he will be safe.

Bill knows everyone knows, and there are certain things and he is the only one who does not know about. he does not want to make it obvious that he knew it already. Really he is very pathetic excuse for a man. I think DQS want to show how a lowlife man will comes to commit suicide, but he is so pathetic, so low that level where people commit suicide is much higher to him. so you see he has no choice.

Another awesome job. Keep up the great work!

-- Jim

why not tell his own attorney in the upcoming Divorce about the emails? Given Bill's rep his legal accument -- even if not family law/ divoroce cases --it makes NO sense that bill HID the emails from his own attorney.

There are little things that one can do to flesh out a character but sometimes in doing so you create more inconsistencies and problems

Just sayin'

No one has mentioned that in Debbie's emails she tells Doug she frequently goes out with the "girls" without Bill.

"I've made a life without him. A lot of times when I tell him I'm at a faculty meeting, I'm out with some girls from school, or girls and guys like the times we've gone out dancing. I haven't done anything wrong, but I want to be someone other than a wife and mother for a few hours. I want to have men look at me and admire me. I wish to God I wanted him to be one of those men, but I really don't care anymore. I don't think of him that way."

Has she stopped this lifestyle and become monogamous with Doug. I don't think so. She has too many admirers that she has cocked teased that now know she is available...lol...that's why Doug is "just a friend". She has yet to go through the whole stable.

The comments are very thoughtful and many good points are being made. I find myself agreeing with both sides of some of the issues. The one thing I am not a big fan of is the writer explaining the story to the reader. I feel the writer needs to write the story, and Q is doing a great job there, and allow the readers to read, comprehend, make deductions (many of which the writer never intended or even considered in many cases, at least in mine) and discuss the story. The writer's comments outside of the story can muddy the waters or ruin a perception readers carried and enjoyed. Let Harry and Vulcan and Khan and bigfoot and other readers have the pleasure of making the astute observations. You, sir, need only write more chapters as quickly as possible! The readers will handle the comments!

To my friend size14

you wrote:...

".....if that fruedian slip, "when we were married" was doing "WRONG" then I'm totally confused about what wrong is. I concede I missed the boat...."

yes I agree you do have a great deal iof trouble figuring out what WRONG is. That Much is obvious to all.

Dude I DO apprreciate that YOU are trying to Look at this from Debbies point of view. That is different and it shows an effort to think out of the Box and as an ENTP that is always in my view.... a good thing !! so Kudos to you!

But talk about exaggeration.....I have said MANY times-- at least 5 snce this story started-- that BILL did screw up BIG time going into the point where the crisis begins. I have agreed with you that up to this point Debbie was in a way a victim.

PLEASE keep in Mind I have NOT said in THIS story " THROW the bitch out" or " oh no Reconciliation is coming".... . Others have said as much . I HAVE NOT.... Thus your assertion that I formed my opinion about debbie back in chapter 1 is clearly false and in itself an exaggeration

But let me make this point.... we seem to disagree on the issue of debbie still having SOME feelings for Bill vs LOVE. So let me ask:

WHAT if anything does debbie Have to do in order for YOU to thing ok maybe she doesnt love bill anymore? I mean surely you Must have SOME idea ?

*-*-*-

"....Harry, I make a statement about why I would want Debbie back and you make one point about why you wouldn't want her back. BTW she formed a sexual relationship with a younger MAN not younger MEN. That's not bad per se...."

Dude this is why I think you are a moral relativist....YES forming emotional then sexual relationships while still married with much younger men IS bad. It speaks volumes that YOU cant see that.

*-*-*

"....The alimony conversaton where Debbie busted Bill's chops about the size of Dougie's cock has been addressed by someone else far better than I could. Have you ever been through a divorce, Harry?..."

not yet ( although that is probably coming with me). But that is my point . Debbie has been over the past several years filled with RESENTMENT. -- again with SOME justification. We agree right?

Now she has what she wants... and she is STILL filled with hurt and resentment !! Debbie got out ofthe marriage Got the great sex and saw her husband beaten up and humilated publicly

and debbie is STLL angry and resentfull??? when does debbie get past the resentment ??? WHEN ????

Just like guilt isnt love neither is resentment. Those are emotions but NOT love.

Plain and simple this is a cheating wife story a long and complicated one never the less.

you're going to learn more about what makes Bill and Debbie tick ( from DQS's comments)

Bill I believe we all ready know what makes him tick he is a good and decent man with values that put his all in to his work and lost touch with his home life at the same time he also neglected his physical helth with his values he believed when 2 people say I do it was for every for better for worse etc. After 12 hours days he was just glad be home with his family no stress he could just exhale and feel relaxed for a few hours. like he said he was happy. Is he at fault for destruction of his marriage ? yes to some degree If Deb let him know how unhappy she was Would he have listened ? with his values I would bet on it.

Deb She is a woman that is Turing 40 and always had a lot of male attention but ignored it because she Loved her husband but now she no longer finds him attractive and knows her looks will only go down hill she already sees as most large breasted woman do how they are starting to sag with age she feels her life his passing her by the kids no longer need her and Thur the years she has lied to Bill so often it was easy to live a double life than a younger man came in to her life and boosted her ego it was the push she needed to end her marriage and end her unhappiness the problem now is she is still not happy.

she misses parts of Bill not all of him she wants parts of the man she had for 20 years ( but he will not go for it) and a younger Lover for excitement she is living in a dream world.

Here some people are discussing liking or not liking of characters, I think only point we can discuss is which character you liked or which didn't, not character should be liked or not. And character is not liked/disliked on the basis of what action he takes, liking a character depends on reason for his actions(right or wrong). Some times people we see two people who reacted to same situation with same reaction, and one is liked and other is disliked. Why? How well a character is portraietd. how much reality you see in his thinking.

For example, suppose story is not about Bill. It starts with a yong man Doug, very good looking, Intelligent, charming, funny. Got a job in university, and starts liking a woman. To hime she seems very unhappy, he wants to talk to her, and become friends, she started telling him how unhappy she is in her family life. He wants to make cheer her up. Slowly he started feel something for her. But did not take any step. Their relationship becomes stronger and stronger. When he comes to know she is sexually attracted to him, and make it very obvious that she willing to take it futher, without disturbing her family situation. and try to intimate before taking it futher, and try to know each other better, before she leaves her husband. How should he react, what she does in her family is not his concern, he likes her, she likes him. That's all matter to him. If her marriage was so important to her then what is she doing there with him. From where he stand it looks like she is very sad and he is willing to help her. To him, he rescuing a lonely woman who is in loveless marriage,according to her, and he had to believe her, no-one goes around checking that someone is unhappy or not when the unhappy person tells you that. When they were advancing she becomes careless and her husband steps in try to attack him. and accuse them of cheating. So now, about accusation , it is not his duty to explain, why they are in this situation, its wife who should tells her husband why is she there with him. See? Looks like Doug is hero here. and could be very likable if portrayed in very well manner.

Another example, if you ever read a story 'June Gets Even' , in which a wife catches her husband cheating with neighbor, and tell the husband of that neighbour. she and cheated husband plans on revenge sex and goes a little further. You will se numbers of continuations of this story by different authors. Now there are four characters. If you see all the stories from different point of views you will like or dislike all the character.

Cheating wife, was in deep depression when she cheated but regretted after that, but continued but was going to stop. And you will feel bad for her when she explains her situation, and how her husband took revenge on her by tying her on chair and had sex with other wife in front of her. She lost her baby due to cruelty on her during revenge. Now she cant forgive her husband. and cant go back to him.

Cheater husband suffers and becomes victim of revenge sex by his wife in front of, and he could not remove images of his wife fucking other man in front of him. So he decided to simply end his marriage, According to him, he feels sorry for cheating on his wife, and if confronted by his wife, thrown out of house, at the point, he could have someday considered reconciliation. But now after revenge he is simply Unable to reconcile, and you can't force someone in marriage where he is not able to particpate. See? he is right about not continuing marriage. There is nothing he can do now, can he?

Cheated wife after getting revenge assumes they will be even and will continue there marriage, but what if now husband does not want that. She is now sorry, for revenge she had taken. But there is nothing she can do now, can she?

Cheated husband assumed same but cannot get his wife back, because during revenge he hurt her badly and she is emotionally depressed. you might have read many stories of cheating wives and how husband takes revenge on his slut wife, and we appreciate him, how he acted so manly. we like him, because he was not wimp, he taught his wife a lesson,he fucked the wife of man who cuckold him. Is not he a hero of the story? Yo read the different version, yo might hate him.

So liking and disliking, depends on how much author explains about character,and how we fit over-selves in story, see, we try to find most simlar character in story and all the character opposite to him/her are disliked by us.

Every person in his/her opinion is a good person and hero. So it also affects who is telling the story and who tells you first. Because the character who tell the story tell you every details of thinking, which clearly justify his/her actions, make him likable. Every character against the character who got our sympathy are disliked in story.

This is a great story.

But hey, we definitely need to have great writers like you entering stories in LITEROTICA'S Special Contests. The contest starts next month - why not reward your faithful readers with a quick bare naked loving wives entry...

jim

I think andy1hardy makes a good point. Everyone seems to be blaming Bill for the start of the troubles in the marriage, saying he was spending to much time at work what have you. Debbie is as much at fault as he is. She also took home work, papers to grade etc. She has been lying to him for quite some time, saying she needs to work but is actually going out clubbing and to parties, which she eventually converted to dates with Doug. This is not a simple mid life crisis, this is a selfish, self centered brat who only cares for her own happiness. She has undercut his relationship with his kids and their friends for a long period of time. She may have been targeted by the preditor Doug, but she had emotionally left her marriage long before he came on the scene. I hope that as the story evolves Bill continues with his self improvement and eventually finds someone who is the equall to what he had thought Debbie was (though she never was the person he had imagined). While meanwhile Deb gets what she deserved, no job, no alimony, exposed to everyone she knows as the lying, coniving, self centered bitch she really is. Oh, and with a boyfriend who sleeps with her daughter.

Harry, Thanks for the ongoing conversation and especially for helping create an environment for discussion that isn't in and of itself irritating.

You say, "YES forming emotional then sexual relationships while still married with much younger men IS bad. It speaks volumes that YOU cant see that. *-*-*"

Harry, I'm "damned if I do and damned if I don't" here. If I disagree with the above, then I'm a fool. If I say I can see that, then I am saying this is what Debbie did. I would argue that Debbie (and many others who find themselves in sexual relationships) DID NOT proactively FORM that relationships, but quite to the contrary that relationship developed over a period of time and in Debbie's case, between colleagues. This is not a relationship that Debbie got into by going out to dance clubs and meeting some hot, young stud. Doug is her ASSISTANT and she is his MENTOR. In hindsight we can say that she did wrong by allowing the relationship to move to one of impropriety.

Much is made of her going out to dinner with Doug and to having drinks with him. What were the circumstances under which these events occured? If they were male ASSISTANT and MENTOR would we accuse them of doing wrong? I don't think so. We live in a society where gender driven restrictions on behavior in the work place and work extended environment is rapidly disappearing. The glass ceiling has been shattered.

When we factor in her husband not coming home at a reasonable hour and her teenagers having a social life and school activities, it becomes very understandable how Debbie could see no wrong in her activities. I'm not saying the way the conversations started to drift towards impropriety wasn't off, just that nothing was wrong with their original purpose for meetings including drinks and or dinner together. What would one reasonably expectDebbie or ANYONE else to do? Go home and sit by herself and wait for hours for her family to come home?

In almost 20 years of marriage and professional life this is the FIRST incident of such behavior, that behavior being a strong relationship with a man other than her husband. This is not the reoccuring behavior of a "fucking, cunt slut" a she has been depicted by some.

So, is it wrong that she did or is it something that didn't work. I'm not speaking of the relationship the evolved from professional to personal but the mechanism that allowed for the relationship to occur. I agree that it didn't work but I assert that it WAS NOT WRONG per se.

So if it wasn't wrong, what did happen for it to go wrong. I'd say we had the PERFECT STORM so to speak. Debs had the time on her hands; she had the professional obligation to train Dougie and to create the ASSISTANT/MENTOR relationship; she was bored with the hand she was dealt in life -- Bill came home late, the children were no longer dependent on her for their needs and her age with its female concerns for aging, becoming unattractive, etc. The only ingredient in this recipe for the disaster that it was, was Dougie's scheming and his well executed seduction of Debbie. Other than Dougie's part in this disaster, not a lot could be changed by Debbie.

Harry, the way it is stated and often perceived, Debbie did do wrong. I am only looking to see if something is being assumed here that is not true or did not actually occur. If Debbie went after Dougie instead of the other way around, I would be dead set against her. That is not the case even though some commentors want to have it be that way.

No, my friend, Debbie IMNSHO is just as much a victim as Bill. Had Debbie been able to remove herself emotionally from the situation, she may have seen it coming. I assert that she thoroughly enjoyed her friendship with Dougie, maybe too much. Bill would have thought so and who could have faulted his line of thinking.

Debbie is like the metaphorical frog who got in the pot of cold water and felt nothing was wrong. The heat was gradually turned up (Doug was without a doubt turning up the heat) and without realizing what happened, she was boiled alive. To say she should have know what was happening because she was an PhD professor is ludicrous. She was trapped just like the frog. It was too late to do anything about it.

Bill and Debbie had been dating or married for almost 20 years. How could he compete with the handsome, young, professionally viable assistant professor? He shouldn't have to compete is the answer. But Bill did HAVE to compete. Why? Because Dougie was creating competition. Bill just didn't know he had competition.

Neither Bill nor Debbie were at fault AND they both contributed to the condition of the marriage.

This is purely opinion but I'll put it out here: In Debbie's subconcious mind, her natural female feelings of attraction for Dougie, got juxtaposed with her love for her husband. I would say that this juxtaposition had her believe she was falling out of love with Bill or "no longer loved him." My guess is that she didn't "like" Bill -- he left her alone, left her to raise the children, wasn't there for her emotionally, wasn't filling her needs as a woman. IOW She was ripe of the picking when Dougie came along. (Word of caution here. My background is construction, not psychology, so my take on this should be taken with a grain of salt. I have, however, experienced this personally to my deep regret.)

The circumstances depicted in the above comments are why I think it is so important to recognize that Debbie did not fuck or suck or have a sexual relationship in any way. Her emotional relationship evolved and I cannot fault her morally for such to have happened. Had she move to a physical/sexual relationship, that would be a different matter. THINKING about fucking other women is not a crime in my current marriage. Fucking other women is. And so it is with Debbie. Her thinking about or even fantasizing about fucking Dougie is not an indictable crime -- unless a double standard is applied to Debbie/women. So she THOUGHT about fucking Dougie. She didn't and that is the bottom line.

I'm ending here but may pick up on Debbie and resentment in another comment.

I had no intetion of going on and on but I surely did, didn't I?

Bigfoot

Debbie didn't just go to dinners she lied to her family/husband about the nature of those get-togethers. That is what made them wrong and part of the infidelity, it doesn't matter that she wasn't having sex yet. She had already crossed the line and at every pivotal point where Bill and she could have talked she cut him out of pulled some stunt to create more distance and push Bill into believing she was being unfaithful. No spouse stays out all night long with out telling thier significant other before hand. Debbie was intentionally trying to push Bill to the point of separation and divorce long before she finally came right out and said it. If anything it looked more like she was setting the stage for her to just fuck around and stay married except Bill went to the award dinner and outed her and forced her hand to avoid any further embarassment to herself.

Bill shows no evidence of being a wimp. The fight with the younger, stronger, bigger, experienced boxer Doug was not a loss for Bill. Not be any stretch of the imagination. Bill put his all in the fight. He was beaten up more than Doug true but I'm sure that people watching the fighting, including his lover wife Debbie, who the university crowd knew to be Professor Maitland husband, were both surprised and proud of underdog Bill.

Then his loving wife turned away from Bill and ran to Doug's side to tend to his bleeding nose and mouth. She demonstrated by this action that Bill didn't count to her (not at this time); he just got in the way of her and Doug's glory, their day in the sun. Debbie picked her hero, her injured roman gladiator over the physically beaten intruder. True, Doug didn't really try that hard to win the may lay, but he cannot in my mind be said to have won the fight. RAG

This story is — SPECIAL because its grip on readers is too tight, and it involves the readers, make them think — what’s gonna happen? I’ve always enjoyed Loving Wives stories, especially for their — comments. The comments of this story are very constructive, entertaining, and there’s NO war–of–words, name calling, etc. There’s — discussions related ONLY to the story, plotline, characters…etc. Hats off to DQS for writing this story, and kudos to everyone for entertaining with their comments.

My humblest request to DQS is — please post the next chapter quickly.

I just re-read chapter 1 and re-enlightened myself. Debbie was caught redhanded by Bill just when she was getting ready to quit her marriage. Reference was made by Doug in chapter 2c that they had fucked before she had filed for divorce. In chapter 1 (and before Bill discovered the emails) Debbie came home from her date with Doug, kissed him in the driveway, and went straight upstairs to take a shower. This was after Bill had discovered that Debbie had shaved her pussy. Bill had asked Debbie a few days prior if she was fucking someone, and she got really pissed. She just may have decided that she would do just that, if she was being accused of it. From the time of the initial argument to the confrontation at the event in chapter 1, Debbie has constantly accused Bill of having delusions, even using this as part of her excuse to get an order of protection and alienate him from her collegues and family.

We know that Bill was not dellusional. He belatedly knew what was happening. The delusions were Debbie's. She did not want to admit to herself what she was doing. Bill's assistant even admitted to him that Debbie had been spied at several of his office functions, and hers, in intimate embraces from time to time. Debbie even reminices about how wild she was in college, and how disappointed she was in Bill's reserve even then. Debbie has been looking for a way out of her marriage for several years. Doug even recognized it when he first met her. She may have talked herself into thinking she was in love with Bill for most of their relationship, but she has been "making a life for herself" for a few years now.

All of those that think I and Harry are trashing Debbie.

I dint know Harry's motives but mine stem from my two tours in a combat zone where I witnessed the devastating effect of "cheating" (dear john) letters on a lot of my brothers in arms, and I sometimes wonder how many actually committed suicide by combat because of it.

My beef is not just with Debbie, but with Doug and all other cheaters without exception, whether in this story or any other.

Thus all things being equal, I personally love this story and am looking forward to the day Debbie and Doug get punished for their transgressions.

I just re-read the bedroom scene where Bill deduced that his wife was fucking another man, no longer loved him, rejected a jesture that only lovers would make, ran her out of the bedroom to sleep on the couch. What did he deduce this from? The comment or fraudian let-go, "When we were married."

Next I re-read the email sequence where Bill deduced that Debbie was in love with Dougie. How did he deduce this? From these comments? Hardly:

Deb to Lance:"I feel guilty even telling you this, but I can't talk to him about it. And sometimes I think I'll scream if I can't tell somebody what's happening – or not happening – in my life. I don't know how I made it through the days before we met. I can be honest with you, because we're not married, or lovers. We're friends, and a friend is what I need now."

Deb to Lance: "What choice do I have? We've been married for 17 years. We have two children. He's done everything he can to keep me happy. I know there nothing in this world I could ask him to do for me that he wouldn't do. The hell of it is, he's such a good man. And I should love him a lot more than I do. Don't misunderstand me, I do love him. Even though you and I flirt sometimes, and maybe I carry it further than a middle aged married woman should, I know you know that I love him. If it wasn't that I loved him, I'd –"

Deb to Lance: "I know you could have...well, you know If you were an asshole like a lot of the younger guys around here are. But you've been a gentleman, a good man. That's why I like you so much. I'll just say that I hope you know just how special a friend you've become. And now I'll sign off."

Bill's take on the above PRIVATE -- not public or overhead comments -- emails to Doug:

"I thought the screen had suddenly become blurry and then I realized my eyes were filled with tears. It was one of those moments when you wonder why you can't just have a heart attack and get it over with.

My wife was falling, had fallen, in love with another man. The beautiful blonde I'd cum inside of for so many years wanted another man's cock inside her. She all but admitted it."

It's no denying the marriage was in the toilet and Bill was the dickhead that flushed it. He also read the email where she acknowledged blowing off a lunch with Dougie and telling him they had to cool it. He made a Federal case out of an apparent chaste kiss goodnight. Debbie denied kissing Dougie. Why because in the context of Bill's accusation she hadn't "kissed" Doug. Bill's attack on Doug caused her to rise up in defense of Doug. Not smart, Bill, if you were interested in staying married, but certainly in character for you.

Bill packed up and left, leaving a note and his ring for her and the children to find. Bill left Debbie at worst, prematurely. Certainly without lifting a finger to try and do something about the marriage. Want to blame it on Debbie? She may have been falling out of love with Bill but she was trying 100 times more to save the marriage. Why was she falling out of love with her husband? He was inattentive, distant, not participating in the marriage.

She went to faculty parties without Bill. Why? He had let her know he didn't want to go, That "wonderful man" drove his wife to cheat, cheating being going to faculty parties and dancing. She sinned by having fun and being alive.

Wonder why she didn't tell him about the parties and going out with the girls form work? How about the paranoia that Bill exhibited in the "When we were married" bedroom scene? She lived with him for 17 years. Long enough to know what kind of nut he was.

How did he deal with confronting his wife? He put her "on the witness stand" and through careful cross examination, caught her in "lies of omission."

From Chap. 1:"I'd found out that the woman I thought I had known was some stranger. Let her hang herself with her lies, lies of omission if not flat out lies.

Maybe it was the prosecutor in me. There was nothing sweeter than catching a hostile witness or a defendant in a lie, when you'd let him or her run it out and tangle themselves in a web they could never talk themselves out of. How in the hell had it wound up with my trying to trap my own wife in her web of lies."

Debbie is a fucking -- no pun intended -- saint to have lasted 17 years with this psychopathic mofa.

How about the 8" dick comment. Taken out of context as Harry has so brilliantly done, it's pretty cold. But read it in context and it was actually nothing but a comment with humor in response to Bill's digs at her:

Bill says, "Oh, sorry, I forgot you were doing that already. Including, you bitch, fucking him in our house while the kids are there. That bastard must have a foot-long cock for you to behave like such a tramp."

She laughed.

"Don't be silly, Bill. All he's got is a good, solid, very hard 8 inches. But that's long and hard enough."

"Alright, that's a point for you. You think I'm going to break down sobbing to learn you've been having sex with him. I knew that."

A lot has been said about how cruel and vicious Debbie was in her comments to Bill in the continuation of the conversation above. Here it is again:

Instead of her making some smartass comment about rats, she said, "Bill, I mean this seriously. Go out and get a woman. That's probably going to be hard for you to do, but if you have to, pay for it. I don't want you to stay hung up on me. I'm moving on with my life. I hope you can too."

Bill thinks, 'I could take anger a lot easier than pity and contempt. She probably didn't think I could get a woman without paying for her. As to moving on, I had already moved on to a life quite different from the one I'd known three months earlier.'

We have already seen how his mind works in the bedroom scene. It is no surprise that he thinks Debbie was being pitying and contemptuous. And that is a valid interpretation. Another interpretation is: knowing Bill's anti-social life style and 12 hour work day, she assumed that paying for it would make it happen a lot quicker, not that he couldn't get laid on his own.

I've got to comment about the shaved pussy. Debbie shaves her pussy and says that she did it for him, hoping to spice up the marriage. Bill had rather accuse her of fucking another man instead of taking her up on her overture for sex -- going so far as to slap her hand of his "rock hard cock." Earth to Bill, you cut your nose off to spite your faith. Are you wondering perhaps why your wife had rather be in the company of other men?

Yeah, Bill should divorce that bitch, cunt, whore Debbie and live a happy life of celibacy alone in his condo, while that bitch, cunt, whore Debbie suffers through the unhappy life of a college professor attending faculty parties, going out with co-workers to have drinks and dance a bit -- when she's not being fucked senseless by her young and energetic lover with the 8" and very hard cock. YOU GO, GIRL!!

There are a lot of valid interpretations of Debbie going to Dougie when he got his nose bloodied. Almost all say it was because she favored Dougie over Bill.

Here's another interpretation:

Professor Maitland's husband show's up unexpectedly and starts a fight with her colleague. The colleague got busted up pretty good by a head butt from her husband. Professor Maitland was embarrassed and went to her colleague who apparently was hurt far more than her husband. Not a smart move but understandable never the less.

BTW most of the attendees had no idea it was her husband. Hell, he hadn't attended such a function in years. When would anyone have a chance to meet him? How much "humiliation" could he have gotten from that?

Let us take Harry's question: "WHAT if anything does debbie Have to do in order for YOU to thing ok maybe she doesnt love bill anymore? I mean surely you Must have SOME idea ?"

Short of calmly and methodically stabbing him a dozen times, then eating his brains with a side order of salad (all without emotion I might add), not much... She will probably always love Bill to some extent. They spent a lot of time together, a lot of that time good. As time goes on, if neither of them escalate things excessively, love will fade away, be attached somewhere else, and perhaps die completely where these two are concerned. But that might not make great literature!

The issue here revolves around different views about human nature and the capacity to feel and act on emotions that we may or may not be aware of. In some sense, even as Harry recognizes the capacity for internal conflict, I don't quite get the way he translates this into emotional expression and action. In some sense, I gather that Harry sees emotions and their expressions as somewhat monolithic structures. If something is expressed in a conflicted manner, then in Harry's view it is the expression of one emotion or one similar group of emotions (guilt, anger, and resentment might be one cluster). He doesn't appear to allow for the possibility that love and anger might express themselves together with a lot of anger and a little love (or that one can act in anger in one action, and then with love or another emotional amalgam in another subsequent action); or express themselves in somewhat irrational acts that the actor doesn't even feel they have control over. I will grant that this might be misrepresenting what Harry thinks, but it is hard to pin down what Harry thinks about this aspect of human behaviour. An alternative model might hold that emotions war within ourselves, and get expressed in an at times haphazard, even chaotic fashion. Such a view would hold that personalities are not unified structures but often fragmented in subtle and interesting ways, giving rise to at times contradictory actions that the actor is unsure of why they happened.

Finally, even Doug gets it:

"So I hang around a married woman who's still in love with her husband. You know, there's a reason why love is a four letter word."

"Doug – you – I didn't – I'm not in love with Bill."

"You wouldn't go into the depths of depression every time you talk to him, or don't talk to him, if you didn't have feelings for him, Deb."

And before Harry gets in a tizz, "having feelings for him" is code for "love" (as well as a lot of other positive and negative emotions). It might not be burning hot lustful sexual love, but that is not the only kind of love out there...

I partly agree with the cooking FROG analogy as long as we are not talking about the FRENCH (LOL)

Again we agree on THIS point ... Debbie did NOT proactively seek out Doug or some other guy .

BUT your SPIN about the dinner and drinks and dancing with Doug is way off. You are Building a straw man.... NO one has asserted that debbie had to stay home wait endlessly for a No show husband.

so stop that bullshit right now.

That being said now that you have explained it ... yes I do see what you mean that "IT wasnt wrong per se...." with the the IT referring to socialzing with Doug and others while Bill wasnt around.

and we agree -- AGAIN!! - on the perfect storm idea...

this was very strong on your part and I glad YOU have set things straight:

."... If Debbie went after Dougie instead of the other way around, I would be dead set against her. That is not the case even though some commentors want to have it be that way...."

but here we disagree... this is just BULLSHIT on your part

"....To say she should have know what was happening because she was an PhD professor is ludicrous. She was trapped just like the frog. It was too late to do anything about it...."

dude come on a dude.. a grown mature highly intelligent educted woman does NOT know WHY she shaved her own pussy?

she doesnt know what the significance of the sexual byplay and banter MEANS ?

after Bill asks her if she is cheating she comes home that night or the next and has a deep face sucking embrace .... in front of her own home with the Guy Bill has asked about?

Get a grip dude.

*-*-*

...."Neither Bill nor Debbie were at fault AND they both contributed to the condition of the marriage..."

BOTH were at fault and BOTH contributed to the marriage failing.

"..THINKING about fucking other women is not a crime in my current marriage. Fucking other women is....."

Whoa!!!!! Nice straw man there slick.. a LOT more than than happened in the story !!

what about if your wife found Hours and Hours of CHAT Room / emails filled sexual banter with and about fucking ONE specific woman?

WHAT IF YOU WORKED WITH THAT SAME WOMAN EVERY DAY... and SOCIALIZED WITH THAT SAME WOMAN???

Your wife would be ok/ happy with THAT?

the comeuppance for Debbie and Doug that someone commented on is going to be more painful than everyone thinks. Byeee....Dougie.

size14... Look you were in construction... I was in my previous career a Lisc Private Investigator .... working for wells fargo and AIG back in the 1980s . So all I know is to ask questions

Dude 2++ 2 =4. Really

Deb to Lance:"I feel guilty even telling you this, but I can't talk to him about it.

WHY?

if deb really thinks this.....

'...... He's done everything he can to keep me happy. I know there nothing in this world I could ask him to do for me that he wouldn't do. The hell of it is, he's such a good man.....'

THEN WHY CANT SHE TALK TO BILL???

funny how simple question like this can blow your dissertation out of the water

then amazingly You accuse ONLY Bill of being a DICKHEAD and ONLY he is responsible for destroying the marriage

..."It's no denying the marriage was in the toilet and Bill was the dickhead that flushed it...."

****** Yet in the your FROG post you said NEITHER one was at fault. MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!!! ******

LOL!!!!!!!

Your Proof that BILL and ONLY Bill is a dickhead and ONLY Bill is responsible for the marriage being flushed is that he ...according to YOU ... mis read the emails.

Here is your Next STRAWMAN

"....He made a Federal case out of an apparent chaste kiss goodnight......"

NO sir!! if you did go back and re read chapter 1 then you are spinning or lying .

Bill asked her IF she was cheating.... she said no. He asked her if it was with Doug. She said No.

THEN she pulls up to the house kisses him deeply and then LIES about when asked KNOWING Bill was watching.

Dude she KNEW bill was watching.

*-*-*

......Debbie denied kissing Dougie.... Why because in the context of Bill's accusation she hadn't "kissed" Doug...."

welcome to the george Caztanza line of reasoning ...it is NOT a kiss if you say it is NOT a kiss .....

*-*-*

finally Now you engaged is this evil vile attack on Bill. we are done. You are a serious mental case.

"... That "wonderful man" drove his wife to cheat..."

"...the paranoia that Bill exhibited in the "When we were married" bedroom scene? ...."

" ....what kind of nut he was....."

"....Debbie is a fucking -- no pun intended -- saint to have lasted 17 years with this psychopathic mofa......."

I have tried to met you halfway. I have often said that Bill is at fault here. I have Not said the reconciliation is possible or not. I have NOT said that Debbie is solell at fault.

Now You accuse me -- your last post was directed AT me in name --of saying these very things

.....Yeah, Bill should divorce that bitch, cunt, whore Debbie and live a happy life of celibacy alone in his condo, while that bitch, cunt, whore Debbie suffers through the unhappy life of a college professor attending faculty parties, going out with co-workers to have drinks and dance a bit -- when she's not being fucked senseless by her young and energetic lover with the 8" and very hard cock. YOU GO, GIRL!!......

we are done. go fuck your self

To All

I love all your comments I think I enjoy them as much as story if not more.

I'm sure we have all read DQS's other stories in them the husband gets the short end of the stick.

Moment of Clarity

Diane is another man's whore for 4 years the husband leaves her

The Dream Wife

1 st wife has the husband raise another man's child cheats on him until she finds Someone she wants to keep kicks him out of his house and takes his child 2Nd wife cheats Because she says he still loves 1st wife he takes her back

The Last Goodbye

Wife cheats with his partner in his own bed and so on you know the story

The reason I bring the other stories up is I have seen comments they say I know what is going to happen with that said if that if you go by DQS's other stories I would say Bill is Fucked and not in a good way.

As much interest and debate that this story has generated this could be the story that wins or loses the author a following of readers depending on how it ends. It does seem more and more as I think about that there will be no "winner" in the end and Bill will bear the lion's share of the pain in the story but most readers really are eager to see the "torch the bitch" hammer fall on somebody.

You still believe Debbie is the victim here. I wonder if we even read the same story. The following quotes from the novel make it absolutely clear that Debbie has lied, is leading on Lance (Doug) as much as he is leading her on, and acting romanticaly involved with another man before she even tell her husband, Bill, they are through. In my book, telling a boy friend that her husband is a loser who doesn't do it for her anymore, way before telling that to her husband, kissing and romancing in front of hundreds of people at the awards cerimony is breaking the marriage vows and not the actions of a victim. Here are the quotes:

Deb to Lance: I know you're joking, but my husband wouldn't. I'd die, God, if he ever thought I was even flirting with you."

Deb to Lance: …I don't think of you as a child. …And on that blushing note, I've got to go to bed."

Deb to Lance: "You forget I ever wrote this, but if I keep thinking about your abs I'll have some really sweet dreams. Night."

Deb to Lance: That's indelicate, Lance, you pig. :) But you're right. Consummating is like....what Bill and I do. Oh, God, I can't believe I wrote that. But...it's been so long since I've been really FUCKED that sometimes I forget what it was like. I think we used to have that, if I can remember that far back. But now...Bill was never huge to be honest, but the last few years I think he's shrunk. I'll kill you if you ever let a word of this slip. And he gets winded in five or six minutes… I don't know how I made it through the days before we met…

"The worst of it is, I feel so much closer to you than I do to Bill. He's my husband, but he doesn't even know our marriage is dying slowly. He's clueless. Such a smart, smart man, so skillful in the courtroom, but in real life, in our marriage, he's a loser. He's lost my lust, and my respect and slowly he's losing my love…

"I've made a life without him. A lot of times when I tell him I'm at a faculty meeting, I'm out with some girls from school, or girls and guys like the times we've gone out dancing. I haven't done anything wrong, but I want to be someone other than a wife and mother for a few hours. I want to have men look at me and admire me. I wish to God I wanted him to be one of those men, but I really don't care anymore. I don't think of him that way.”

So then Bill has sex with Debbie, she says it was great and then she writes to Lance.

Debbie: "Oh shit, Lance, I don't even know how to say this. Even to you. But, I think Sunday night convinced me....we're not going to make it."

Lance to Debbie: "But you said he was horny as hell and that's what's been missing. He may be late, but it looks like his heart is in the right place."

Debbie to Lance: "That says it all. His heart is in the right place. Mine isn't. He pushed all the right buttons and it was flattering to realize I still get him that excited. But...it was just sex. I realized afterwards that we had sex, but we didn't make love. The vibrator made me cum all over myself, not him. When he was inside me, it was okay, but...."

Debbie to Lance: : ) I know. You forget, I saw you trying to stand up that day in the restaurant. When I wore that low cut blouse. It is VERY VERY HARD. : ) Bye."

And then at the awards ceremony: “I watched from high up the stadium as they laughed and whispered to each other, made those little touches and gestures that are common to lovers everywhere. Their body language made it obvious. They even fed each other a couple of times with intertwined arms. Jesus Christ, talk about making it obvious. That pissed me off as much as anything else. If Debbie was going to cheat on me, at least she could be a little bit less blatant. I had to be an object of high amusement every time I showed up with her.

“And then damned if he didn't tilt her head up toward his – did I mention he was about 6-3 so for a change she had to look up at a man instead of looking down at me –and kissed her on the lips in front of God and everybody. There was a roar of approval. It was like the moment in a romantic comedy when the hero finally sweeps in to grab his love and take her away with him.

“She kissed him back for a moment and then broke away blushing. She sure as hell didn't look like a happily married mother of two teens.

“They were a cute couple. And from the looks other couples gave them, I wasn't the only one who thought so. I wondered what people who knew she was married thought about what was happening. Had she told them we had an open marriage, or that I didn't mind, or that she was going to be free soon? Or maybe academics just didn't give a damn about outmoded concepts like marital fidelity.”

Your and my interchanges have inspired many of my sit-downs to comment, however, I don't write only to you. I sometimes address you by name but more in good natured communication than 'pointing my finger' at you.

For my own enjoyment -- which by the way is why I comment or respond to comments -- I decided to take a look at Bill's part in the whole mess. I was quite surprised to see just how much he did contribute to the ugliness of the break up. One reason I have commented from Debbie's point of view so often is to create some counterpoint to the comments. It seems the vast majority of commentors took Bill's 'side' of things and if we all did, what would be the fun of commenting.

I have enjoyed for the most part our back and forth comments. I think we made for interesting reading and my skin is thick enough to take the rudeness and nastiness that you seem to enjoy dishing out. Don't get me wrong, I like to deliver a zinger or two myself.

Too bad we are done, as you say.

Phil

I have read all your stories and really admire your writing. I can't wait for the next installment.

I do have one criticism, and that is the Dick Cheney thing. I totally agree with you politically there, but that paragraph just did not seem to fit in at all with the rest of the story to me. That is the only flaw I have perceived in all of your writings.

Hope to see more soon!

I can’t believe Deb didn’t go ballistic after all Doug said and did. He played her from the beginning, showing no respect for her marriage and family. Then to know he is sexually attracted to her daughter, whoa where is that going? To top it all off he physically mistreats her. No way would I put up with any of his shit no matter how good he is in the sack. Time for her to man up. <P>

I agree with HDK, let the readers handle the comments.

Get over yourselves guys!

As to the story, it must be one helluva tale to evoke this many comments. I must confess, I'm beginning to worry about how this will end. Debbie and Doug are the least sympathetic figures in this tale. He needs to unleash Lew and let him destroy them both.

I have read and enjoyed all the other chapters of this story and this chapter as well. I'm reluctant to say, but find that i must, that found myself somewhat lost in this latest chapter. A lot of things happened and I can't really put my finger on what to me seems off, more than likely its when things go in a different direction then what i thought they would.

I think of myself as a bit of a Romantic and would to see happy sort of ending, and part of me thinks it could happen, but for now i'll Keep my fingers crossed.

I also find that I can't hate Debbie, I don't agree with her actions and i don't believe her when she says "I just don't love you anymore". I think that her love is buried under years of loneliness and resentment. Things that were said, like where the sheets were, or when she shook a undeveloped thought from her head after haveing sex with Doug, remembering Bills touch in Alaska, lead me to believe this. I also believe that her attraction to Doug is related to Bill, i think she may see Doug as a younger Bill, back when he was younger ambitious working his way up and virile. this is a speculation since we have no description of their past. Oh and a comment on her metaphor of the broken snowglobe, ' You can always repair a broken object it won't be the same but its whole again' you can also say 'You can also get the same snowglobe only new'(the new snowglobe being a beefed up bill).

I would also like to say that while i felt bad for bill i never really pitied him until this chapter, where it seems that his whole family has given up on him. Debbie says she tried to get him to work out but did she really TRY? Did any of them REALLY try to get his attention? I don't think so, they all just seemed to give up on him. Bill to me is like the Emporer with his new clothes, he's just strutting around thinking everythings fine then BAM he's naked, and is now trying to make himself a new pair of clothes.

Some story related comments: I find the lack of a time line confusing, days and weeks passing are mentioned but while the story seems to have passed a few months it sounds like everything has only taken one.

In this story the daughter is said to be the oldest, but i thought i had read that the son was older. All the paragraphs seemed to flow together, with no breaks or pauses ex.( ***********************) this links with my time line comment.

Suggestions: I'm interested in seeing a glimps of what the kids think, they seem conflicted and jittery around their dad, but what do they think of their moms "friend".

After reading and really enjoying DQS's other stories, the path is clear.

The parents have foretold the future. The seducer has fortold the same future. The rest of the story is just the how it comes to be.

I can't wait to see how it will take them there.

And, as a father, I am especially interested in how he will reengage with the kids. I am happy that DQS added that element in 02C, it is something very important in real life that often is missing in Literotica.

but you see when you a dealing with delusional crackpot like size14.... who in one post says neither debbie or Bill are at fault then only 3 hrs later says the ONLY reason the marriage failed was because of mentally unstable Bill.... count on size14 saying that these emails / words from Debbie dont prove anything

you see Doug used his special super sexual predator powers so that ANYTHING debbie does... any words... any emails... andy actions are NEVER her fault....

it was Doug ing who tricked Debbie into thinking that kissing another man in front of their house then in front of THOUSANDS of other people (right before the fight scene) is NOT really ksssing another man....

doug is predator which means he forced debbie to shave her pussy and she didnt even know why

Doug FORCED debbie to say her husband is a loser disgusting to look at and has a small cock

then after Bill and debbie have 1 final session of good sex ... Doug super secret sexual predator powers force her to tell Doug that it was over....

After thinking about the last chapter and where this story was heading most of the day, I knew I would log on tonight to post some comments. But reading all of the comments already made, I realized that all my philosophical points have already been made. Still, I want to say that.....

I really am enjoying the story. The characters are intriguing and I find myself alternating between trying to figure out how their relationship can be saved and devising fun ways for it to go out in a blaze of glory and justice. That said consider some possibilities:

*** As holiday's approach Bill realizes how depressing it will be to spend them in his crummy place, especially when the kids, Debbie and Doug will be spending them in his old home. So he books an dream vacation vacation (Tahiti?) and on a lark invites his boss' stunning receptionist. Then Doug wants to take Debbie to his family for the holidays. She really wants to be with Doug, but she knows that she can't take the kids. So she tries to palm them off on Bill by saying she thought he would like to spend some time with them. Of course Bill wants the kids, but has already spend the money (non refundable) and as already committed to another person. So he has no choice but to refuse. Debbie gets pissed (nothing really new) but Bill digs further to learns her real reasons. Now he begins to see Debbie for the ego-centric person she is. As a bonus consider this follow up possibility: After the new year, Bill's vacation date participates in some type of "professional women's" event and gets seated with Debbie. Debbie inadvertently sees beautiful beach pictures on the date's iphone and asks to see the reset. Half way thru the pictures she asks who the stud is in all the photo's. Debbie is shocked to learn the stud is none other than "Her Bill".. to which the owner of phone replies, "Well if he is your Bill, why did you shave your pussy for another man, then kick him out of your home, file for divorce a week later and start fucking another guy? Doesn't look to me like he's yours anymore."

*** Debbie continues to fight for alimony. Bill finally says "I'z had all I'z can standz I can standz no more".. and after throwing a lot of chum in the water, takes the leash off Lew. As a result, Debbie and Doug both lose their job and UNF throw Bill a LARGE settlement. When she calls Bill to bitch and ask how he could be so cruel and now she really needs his alimony; Bill tells her "I know you believe that my job was always more important than you or the kids. I know that I gave you reason to believe that, but the truth is there was nothing I loved more than you. You have no idea how much pain you've caused. Still I tried to be fair to you and the kids. But you insisted on more, even though I told you I would never give one penney for you to share with your boy toy. Not only will I not give you alimony, but I want you know that I resigned this afternoon. I told them it was because of stress resulting from your abandoment. Tomorrow, Lew will be filling an alimony claim against you." As she holds the phone in stunned silence Bill continues, "I loved you and I'll miss you too. It's a shame your ego destroyed our love and marriage just as your greed has destroyed everything else." . He hangs up.

*** Debbie loses job... after months the only thing she can get is an asst. prof. job in a small struggling NY city college. While she is job hunting, Bill realizes there is much to life other than work, so his resigns and accepts the offer to join a private practice in NY. Months/years later, they run into each other. Is Doug still around? Is Bill single or is he wearing some eye candy? Is Bill being driven in limos and living large while she is taking the city bus? Maybe she accepted a sugar daddy not from love but necessity and she hates that she has been reduced to an acceptable form of prostitution. That's when she meets Bill and begins to truly understand and regret her folly.

I admit it.. I'm torn between seeing this end in wide spread destruction: careeers, finances, hearts and finding a way for Debbie and Bill to fully reconcile. Unfortunately, reconciliation is going to be difficult, because I agree with Bill; What is there to say after she tells that she doesn't love you anymore. An affair, assuming you both want it, is possible to get past. But once you've told your partner that there is no love <shrug of shoulders> I think the party is over. Of course the author could always give them a situation where they had to have contact and over time they rediscovered their love. But I haven't seen any of those threads woven into the story so far.

But hey, I'll keep reading because I really want to know how it is all going to end <weg>

Keep up the good work and try not to make us wait too long between installments.

Dude [size idiot] - you have completely talked yourself into a circle of nonsense and we are confused as to who you are trying to impress? Size 14 - are you having fantasies of being "Doug" in this fictional show because once again you are coming across as trying to "be like Doug" or emulate that self-centered bitch Debbie: so which is it?

I just figured Size 14 was a troll and taking whatever stance he/she thought would ruffle the most feathers and generate responses to him.

A lot of information and background make for a very interesting story to read.

The author must have done his homework on this storyline,because the story is very believable.

How ever the next chapters go I'm sure I will enjoy reading the imaginative work from this fine author.

Thanks for the work.

We seem to be more of a voyeur in Debbie's life.... getting indirect snippets of what she does, who with and her reponses to reactions....all subject to a voyeuristic interpretation....and commented upon voceferously by the readers. But let's hear from her own mouth...so, author do your magic...and put alot of these comments to rest....but please do not unearth any pyschobabble past life that brought her to this stage. Keep it simple, real and provoking...

First I acknowledge you for serving your country in Vietnam. Second I apologize in behalf of the many of us who have dishonored that service by our words and deeds. I only can assume they meant well.

I don't mean to be condescending when I say I thought you might have issues with cheating wives or those we think have cheated and those who are going to cheat.

I further think it is a rotten thing to do to NOT CHEAT but divorce someone in order to be with another man when the husband's life is in danger serving their country.

Please forgive me for any insult or pain you may have felt due to any remarks I have made.

Phil

To paraphrase Mark Twain, it's a small mind that can only see from one point of view. Members of debating teams are given a pro or con side and must debate that side. I have not tried to stir up shit to get people to comment EVEN though I have said something similar. The truth is I don't know why I now in my old age like to see all sides of an argument or in this case a dissolving marriage.

I do come from the notion that it is rarely ever totally one person's fault in any disagreement. IMNSHO what makes this story so popular is that there ARE so many different sides to the story. That is what makes the tale so juicy.

Judging the character of one person or another by taking words spoken in anger and in an adversarial position is mischievous. Such comments should be assessed in the context they are spoken.

In a large number of Loving Wife stories, the wife puts her husband down to the man fucking her. Why? To stroke his ego or get him off hotter. I don't approve of the cheating or that practice but I do understand it. I don't approve of all Debbie says to Doug, but I can understand how she might say things to him as a friend and later as a lover that may or may not be true.

In many a Loving Wife a wife or husband says something and immediately regrets the comment, knowing it was not true but said out of or intending ot hurt. Another example is a wife ragging on a husband for having a small dick when in fact the husband's cock was actually bigger than the man's 'penis' she was fucking.

IMO a safer place to look, providing the author is being honest with the reader, is in the expressed thoughts of the character. An equally dangerous place to go is our own thoughts and assumptions as to what the characters believe.

How many times in Loving Wife stories does the wife cause communication with the husband as a condition of signing divorce papers? Why? To assure him that he, the husband, had nothing to worry about as far as his abilities as a lover were concerned or other such communications of kindness. If DQS goes the route of divorce, I would not be surprised if Debbie had things she wanted to communicate or apologize for. I don't expect a lot of positive communication or apologies when they are adversarial adn pissed off at something the other said.

Therefore conversations between Debbie and Bill must be listened to with the knowledge that shitty things will get said in moments of anger. Shitty deeds will happen when a spouse is angry. Bill left without speaking in the morning. Debbie left that night with the kids for the weekend with her parents without leaving a note. All done in moments of anger. Both assholes had cell phones, not just Debbie.

"You still believe Debbie is the victim here."

No. I still believe Debbie is A victim.

My I ask you a question? Based on Dougie's revealing conversation at the end of Chapter 2C, do you not think Debbie was a victim of Dougie's deliberate campaign to steal her away from her husband? Let me remind you this victimization started before any cheating -- emotional or otherwise -- started. And if you don't think she was a victim, what would you call someone in her place?

I appreciate and accept your apology, but I really didn't take personally as I have resolved the Dear John letter I received on my way home from my first deployment.

I later met and married a beautiful swim suit model from Sad Diego and we have been relatively happy for 43 years.

That being said, as I stated earlier I really do have an issue with cheaters, be they male, female or any other species that apply but that doesn't mean I dint enjoy a good cheating "STORY" and I always root for , as someone recently stated, "THE BURN THE BITCH" outcome,

Thanks much for caring:

TOM

1.-is "Old Wayne" related to "Big Chef Wayne"?---2.- Author, can you please hurry with the next chapter because your readers are now spending more time analyzing their own reactions to the work than analyzing the story, (which is not nearly as complex as one might believe if one were to only read the comments)- and being addicted to commentary I'm now completely out of painkillers.Thanks much.

PPP - I can assure you that Old Wayne and I (Big Chef Wayne) are two different people and, to the best of my knowledge, have never communicated with each other.

I view Debbie and Doug as coconspirators. I think the email messages between them are quite clear showing both leading the other on, more and more as time moved forward to the awards cerimony. Certainy, Bill the husband, contributed by his inattention. All three had a contributation to make to the final break up of the marriage. I don't see any victims here at all. You like to look at all sides of things. Good. So do I. I believe I am doing just that. Now if you want to sprinkle into the mix a viewpoint of victims, then I would say all three are victims: Doug (of his own lust and greed), Debbie (of her need for attention and understanding), and Bill (dedication to his job, his own insensitivity). That's another way to look at it. But I see all three as adults, making mistakes and bringing catastrophic events onto them selves. One of the problems with resolving divisions between people is getting adults to become adults and view themselves as part of the problem and not the victim. (Or, if they are a victim, then a victim of themselves.) As long as people (who are legally adult) view themselves as victims in life, they don't grow up. One of the things that really got my attention from your earlier posts was when you made the pompous statement that probably only 50% of the readers can understand your viewpoint of the characters because the lower 50% need sterotypical characters to understand. That right away sounded like a person that wants to label people to cut out their viewpoints -- just the opposite of your recent posting when you said you want to see all viewpoints.

Debbie must have really poisned the well for their to be that kind of disrespect, to play tickle games and just except her moms boyfriend is really hard to believe, do people really have that kind or relationship with kids this young. Damm.

The Emails

Can Deb's Lawyer claim invasion of privacy ? Bill did pirate her password .

Any thoughts ?

One other thing when Debbie told Bill Kelly was raped he had no response !

It is really amazing to see the response by the readers. I never had the intentions of getting a username but after reading this story I made one to add you as my favorite author. I'm sure this story will be one hell of a journey like a roller-coaster ride.

is that is once you make THAT argument then ANYTHING debbies says writes...says ... speaks... any action etc is NOT her fault. She isnt responsible.

We have already seen several times that thosereaders making that argument are unable to cite anything that debbie has done wrong.

welcome to Phis's version of the 21st century modern liberalism

As I have said before going INTO this debbie was a victim ..in a way. She was the victim...such as it is...of Bill not EVER being there.

but at some point one has to realize that Debbie is responsible for shaving her own pussy.

at one point one has to realize that early on in the emails when Doug was a JUST a friend she could not explain WHY she cant talk to her husband about her unhappness about her loneliness and his getting.

when Bill tried one last time to reach his wife through sex... which may have been a mistake or even insulting that Debbie could be made "happy" by 1 night of good sex... Debbie is the one who said "its over" .

Its Ok to fall out of love . But one is still responsible for the actions that one takes.

And loving the comments. Size14shoe has hit it on the nail from what I read so far. Everyone is at fault here. That is what makes it so interesting, cos it mimics reality more than usual in this section.

Keep up the great work. Can't wait for the next instalment.

QUOTE: The Emails

Can Deb's Lawyer claim invasion of privacy ? Bill did pirate her password .

Any thoughts ?

One other thing when Debbie told Bill Kelly was raped he had no response !

END QUOTE

Bill can't get in trouble for wiretapping or keylogging his own phone/internet/home computer. Maybe it would be an issue if the computer she used was issued by her job.

Even if they can't be used in court Bill can use them to show friends and family that he was justified in his suspicions of adultery and that Debbie was the one ending the marriage. She even admits to Dougie in the e-mails that Bill is a good man and he deserves her love even though she doesn't love him anymore(I'm paraphrasing) and these most of these e-mail discussions and her admissions took place long before Bill was aware there even was a problem.

I think Bobbie and Doug each have correctly identified their prospects for future employment at there current university. Debbie thinks the fight between her husband and Doug will limit her promotional opportunity in the future. She may end up bring stuck in her current rank with only small salary increases over the next decade. By the way, it is rare for an assistant professor to receive tenure without a corresponding change in rank to associate professor. Actually, I think Debbie is at greater risk of losing her job, because her position as Doggie’s mentor , which implies that she cannot objectively advise, supervise, and guide him through the University’s policies and procedures, and culture if she has ab intimate relationship with him. Her seniority could potentially damage his career, because she is in a university-authorized position of authority, and all it would is for the intimate relationship goes south. Hell, I would fire her for poor judgement and sexual assessment.

Doug believes that his future employment at his current university is practically zero. His willingness to get involved with a married woman suggests that he has the morals of an alley cat. His good looks, youth fullness, and high intelligence, combined with the affair with Debbie will get him labeled as a trouble maker; this is because he might go after other married women (including faculty and staff), and students.

Debbie and Doug can substantially improve their prospects at their current institution – BY GETTING MARRIED, which in their case would be equivalent to getting a room. .

HERE ARE ISSUES I AM ANXIOUSLY AWAITING ANSWERS FOR.

1. What event or circumstances will trigger another physical confrontation between Douggie and Bill?

A. Debbie signaling that she is strongly leaning toward confrontation with Bill, This will not motivate Bill, but will Doug, either because he is really committed to her (which I doubt) or because he is in the imploy of someone who wants to control or blackmail Bill;. AS an agent, he needs to get her under control so he’ll be in a better position to control the kids I mean why would Doug fight for Debbie out of LOVE, WHEN HE KNOWS HE WILL LOSE HIS CURRENT POSITION, AND THERE IS LITTLE POSSIBILITY Debbie will uproot her self and the kids to follow him. He’ll initiate a fight a fight only if he is an agent.

B. For Bill, he will initiate an action only if Dough takes action that places one or both of his kids at risk. I believe there is a sexual attraction between the daughter and Doug. If Doug initiates (OR OTHER WISE RESPOND FAVORABLY TO AN ACTION BY THE DAUGHTER) action to exploit it, he will lose Debbie and provoke Bill.

C. So who gets the prize (Dbbie of course!!) –Bill or Doug. I think it will be Bill or A CONTINUING FLOW OF GUYS WITH BIG COCKS.

D. Will Bill be able to repair his relationship with his kids. YES. But only if he demonstrate he has balls (and he can demonstrate he can control their mother).

I HAVE NEVER EVER SPENT MORE TIME THINKING ABOUT A STORY AS I HAVE THIS ONE. I LOVE IT!!

dela.now`@live.com

We have seen the author in prior submissions leave his characters at the end of the story...still in love with each other or being friends WITH the marriage dead. I think this story will resolve itself the same way.....time and distance may get them together in the future but only after sufficient exploration of being involved with others ,,,and with LIFE. The HARSHNESS expressed, like anger, needs cooling to properly address the impact of their decisions. Seems their actions are more reactionary than positive. Hey..shit happens in real life...and donkeys and mules seem to lead....but it all works out for the better.

I love these characters. They are so messed up. Which, of course, makes the story interesting. But they are perceptive. <P>

Debbie has correctly assessed that her career at UNF and probably elsewhere is toast. Doug, being younger, can probably move and recover - but after carefully seducing Debbie has wound up falling in love with her. I guess you could be careful what you wish for. Bill harbors no illusions about himself although I do think he since his self esteem is in the toilet he is being too harsh.<P>

Okay, since I am late in commenting pretty much everything has already been said - a number of times.<P>

I have to wonder though, where did Debbie see this thing with Doug going? Getting married and living happily ever after? What was she thinking? Was she thinking? Please note the difference in ages between Debbie and Doug are the same as the daugher and Doug. HMMMM. Except Doug has a thing for older women - starting with his first serious relationship. Tough getting over a first love.<P>

Thanks for sharing.

dela.now`@live.com wrote:

"C. So who gets the prize (Dbbie of course!!) –Bill or Doug. I think it will be Bill or A CONTINUING FLOW OF GUYS WITH BIG COCKS.

D. Will Bill be able to repair his relationship with his kids. YES. But only if he demonstrate he has balls (and he can demonstrate he can control their mother)."

Why would Debbie be the prize? Why would Bill have to demonstrate that he can control Debbie in order to repair his relationship with his children? A confrontation with Doug and a mission to win Debbie back would probably make good drama, but is that the way it would go down in real life? I honestly doubt that.

I`ve written this before so I`ll write it again: Debbie is not in love with Bill anymore, that happens. The best thing to do would be for both of them to go on with their separate lives with the common consensus between them to spend as much time as possible with the children (separately of course). It`s better to have two happy loving parents living separate lives than to have two parents living together in a troubled marriage. Probably not the best role models for the children, but a lot better than to have Deb and Bill trying to reconcile and ending up in a bad relationship.

Maybe Bill still loves Deb, but the thing that he identifies as love is probably 50 % the love to a family unit. If he tries to repair his relationship with his children and succeeds, the 50 % will go away. Then we have 50 % left which is true love for Deb. How long will that 50 % remain when he meets someone new? Probably not too long. Same thing goes for Deb.

Conclusion: Instead of fighting with each other they should try to make the best of the present situation. Am I simplifying things too much?

Considering the way this author's other stories have ended he's due for a "torch the Bitch" ending or something close to it. Debbie has done way too much to humiliate Bill and its on going not just a small isolated incident. Yes I understand Bill got complacent and let his job take over too much of his time from his wife and kids but that was something that happened due to Bill trying to provide for his family. Everything Debbie is doing to Bill now is just for herself in detriment to the family and herself in the long run. I think Bill is better off without Debbie and the kids. The kids aren't that young. Daughter is 17 and son is 16(?). Not really great ages to attempt reconciliation especially if Debbie has been poisoning and undermining Bill to them for an extended period of time. Bill should get through the drama of the divorce , let the kids know that the door is always open to them if they want to talk or see him, then he should move on to private practice for the big bucks and young pussy far away from his ex-family.

DEAR FELLOW READERS: I POSTED THESE COMMENTS YESTERDSY June 3 (early evening). I decided to post a corrected version, because after reading the comments again, I realized I can’t spell or write worth a DAMN. I HAVE ALSO ADDED COMMENTS. SORRY!!

I think Dobbie and Doug each have correctly identified their prospects for future employment at their current university. Debbie thinks the fight between her husband and Doug will limit promotional opportunities available to her in the future. She may end up bring stuck in her current rank with only small salary increases over the next decade. By the way, it is rare for an assistant professor to received tenure without a corresponding change in rank to associate professor. Actually, I think Debbie is at greater risk of losing her job, because of her position as Doug’s mentor. Most universities require that a mentoring relationship should be based on professional standards, ethical and moral rules of behavior. A romantic or sexcual relationship would violate these standards. It would be difficult for a mentor to provide objective advise, proper supervision, and guide a junior colleague through the maze of University’s policies and procedures, and culture if the mentor has an intimate relationship with trhe junior person. Her seniority could potentially damage his career, because Debbie is in a position of authority and power she can use her position to direct his personal and professional life; which could easily occur if their relationship goes. Hell, I would have fired fire her for poor judgement and sexual assessment.

Doug believes that his future employment at his current university is practically zero. His willingness to get involved with a married woman suggests that he has the morals of an alley cat. His good looks, youth fullness, and high intelligence, combined with the affair with Debbie will get him labeled as a trouble maker; this is because he might go after other married women (including faculty and staff), and students.

Debbie and Doug can substantially improve their prospects at their current institution – BY GETTING MARRIED. Ther University has certain moral (community) satandards it must uphold. The University would receive strong community opposition if it became known that single and married faculty member were allowed to openly carry on a romantic or sexual relations in full public view. This is exactly what Debbie and Doug were doing at the award function.

HERE ARE ISSUES I AM ANXIOUSLY AWAITING ANSWERS FOR.

1. What event or circumstances will trigger another physical confrontation between Douggie and Bill?

A. Debbie signaling that she is strongly leaning toward reconciling with Bill, This will not motivate Bill, but it will Doug; either because he is really committed to her (which is bullshit!!) or because he is in the employ of someone who wants to control or blackmail Bill;. AS an agent, he needs to get her under control so he’ll be in a better position to control the kids I mean why would Doug fight for Debbie out of LOVE, WHEN HE KNOWS HE is definitely going to LOOSE HIS CURRENT POSITION, AND THERE IS LITTLE POSSIBILITY Debbie will uproot her self and the kids to follow him. He’ll initiate a fight a fight only if he is an agent.

B. For Bill, he will initiate an action only if Dough takes action that places one or both of his kids at risk. I believe there is a sexual attraction between the daughter and Doug. If Doug initiates an action (OR OTHER WISE RESPOND FAVORABLY TO AN ACTION BY THE DAUGHTER) to exploit it, he will lose Debbie and provoke Bill.

C. So who gets the prize (Debbie, of course!!) –Bill, Doug, or someone else. I think it will be Bill or A CONTINUING FLOW OF GUYS WITH BIG COCKS. Good old Bill will gladly take her back if there is credible evidence thst Doug was hired to seduce Debbie. I think the emails demonstrate that while Debbie was unhappy, it was only when Doug came on the scrne that she decided to step out on her marriage. Now, why she would think that Doug would have an interest in having a long term relationship with her is beyond my comprehension. NAIVE WOMAN!!!

D. Will Bill be able to repair his relationship with his kids. YES. But only if he demonstrate he has balls (and he can demonstrate he can control their mother).

The kids have lost all respect for daddy, and he’ll have to accomplish a major feat. Recall in chapter one the son tell his dat how could he tell him what to do when he can’t control his wife.

I HAVE NEVER EVER SPENT MORE TIME THINKING ABOUT A STORY AS I HAVE THIS ONE. I LOVE IT!!

Just a comment about the professional futures for Debbie and Doug. From their behavior at the awards ceremony and the fist fight that ensued between Bill and Doug, the probable futures for Debbie and Doug at UNF went from good to bad. I've been in academia for decades full time at a well known west coast university. I performed teaching, research, and committee services. Debbie remains an assistant professor at age 39. She teaches and actually still hand corrects student exams (I still do this also). But there is no mention of her doing research. To her credit, she's Doug's mentor. I would predict that her future at UNF is pretty much as she stated to Bill, i.e., not so rosy. She was smart to think of increasing Bill's alimony payments for the divorce. With Doug, he claims that he has 10 publications, more than most people having more experience than he has. Well, most lightly he would not be judged solely by the total number of articles he has published. True this number is a factor, and even some of my past junior colleagues have thought the total number of papers was The Criterion for evaluating research accomplishments. Not so, there are a number of other important factors such as originality of research performed, benefits of the research toward searches for new ways of improving life (this particularly in the healing sciences), number of articles on which the person is listed as the first (or principal) author, the quality of the peer reviewed journals the articles/papers are published in, the total number of pages of all the articles published (or posted (I'm told that a posting on the Internet is in fact a publication). So at face value what Doug says is alone not true. But where would Doug find the time to even think about research, let alone doing it and applying for grant support to conduct the research. Doug is addicted to having affairs with older women as well as gals his age and younger. That takes time and energy that he could devote to research in the field of business administration.

Regarding DQS's track record in past stories that he seemingly has left unfinished. Well, I know that there are top-notch authors posting in "Loving Wives" who could continue these stories and provide them with endings. I agree that he does end some stories which at least to me seem to require continuations. I recall the one about the English Professor living with his wife in the south; the professor left her because of her cheating, and their son, to return to New England. RAG

Somewhere in the vastness of the flood of comment regarding this exciting story I remember reading that Bill's boss (the former basketball star from the University of Florida) runs for Governor of Florida and Bill runs for Attorney General. I wonder if there is some truth to this, and if the story is partly based upon a real life story?

Damn - didn't have any in for this chapter! Now I do, so please don't make me wait too long for the next. What a great read, good story line, loved it!!!!.

I disagree that DQS leaves stories unfinished.

I had to read a Moment of Clarity 5 or six times.

At first I was distracted by the unconventional structure.

After the fourth read, I tried to finish for myself the lose ends.

After the fifth read, I found there wasn't any loose ends. Everything was there. Past present and future. All one had to see was that these marvelously self aware characters were seeing the truth from there perspective.

Every "throw away" line or bit in that story needed to be read. It was perfect.

And it was indeed in it's own way, a "Torch the bitch" story. He lives happily fulfilled life ever after. She is doomed to a life of a Trailer Trash bitch, never finding love again.

This is a similar story. Just like in the first, it has been fore told that the hero will triumph, and the Heroine is doomed.

Except that in this story the Hero bears some of the fault for the Heroine's fall (to this point) and due to the more conventional structure we will see more of the story played out.

I fear that the multi submission format, the length and the more conventional structure may lead to some "throw away" threads, but I doubt it. DQS's stories have been awesome, and this one, so far, up to this lofty standard.

As we wait for the next chapter - we also must wait for size guy's fatal explanations of dis-illusion. And we were so looking forward to "today's laugh" episode.

A lot of comments have been made as to when the next chapter will be available. I agree It would be great if the author could write faster but we have to be patient and let him do as good a job as we know he can. The problem I have is that this author has set the bar so high that most of the other people who submit ( no disrespect intended) don't come up to this level of story telling. Because of this I find myself not reading other stories as much.

"One other thing when Debbie told Bill Kelly was raped he had no response !"

And what would be the point of responding? Bill was limiting the conversation with Debbie to matters related to the divorce. Debbie may have said that to rag on Bill, to stir him up. Did the rape actually occur? We have only the words of that "lying, cheating cunt," Debbie to go on. Are we only to believe what Debbie says when it suits us?

If it went down like Debbie told Bill let us remember that Kelly begged her mom not to tell her Dad. Why tell Bill? It's not like anything would have happened to the 16 yo kid. No good would have come of the disclosure.

DQS is male, comes under age group of 51-60. I can hardly see any female reader here. You took on Harry and whoever you don't agree with...all of them male. Whom you are really trying to impress? Or are you gay? Enough now man, wait for the next chapter to come out.

As a rule I don't have conversations with anonymous commenters. So I'm breaking a rule here to respond to the an anonymous commenter.

I don't consider my differing point of view to be **disagreement** per se with anyone commenting here just a differing POV. In the spirit of discussion I might provide what I consider "evidence" that supports my POV or further explain why I think the way I do.

To paraphrase Mark Twain, as I have done here before, It's a damn poor mind that can only consider one point of view. Those who cannot comprehend such considerations, i.e., differing points of view, are easily identified by the congnitive dissonance demonstrated in their responses when confronting differing points of view..

Impressed?

phil

This submission has received highest number of comments, on lit in LW category. Keep writing.

Some things to ponder Kelly is 17 Bill & Deb have been married 17 years Hmmm

Was deb knocked up when they married ? would seem so Is Kelly Bill's child ?

To quote Mr Big Foot Deb is a lying, cheating cunt," Has Deb been a cheat all along ?

Or is this the first time she was caught ?

The protective order let's think about this what Judge in there right mind would issue it with out some evidence and against a prominent DA ! Did Bill strike or threaten Deb No Did he harass her No

Hell he will not even take her phone calls also normally the protective order would state he can contact her or go to there martial home so his phone call would not have happened as a lawyer he would know that.

OK forget everything I just said the protective order is issued Bill's carer would be in the crapper he would most likely be suspended along with is law License.

One last thing Deb a 40 year old woman who has unprotected sex with a womanizer.

Is she really that stupid ? I will answer my own question Yes so may be a STD is in Deb's future we only can hope LOL

this tale. But I would suggest for your consideration (DQS) to at least complete the relationship with Bill and his children... In really life this may lead to a suicide of Bill and / or one of the children...I think you have left too many unanswered tag ends.. Which is fine is some cases...

please let us know when you post the next chapter, eagerly waiting for this story's next chapter.

Debbie has a few things to figure out and relatively quickly.

1. Something is keeping her from completely giving herself emotionally to Doug. Why can't he accept that he is a friend that she is sexually compatible with. It seems to be apparent to Doug that her feelings for him have not progressed beyond this point and he is calling her on it.

2. She is seeing Doug for what he is and he has admitted that he seduced the Dean's secretary and he was well on his way to his second staff seduction when he met Debbie and decided to devote his complete attention to bedding her within minutes of meeting her. Very sound basis for a friendship. It was never his intention to be a friend. He also admits that marriage is not something that stands in his way when he wants someone. He will get what he wants and any destruction and chaos that ensues is not of his concern until now, when he wants, no, demands that his fantasy of happily ever after needs to be fullfilled. Forget the fact that he was probably involved in the destruction of one other marriage. After all, the son still calls him, even though his mother has gone through a divorce and several boyfriends. It was his first serious relationship with an older woman. If her son calls him all the time, why doesn't his mother, since they were so close?

3. Now Debbie realizes she has competition in the form of her own daughter, who is a younger version of herself, and every bit as good a tease as mamma. Where did she learn this, and why is she so blatant with her flirtation? Surely I did not teach her this? Why is she after Doug? Doesn't Kelly know that this is wrong to make a fellow family member uncomfortable at the very least?

4. Being a civilized and enlightened person, Debbie sees no reason why she and her husband could not part amicably and be supportive of each other and at least be friends. She is really into this friends with benefits thing she keeps hearing from the coworkers and students. Doug slapped her into reality when he told her that he saw the look in Bill's eyes when she turned her back on him after the fight. Doug knew he had won and that Bill would never want Debbie back after this betrayal. Then Doug rubbed it in more when he followed it with his understanding of Bill's position by saying he would not want her back either under those circumstances.

5. Doug tells Debbie how easy she was, because she was already looking to cheat and the only one who could not see it was herself. He absolves himself of any responsibility for the destruction of her marriage, because in his eyes she was already on the road to ending it one way or the other. She was a party animal and everyone knew her husband was not invited for years.

6. What is wrong with everbody? Her collegues are always talking about their theories about relating to others while still having every right to want what you want. People should be proud to acknowledge that each individual is just that and should accept that selfishness is in fact a noble attribute, therefore the trangressions are merely temporary and forgivable.

7. Doug admitted that he is the butt of many MILF and COUGAR jokes since the awards gala. He doesn't quite understand why he is being so disrepected by his peers. After all, Debbie wanted it as much as he did, and in today's morality this is a minor trangression. What is especially confusing is that everyone thought that Debbie and Bill had an open relationship, because she always was out without her husband. It had happened for so long that he surely had to be complicite. Why then is it obvious that his career at UNF is almost at an end? Hell, they even appluaded their kiss at the awards ceremony, and whispered what a cute couple they were, until Bill showed up. Debbie was unaware that Doug was the subject of these kind of jokes. If his students and collegues have this view of him, then what do they think of me? Am I also a laughing stock within my career that I have given my entire adult life to grooming?

8. Why doesn't everyone see that I told Bill I did not love him anymore and that it doesn't really matter that he found out after we separated that I was going to replace him. After all, since the cultural revolution of the Sixties, isn't it generally accepted that this is now a society based on convenience, not moral principles?

Just how do I feel about these questions and subjects, and how do I resolve them to my satisfaction without destroying my self image?

size14shoe said:

<i>If it went down like Debbie told Bill let us remember that Kelly begged her mom not to tell her Dad. Why tell Bill? It's not like anything would have happened to the 16 yo kid. No good would have come of the disclosure.</i>

Why tell Bill? Bill is the girl's father, and the wishes of a 15 year old girl shouldn't override the father's right to know that his daughter was the victim of a crime.

What could Bill have done? If Bill had handled Ricky Thompson's parents half as adroitly as he handled the Texas mega-millionaire, then little Ricky would have been on his way to a military boarding school somewhere far away by the end of the day. Instead, he's smirking at Kelly every time he sees her at school.

But Bill never got the chance to do anything because Debbie, already contemptuous of Bill and what she saw as his civil service job, made a unilateral decision that she had no right to make. Just like the decision she made about Bill Jr. and their college neighbor (though I admit to having an indefensible double standard about whether BJ was harmed). I'm sure Debbie was highly amused by Bill's later humiliation when he tried to give BJ a "birds and bees" talk, and I wouldn't be surprised if she set it up or at least let it happen.

As far at how the kids have been raised, I remember someone saying that teenagers should be nailed in a barrel and fed through the bunghole. Then, when they turn 21 you decide whether to let them out or drive in the bung.

Bill’s kids are surly, disrespectful and don’t want to spend time with their parents. In other words, they’re typical teenagers. As long as the kids aren’t jacking cars, doing drugs, making or having babies or flunking out of school, then Bill and Debbie – mostly Debbie -- did a pretty good job.

Yes, Bill has been an absentee father, and we was guilty of ignoring his family in favor of his job. Bill seems to have had the idea that as long as things are quiet, they don't need his attention. But it looks like Debbie has not only allowed the situation, she actively encouraged it.

What possible significance could Debbie's being pregnant when they got married have in this story?

This story is so good, I find myself checking several times a day to see if the next installment is posted. I have read the 4 chapters at least 3 times and they are just as good the second and third time.

I can't see why this author isn't published? His work needs to be seen by a larger audience than Literotica. The character development and dialogue are excellent. If his works were at Barnes and Noble, I would buy. He is just as good as my favorite authors. Please consider it!

Kelly was raped? I Don’t Think So. Maybe technically she was because of the age thing.

Debbie tells Bill in the midst of a bitter divorce proceedings: “.And our children are not five years old. They know about sex already, Bill. You may not know about it, you probably don't, but Kelly is on the pill. Has been since she was 15. That's when that fucker Ricky Thompson down the street got her drunk at a party. And before you say anything, she was 15 and he was 16. I had her tested. I wasn't going to drag her through court and humiliate her to have his wrist slapped. She begged me not to tell you and there was no reason to.”

What do we have here?

Kelly got drunk and told her mother that the kid from down the street screwed her. Did Ricky get her drunk or did Kelly drink too much at the party? Ricky was chronologically older than Kelly but she was physiologically older. Yes, girls do mature faster than boys. I’d put my money on Kelly fucking Ricky, not the other way around.

Why does she fear telling Dad? My guess is Kelly doesn’t want the Dad to know she was drinking at age 15 nor does she want her prosecutor Dad asking questions and revealing that it was she who instigated the sex.

Even so, why doesn’t Debbie tell Bill? If Debbie wants Kelly to EVER tell her anything significant in Kelly’s life, Debbie damn well better not tell Bill. A second reason Debbie didn't want to tell Bill may have been she didn't want Bill to know how poorly supervised Kelly was. Where the hell were the parents who hosted this party? That's that angle I would be pursuing if I were Kelly's parent. I'd be more than pissed if my 15 y.o, daughter was in that situation. I'm sure there is some line of thinking that Ricky brought the booze to the party but we will never know, will we.

Word to the wise: You don't want to get in a pissing contest with a skunk.

size 14 shoe wrote

What possible significance could Debbie's being pregnant when they got married have in this story

My first thought was it was mis Q on the author's part Kelly is 17 and Bill & Deb married 17 years still could be I guess I was just wondoring if any one else agreed that's it

I recall as a child a friend of the family running for public office at the Illinois state level. He was probably in his 30's and I was still a kid around 11 or 12. But what was striking about him that even I noticed was that his campaigning for the office changed his personality enormously. Previously he'd been somewhat of a loner and stayed away from involvement in conversations but with his campaigning statewide he became one of the nicest, most considerate people around. If what I read in one of the comments, namely that Bill's boss (I guess the Attorney General of Florida now in the story) intended to run for Governor of Florida and might ask Bill to run for Attorney General with him is true, Bill's campaigning might just be the ticket to making him more interesting and likable to the public as well as to (all) his colleague and small number of friends. I read the comment, who seemed credible, but I have since been unable to relocate it in any of the 4 chapter's comments sections. Also, with Bill's exercise and diet changes he'll gain more confidence which might help beef up his interacting with people outside the workplace. When the heck is Chapter 5 going to be posted? RAG

I've read or re-read some of the author's other stories. His writing is really good but his endings suck. As much as I am liking this story so far I have a bad feeling that the ending isn't going to live up to the wonderful story build up and development.

Time for an update please. Riveting story!

In response to the latest comment, not sure when the next chapter -2D- will post. I posted it sunday, 6-6-10, but I made the mistake of going back in to look at something today 6-7-10 and it apparently threw the story out of rotation or something and I had to re-submit it. I probably should resubmit again because there are a couple of mistakes in here. I'm not going to say what they are but I'm sure some eagle eyed readers will spot them. But I hate to do that because it means putting the story back ANOTHER day. I'll probably let well enough alone and not touch it again, meaning the editing period or whatever the web site does while the story is pending will begin from this afternoon (6-7) Again, I apologize only because a lot of readers apparently check the site every day for new chapters. I know I've done it with some stories I really liked and most of those posted every day. I've done this before once or twice when I was posting and screwed things up, but those weren't serials but single stories so no one noticed or cared. Anyway, sorry again but it will probably be two or three days from today (maybe 6-9 or 6-10) before it posts. And this one, without giving anything away, will be something different. I'm not sure if readers are going to love it or hate it. I'm anxious to see the fallout.

keep up the great work. i would love to see bill and debbie get back together. thanks.

I think the word victim is too loaded and would need to be defined. If the definition includes that being a victim means that one is in no way a participant in what has happened to them then she cannot be a victim. I think that so far we know this about Debbie. First, she was ripe for the picking, because of Bill (certainly), second, she was also seduced by a very adept womanizer. I don't think we know as facts any more than this. But I think we can infer that there is more that DQS has not revealed yet. I refer to her cryptic (to me at least) remarks about Bill being responsible for all of this and her intense anger with him, it is possible that those remarks simply refer to the fight, but I think the remarks imply that she thinks he is the one who ended the marriage. Also, I think there are further clues back in the first chapter when Bill was talking to his secretary about his wife. The secretary seemed to be saying that his wife had been the (OK I won't use the word victim) target of someone or more than one person from his office. I think that those initial four words "When we were married" are going to take on additional meaning in later chapters, and when we understand why she thought they weren't married any more, we will better understand her part in this story.

I do believe she loves Bill, even though right now at this point of the story even she doesn't believe that she loves him. Its just a feeling, we don't know enough to say with certainty either way yet. Probably the most evidence for her loving Bill is that Doug believes it. I am inferring that his fear of losing her back to Bill is the reason for his outburst at the end of this chapter. Oh, and I firmly believe Doug really does love Debbie too, in his own slimy way.

OK, I have a lot of predictions and guesses about what is coming up. The one that I'm most certain of I made earlier, Bill is going to get his ass handed to him next time he takes on Doug (if they do fight, it's the only remotely realistic outcome considering Doug was a golden gloves champion, I don't care how good of shape Bill get in, or how hard he practices in the boxing gym). This fight is going to be different from the first in a number of ways. One of them being that Doug is going to be the one doing the trash talking and tricking Bill into throwing the first punch. Then he's going to go to work. The reason Doug is going to punish Bill is because Doug used to just pity the guy, but now he sees him as an actual rival. I'm thinking the results of this upcoming altercation will have Debbie reacting very differently than she did the first time and coming to Bill's aide this time. It may in fact be the incident that makes Debbie realize her own feelings concerning Bill. Though I can't imagine Bill will be willing to forgive or forget what she did the first time.

OK, now it's back to the waiting game.

Doug was an amateur boxer. Bill is going to a gritty 'hood gym. The author lays down the groundwork for the effectiveness of the boxing when the story flashes back to the case with the rich guy's son and how the victim kicked the body guards asses. When Bill first get evaluated to box the old guy tells him that getting beat up will become natural to him and he'll eventually just shake it off.

Amateur boxers are technically good boxers but are generally known to not be hard punchers or able to take a hard punch from a pro boxer very well. I think Doug is going to under-estimate Bill even if he goes full out in a confrontation plus Bill has nothing to do but work at his job and train. In addition these guys aren't going to be going at it in the ring but basically a good old fashioned street fight and Bill has already proven he'll fight dirty.

A big part of Debbie's problem with Bill is she has stopped looking at him as a "man" and the man in her life. Bill getting back in shape and then kicking some ass is going to wake her back up to her true feelings for him, although much too late.

If the definition includes that being a victim means that one is in no way a participant in what has happened to them then she cannot be a victim"

.

By this definition a whole group of people who would normally be considered victims are not victims after all: date rape, various cons, a wide variety of scams perpetrated against the unsuspecting elderly. Dougie may not be a predator as it is not know if he is a habitual exploitor.

.

From Wikipedia:

The term "sexual predator" is often considered distinct from "sex offender". Many U.S. states also see these differences legally. A sexual offender is a person who has committed a sexual offense. A sexual predator is often used to refer to a person who habitually seeks out sexual situations that are deemed exploitative.

You are right he might be 'Predator' not 'Offender', as predator is someone who get his needs fulfilled without considering fact who might get hurt, but he had to find a flaw, simply he takes advantage, and Offender is one who creates situation does not need any invitation, uses his own ability to get what he want, no need to take advantage. In both case there are victims, but Debbie is not victim of Doud, she is the weakness of there marriage, of which Doug had taken advantage, because of this weakness Bill has to suffer, so Bill is the one who is VICTIM here. and You said your self Offender are different, so in that case Debbie would have been victim. It does not mean Seducer cannot be called Sex Offender. Look clearly at the picture, If Daug seduced Debbie, and Debbie had been unknown of his seduction, and it would have destroyed her marriage, then Debbie would have been Victim. But Debbie knew from the very starting what he was doing, that is why it was not any news for her when , Daug told her about his intention when he first met her. She was willingly participating in it. You think Debbie is victim, that is you Opinion, nothing else, because you dont know Debbie personally, every reader here knows about her character equally.

And in my opinion only victim here is Bill, Doug is a Sexual predator and his victim his Bill, Debbie is abuser , victim is Bill, Kids disrespectful to their dad victim is Bill, Everybody knows about Debbie , victim of embarrassment is Bill.

One who made mistake could be a victim, And Bill made lots of them. What Debbie did was not mistake, it simple decision under no pressure no environment, in fact she deliberately created environment and manipulated Bill. She is been manipulating and abusing Bill fro very beginning. She is making hateful comments on Bill, She want to do nothing with him but still want to grab as much money as much she can from him. She is not only adulterous, bad mother, abusive wife but also greed and selfish bitch. And if you know what predator means, she is going to be one of them the way she looking from money from bill. Predators do nothing but take advantage of others, and she is taking advantage of Bill's kind attitude.

Incestor (what a foul fucking name) it's very hard to take you seriously. You are straying into the realms of Moronic City. Enough already...Mancelt.

Is another ch. so everyone can move on, quit picking a great story apart and just enjoy it for the entertainment it was ment to be. Sooner than later, Thanks.

Lew, Bill attorney says to Bill,

"Mutual Assured Destruction, Mr. Assistant State Attorney. You narc on me and I tell the beautiful Debbie about that District Attorney from, where was it, Oakland, that you were playing with at that conference two years ago in Chicago. You know, the one who could tie two cherry stems together with her tongue?"

Bill was cattin' around a full year before Dougie came to UNF. Did Bill fuck that DA from Oakland? Probably not but his righteous indignation over Debbie's relationship with Dougie is a bit much, I'd say. Remember that the emails were clear that nothing was going on in her world for at least 4 months after he became her assistant. Dougie was quietly escalating the seduction. Each step was a little bit more "over the line" but so gradual that Debbie would have been an ass to say another about something he said. Like has been said, Doug was a skilled seducer/predator.

Debbie and the kids withheld crucial information from

Bill involving individual and shared experiences. Why did they do this; what did they stand to gain by excluding Bill from events and activities which he should have been informed about and given the opportunity to participate in the decision-making. The kids were concerned that if daddy learned of the “rapes” he may very well have taken actions against the perpetrators. I’d be willing to bet there were other things the kids were involved in that he knew nothing about. Debbie informed Bill after the fact that he was kept out of the loop because she did not want the kids traumertize any more than they already had been. I think she had another reason: by letting the kids know in various ways that she had the authority and power tro protect them, they in turn reciprocated by not sharing with dear old DAD what MOMMY was doing when he was not around. Debbie started going to social gatherings, dinners, and clubs long before Doug came along. So her friends and colleagues were not surprised of her going solo, and some likely supported the evolving relationship with Doug. I am sure the kids were aware that MOMMY had a social life independent of their dad, and probably “aided and abetted" her efforts, because they and mommy had concluded that daddy only cared about his job. I am not blaming the kids for this state of affairs; Debbie is clearly at fault!! Would Bill Have taken a more active interest in his kids affairs if he had been kept informed? I think he would have.

Several readers mentioned that the kids attitude and behavior toward Doug were odd for Teenages. I do not think this is correct, because they were well aware of their mothers’ outings, and not surprised when Doug appeared before the ink was dry on the divorce petition. THEY KNEW, because mommy had already prepared them.

DEBBIE IS NO DAMN VICTIM!! Well, I guess you could also say that she is a victim of her own stupidity and gullibility.