All Comments on 'Milo and the Manosphere'

People dealing with their angels and demons - and navigating a weird world. Very sweet.

Maybe they will be happy!

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Thanks for sharing...

A very inspiring read, asking the right questions more often than not can lead to personal clarification thus conviction!

That was a very good read!

Beyond fucking stupid. There's no excuse for mgtow and this was a waste of time.

A thought provoking, story telling camel!!! Well done!

Thought the Manosphere stuff was boring, but Jessie's storyline was very compelling. Wouldn't mind another chapter that focused on Jessie's and Milo's relationship, without all the self-improvement nonsense.

Thanks really enjoyed the story.

Makes you wonder though just like in life, men think they understand women and women think they understand men, when really both are in the dark. The only way to understand is to question what do we really know, the answer is something like not much at all.

We make choices, and they are rarely what others would make, but do we really care in the end?

An interesting take on the ongoing war between the sexes.

I'm glad it worked out for Milo, but he was very lucky that Jessie came to visit him at the conference. If this had been real life, the odds are that she would've done something very stupid and destroyed their marriage before Milo had a chance to change the way she viewed her husband.

interesting... Put it in my favorites...because the logical philosophical trains in this story deserve further contemplation. Frankly, this one I view as unresolved... The character you have described is not in love with her husband in a married sense. True marriage is based upon two partners giving each other unconditional love in which they place the needs of the other before themselves. Your development of the Jessie character frames her as a classic sociopathic narcissist who frankly is a sex addict. She is bound by what the greeks called pornea..in which one uses others as walking tools to satisfy their momentary sexual impulses. As a sociopathic sex addict...she is on a relentless quest to satisfy her sexual addiction. It is the classic monkey on the back...who grows into a gorilla as she feeds it. She fed it until her actions left her abandoned as the cheap whore she is in the gutter. Milo rescued her, fantasized her as a valid mate, and made the mistake of marrying her.

Like the story postulates, she is grateful...but does not "love" him...she is instead in pornea...and he is her temporary safe haven. Unfortunately a sociopathic narcissist is constitutionally unable to love anyone other than themselves. They are utterly amoral...and are constrained from acting out on their momentary impulses by outward constraints with clear and pressing punishments. One cannot ever trust a sociopath, because they can and will act out in secret given proper triggering circumstances.

Milo, initially recognizes this reality, but seems to have retreated into his delusional belief that Jessie can self regulate with a little encouragement. That is unfortunate, because their relationship is not marriage..it is pornea with the certainty of imminent betrayal of the worst sort., Milo has two simple alternatives available: Divorce or Concentration Camp. If they stay together, he will assume the role of chief commandant of their prison camp marriage. He will also become chief of his own Gestapo responsible for constant monitoring of her behavior and enforcing appropriate punishment,

Frankly, staying together is my own personal definition of Hell on Earth... The men in the Manosphere are absolutely correct...she is a sociopathic, narcissistic slut who cannot be "fixed." Divorce is the only real option.

Interesting tale...I give it 5 stars for its fascinating exploration of the Male/female psyche...

I love a long story that lays out the intent and finishes the thought. Well done I enjoyed this one.

Shockingly good, and from an author I'm not sure I even like. So well put together, tight-roping a fine line between cuckholdry and total chauvinism. Between juvenile, immature men and mature. Took both sides of the issue and some in between. This story dragged me into it, and wouldn't let go. Total #5. Thanks.

One of the top-20 Literotica stories of all time. Wow. Almost like going to the seminar with a practical example running simultaneously. A great idea brought off with near-perfection! 5+++++++++++++++/5!!!

Thought provoking and very well written. 5 stars

Fascinating insights here. I wonder what women readers would think of the story. Five stars.

Wow! Huge chunks of Motherlode. ALL of the main characters are here. Wonderful vehicle for putting it all out there. Sustained all the way through. Well done. Thank you for this remarkable effort.

LWlurker

great. Masterfully, covered so much including some great truths

I was watching a program on PBS a while back and there was a guy who was wet, muddy and looked like he was working as a convict in a make work program. Then out of the muck and mud he pulled out a brilliant green gemstone. In the muck it was just a small facet that was visible but with time it revealed it was a large, beautiful gemstone. The more I read of this story the more I realized it too was a beautiful Gemstone. 5 Stars.

My gods do I love laughing at juvenile men.

Very good story with some interesting philosophy

There is s reason WHY FreddieTheCamel is the BEST new writer/author in LW category in Literotica.

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This story shows why.

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Out fucking goddamn standing

I liked the story. It developed slowly in a good way. Then all the sudden it was a rush to the ending. It went from I was going to cheat on you to lets pregnant in a page.

A lot to think about here. I’m not big on black and white, or absolutes. When folks generalize “everyone, all women, men, us, them,” I tend to take what they say with a grain of salt. I believe there are vast differences in individuals, but concede there are often similarities shared by “most” folks.

The author deals with RESPECT as if it is exclusively a man thing. I believe ALL respect is earned, thus I respect some women and have no respect whatsoever for other women. The same is true for men. While I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, I judge folks by what they do when they are not trying to impress anyone.

This was well written and well thought out, thanks FTC.

Wrong .... stunningly ignorant

Whether you believe in God or Evolution, the fact remains that Nature doesn't give a shit. The natural world is a ruthless, uncaring world that knows only one reality: page 2

When you are talking about nature you are talking about evolution

This story is noteworthy in a way the writer probably didn't intend it to be. Halfway down the first page, I began noting the ridiculous statements.

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"She could never remember the names of men."

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That's a ham-fisted way of painting her as a man-hater. Surely you can do better than that? I mean, unless you're trying to appeal to the single-digit IQ knuckledraggers. In that case, well played.

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"Any woman who says she wants to 'have kids' subconsciously believes that the father is an optional extra she can replace if she feels like it."

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Evidence required. Where's the unbiased and scientifically-sound research to back up this statement? Point me to the journal where this study was published. Because if you're going to make definitive judgements about the 4 billion people who happen to be women, you'd damn well better back that shit up with evidence. Otherwise, on what authority do you presume to spell out the motive of 4 billion people from different cultures, on different continents, and with different life experiences, simply because they happen to have the XX chromosome in common? And what about the men who might also say they "want kids"? Do THEY also subconsciously believe that the mother is an optional extra? Until you can back your statement up, it's worthless. As I'm not a narcissist, I can't comprehend the arrogance you must possess to make a blanket claim about 4 billion people across the globe who you will never meet, and who are from a demographic you don't belong to. It paints you as an ignoramus who believes in his own nonexistent superior intellect.

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"If you want to have a relationship with a woman, you will first have to accept that you are entering a war zone--and that you need to be a warrior."

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Bwahahahahaha!! I can't even take this one seriously. It just made me start laughing. Say what? A war zone? Bwahahahahaha!!

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"We all know that a woman's love comes with strings attached, right?"

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And a man's love doesn't?

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"And when a man cannot attract a woman, what does he typically do? He gives his love to his hobbies!"

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Any human being, male or female, and whether in a fulfilling relationship or not, should make time for hobbies. Hobbies are a component of any healthy individual's life.

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"A man isn't born to need love."

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Keep telling yourself that and maybe one day you'll believe it. Or maybe just swallow your intellectual hubris and accept that every human being needs love especially at low points in life.

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"It instructs us men to love our women because it knows that women are inherently difficult to love."

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If you're going to use the Bible, quote it properly. Absolutely nowhere in the Bible does it EVER state that women are "inherently difficult to love." This is another example of narcissism. You misquote the Holy Book, twist it to fit your narrative, and are essentially putting words in God's own mouth. Think about that. Freddie the Camel, your hubris is astounding. The Bible never ever said that women are "inherently difficult to love." Having set that record straight, let's follow your thread for a minute. If the reason men are instructed to love women is because women are inherently difficult to love, then it holds true that the reason women are instructed to respect men is because men are inherently difficult to respect. You can't wriggle out of that one by disingenuously saying that women simply "find it difficult" to respect men because they need to work at "shedding their belief of being superior." In that case, men similarly find it difficult to love women because they need to work at shedding their inherent belief that women are unworthy of it. Until you start being intellectually honest, nobody with half a brain will buy the shit you're trying to sell.

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"How many of you here regard yourselves as perfect just as you are?"

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No human is perfect, male or female. If any individual honestly thinks they're perfect, it's a symptom of a mental disorder. It is not a sign of femininity. It's a pity you need to be told this.

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"Let her talk out her objections and when she's done, give her a big smile, say "Nice try" and go do what you want anyway. What's she going to do, barricade the door?"

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I wouldn't barricade the door. I also wouldn't be there when he came home. It's not that a guy can't do whatever or go wherever he likes. He can. However, his partner shouldn't accept condescending treatment. If anyone I'm in a relationship with patronizes me in the way that passage outlines, it's over. No fights, no further questions.

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The whole Jessie and Carl attraction thing is trash. It shows you have no insight into the mind of a woman (or indeed a man) who's gone through that level of physical and sexual abuse. You'd have been better off following that age-old advice to write what you know.

I gave this story 2 stars because I'm in a good mood.

I agree with the dialogue in the story about respect. As I was reading the story, though, especially near the end, I thought of one of my Father’s sayings: “Never underestimate the power of a woman.”

I have problems with this, then on reflection i think maybe i dont. Its very well written. I need to think upon the idea's more and that in itself makes it worth the read. 5 stars !

well written, but I'm not convinced this won't all end in disaster for Milo. Jessie is very broken and perhaps won't be able to help herself from straying if she doesn't get her way. That being said, ignore the idiots who try to pick apart every word but have never tried to write a story themselves. Thanks for a very good effort!

Interesting story. Not sure I really like or respect most of the Manosphere bunch. I got the feeling most of them were just the counterpoint of a feminist conference. Glad Milo and Jessie worked out their issues.

I gave this story 5 stars. I also found reading this story to be very uncomfortable at times, because it addresses a number of topics that I've had issues with in my life. I liked that how you used the supporting characters to present opposing views, and how no single supporting character had all the answers for the MC. Ultimately, a person has to make their own decision.

Thanks! Please keep writing.

richard

The anon below me, pretty much laid it out far, far better than any of us could, even combined.

Dont take this wrong or do, it doesnt matter, but you seem to see men and woman the way Republicans finally and freely see and feel about the sexes and its totally wrong, on every level. This read like it was written by the average fragile south of the M/D male who is completely clueless to the realities of which he attempts to write.

You wrote this for the average easily impressed reader who has little desire to actually dig into the "facts" of what you put out for our consumption.

A lot of pages that really did nothing but ruin whatever reputation you may have had.

Did the author ever tell us what the AWM tattoo on her wrist meant?

It's the only one she's gotten since she's been with Milo and she kisses it for good luck but, I'm still wondering what it means and why it's so important to her?

Should have stuck with your original idea and broke it into chapters. Too much to absorb in one sitting. I’m guessing most commenters didn’t read more than 4 pages. An interesting and rather unique look at relationships between men and women

I tried to like this. I really did.

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But I never warmed up to Jessie, and I couldn’t stand milquetoast Milo.

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Sigh. This is a perfect example of a 3 *** effort —- average entertainment.

Definitely generated some commentary! LOL! I enjoyed the story, and you gave me some things to think about. 5*

Want to become an incel? This is the manual. Tired of being around women, hate sex? This story tells you how to rid yourself of the pesky critters and live your life as a sexless "manly" man. Want to cause women to run away screaming when you open your mouth? This is the program.

The views expressed by the presenters are basically what you hear out of men who either won't or can't hold an LTR together and need someone other than themselves to blame their failed relationships on. They're there merely to serve as a drama/plot device, to get Milo and Jessie thinking about what they really want.

And within the story as it unfolds, everything they say turns out to be wrong. Jessie's choice of Milo the safe, dependable provider over the Carl the macho alpha male is the exact opposite of what they predict a woman will do, and Milo's choice of the "beta male" option is the opposite of what they say a man should do.

I use the word 'codswallop' a lot when reading your stories, but I do find them interesting, thoughtful, and fun. I doubt that you will ever find yourself at the top of my reading list, but I will always make a point of looking for your stories. Thank you.

Interesting - I shouldn't have read that last anonymous comment. But I get the feeling our heroes are going to see through the colored pill games and maybe, just maybe, start treating each other with a little respect.

This was an amazing read, I simply love the creative mind of this author. And in the spirit of the glass is 1/2 full and not 1/2 empty. If he married a stripper at least it’s better than marrying a ho. But the similar negative psychological profile and hard grit survivors remorse is still the same. It’s not easy to transition suddenly from that life into one of suburban bliss.

Very good. Brilliant insights and observations. An easy 5 stars.

Glad to see the red pill finally make its way here. The comments section is exactly as expected.

Kind of juvenile and stunted. Who finds their identity and their values in a book, or at a conference? Influences, information, ideas, sure. But your character and your values come from inside you, influenced by your intellect and experience, but processed and formed by your soul. I didn't make that up. "Know Thyself" is not a suggestion or an option, its a simple statement of truth and reality.

Milo and Jessie are caricatures of people who are so detached from their souls that they don't know who they are, nor how to find themselves. Its pathetic. And I don't know how to help them. I think maybe its not possible, like trying to shit for somebody else who is constipated. Some problems you just kind of have to figure out on your own, to the best of your ability, and accept that. Part of Knowing Thyself is being willing to accept who and what that is, and respect it. God really doesn't make any junk. All of Jessie's and Milo's failures and inadequacies are self inflicted. So maybe now they will grow up and become who they are, and stay happily married with love and respect. The story doesn't really indicate if that has happened, or will happen.

Would we be that surprised to find out that when Jessie fails to get pregnant after several months, she decides to give Carl a shot? Would we be that surprised to find that Milo eventually reverts to the wuss he was and begs Jessie to just stay his wife even after he learns she has returned to being another man's woman? Values and substance gleaned from some books and conferences tend to have short half lives, kind of like fads.

This was the beginning of an interesting story. I hope you or someone will someday complete it. Thanks for the effort.

TL;DR: Pretty darn good. The whole topic of RP is a controversial one that not many authors would touch let alone cover with the depth presented here. It's worth noting that even though there was a significant discussion of different Manosphere topics, actual implementation of the philosophy by any of the characters (beyond discussion) was nil.

The thing that I'm missing here is that the crisis is wrapped up waaaay too neatly. After Milo has been presented in a manner for the bulk of the story, he's suddenly ... not. We're told, not shown that he's somehow, uh, different? Jessie was in tears, and then there's suddenly Milo walking through a door and he's "changed"? In less than one evening, Jessie has recognized that Milo is now another man? It's funny because just hours earlier Milo was clearly having a crisis of faith, questioning his whole marriage and how he sees his wife, with the clear context being he does not believe he measures up. In fact, not a single person in the story thinks that Milo measures up. So, this drastic turn is a whiplash moment that really seems out of place in a story that otherwise took its time to play its hand. And even though the ending is left open and somewhat ambiguous, it's still not enough to address the "maybe Milo isn't really all that" that the rest of the story showed us.

Now, one cannot have such a heady topic and not bring out the haters. And frankly, they're *hilarious*, especially the Anon rant by the wymynyst whose delicate sensibilities have been, shall we say, ruffled? I think a fainting couch is needed because some one has been afflicted with the vapors.

Let me pick a few choice points from their rant that counter the RP philosophy, just cause I feel that it's too funny not to.

> "Any woman who says she wants to 'have kids' subconsciously believes that the father is an optional extra she can replace if she feels like it." Evidence required. Where's the unbiased and scientifically-sound research to back up this statement? Point me to the journal where this study was published

How about you point yourself to the current divorce rates in the Western world and figure out for yourself that since the 1970s, that women have definitely felt that "fathers" are replaceable. Google "percent of divorce initiated by women"? I'll help you with the math: 70%. While you apparently feel hyperbolically and breathlessly controlled by the partriarchy, the numbers don't lie. Women leave men more than 2:1 and thus, it's clear that they feel that either fathers are replaceable or that these women could be better fathers than the actual fathers.

>"If you want to have a relationship with a woman, you will first have to accept that you are entering a war zone--and that you need to be a warrior." Bwahahahahaha!! I can't even take this one seriously.

While you're on Google, move those perpetually-offended fingers to type "dating as a war-zone". You won't have to tell me the number of hits that come up, I'll save you the work so you don't have to get up from your fainting couch. 29.9 *million*. So, yes. You may think it's "bwahahaha" worthy, but it seems to be quite the common expression. After all this, I doubt too many take you seriously, either. So, it's mutual.

>"It instructs us men to love our women because it knows that women are inherently difficult to love." If you're going to use the Bible, quote it properly. Absolutely nowhere in the Bible does it EVER state that women are "inherently difficult to love."

Ummm, absolutely nowhere in the story does the author make the claim that the Bible does specifically say that. This is called "interpretation" and authors sometimes use it to evince meaning from text that they, themselves, did not write.

Here's my interpretation. This story somehow broke some people, some very fragile people, and that alone is the sign of some good writing.

I always liked your take on male/fem dynamic since "yonder". This is a good story, just bringing redpillers to serious consideration somehow makes me shrug a bit

To the devil incarnate who responded to my comment: Who invited you into this conversation? My comment was directed solely at the writer. I never said your input was wanted.

It's nice of you to offer to lend me your fainting couch, but no thanks. You'd better hold onto it because you're about to need it. Don't forget your emotional support blow-up doll. After all, it's you who got so butthurt by facts that you couldn't help but stick your nose into a conversation you weren't invited to join. I won't waste too much time on you since it's clear that your ignorance is largely willful, but here are some things you need to get through your head.

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I'm under no obligation to provide evidence of anything, because I haven't made any claims. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. In this case, that person happens to be the writer. Got that? Are you with me so far? Good, I'll continue. Anyone who makes any pejorative generalization about half the world's population needs to back up the claim THEY made. Period.

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As for divorce rates over the last few decades, I get the feeling you're patting yourself on the back for spitting out that well-worn statistic. Unfortunately for you, you didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. Moreover, that statistic is irrelevant to this discussion (which, again, nobody invited you to join). It's not enough to cite the alleged percentage of divorces initiated by women and then ascribe a reason to it because that reason fits what you already choose to believe. That's called confirmation bias. Look up the term since you're such a big fan of Google. The main reasons women cite for filing for divorce are: Finances, Emotional Distance, Infidelity, Domestic Abuse, Lack of Sex, and Addiction. None of these are directly to do with the parenting skills of the husband in question. It certainly has nothing to do with the women allegedly thinking they can "be better fathers than the fathers themselves." That claim is baseless and exceedingly stupid. When looking at the CAUSE of the majority of divorces, the children are beside the point, a fact which renders your argument invalid and your statistic irrelevant. Replacement of biological fathers is not the reason women initiate divorces. Do you understand? Did I use too many big words for you? If so, crawl back on that fainting couch of yours, clutch your blow-up doll tightly, and suck your thumb. There, there. It'll be okay.

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As for telling me to Google "dating as a war zone", no. I will not Google it, nor will I do anything else that you tell me. It may break your heart to hear this, but I don't take orders from you. I also don't make a habit of wasting my time looking up nonsensical things. If you adopt the same policy, you might find the time to look up things that'll actually supply you with the education you obviously lack. FYI, the number of results that a phrase returns on a search engine is no indication of the veracity of the phrase. For example, "flat earth" gets way more than 30 million hits, but the notion of a flat earth is still trash. Just like it's trash to say that real love is anything like a war zone. The argument you make here is as irrelevant as your first one.

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Ummm, if someone is putting an interpretation forward, they should be clear on that. There's no room for ambiguity. One can't say "the Bible instructs men to love women because it knows women are inherently difficult to love" then hide behind the flimsy excuse of it only being interpretation when they get called out. I'm not buying your bullshit any more than I bought his. If it really was only the writer's interpretation of the text, he should have said something like, "The Bible instructs men to love women. I think that might be because women are inherently difficult to love." This is not what the writer did. What he did was explicitly state that the Bible "knows" that women are inherently difficult to love. This statement is false by every measure. The writer has neither the authority to tell people what the Bible "knows", nor to supply the Bible's rationale for any of its instructions. What he did was a deliberate and dishonest twisting of Scripture to suit a particular narrative. You've got to be stupid or a liar (or both) to not see that. Then again, lies are the only thing to expect from the devil incarnate. Great job living up to your username, by the way.

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I stand by every one of my initial points to the writer. Your asinine response (which, again, I didn't ask for) hasn't changed my mind on anything. I won't engage with you after this, because your irrationality and baseless conclusions make it too easy to discredit you. Talking to you is like kicking a dog after clubbing baby seals.

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As to the writing, there's nothing wrong with the writer's storytelling, grammar, or technical ability. However, there's a lot wrong with his messaging and thought processes. But hey, it's him who has to live with himself, not me. And thank God for that.

Very good story. A few flaws and some areas I felt you could have fleshed out a bit more but very good nonetheless. Would love to see you give this a rewrite in a year or so. Great plot devise and loved your use if other characters to represent various viewpoints the MC struggled with.

Good story but controversial, not everyone’s cup of tea , as evidenced by some of the comments ! Take for instance the anon ( 1 day ago ) that wrote the counterpoints on some of your co-characters opinions , his attempts to pick apart your characters viewpoints so vehemently only proves how well you write , present your subject matter and how well you bring depth to your characters makes your readers feel a little passionate and moved , the ones who comment generally seem to depict this passion in their responses , stirred enough , both positively and negatively , to take the time to express themselves , I’m no exception. To me the negative comments that inspired their comments is nearly as rewarding as the praise from the positive comments ! The controversy you provoked is controversy you inspired by excellent writing and your thought provoking ideas ! You wrote a short story of fiction , a make-believe brain child , never claiming to have quoted actual data and statistics ! Isn’t that what they call poetic license ? Also you never claimed to be expressing your own ideals , opinions or experiences vicariously through your characters and/or storylines . I guess one of the fallbacks to reaching a certain level of fame by your readers is to become somewhat stereotyped . I mean your not Elvis with blue suede shoes becoming a virtual prisoner of your own fame , but you have became somewhat known by your pen name recognition , and familiarity breeds contempt ! Five supernova stars from me !!!

LOL, Anon. OK, you tired old bat. Who asked me to post? You did. You posted publicly, so I'm happy to shove each ridiculous, misandrist point back into your face. You want a private convo with the author? See the button that says "Send Private Feedback"? Yeah. What do you think that's for?

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>Ummm, if someone is putting an interpretation forward, they should be clear on that.

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You just read an 8 PAGE story that was ENITRELY an interpretation of the premise of how difficult it is for a man to love a woman, to the point that many men have given up trying. And you somehow missed it because the author didn't hold your hand and tell you that "This is my interpretation..."? The whole thing just flew right over your head? That's the level of your "critique"? The author proverbially hit you over the head with that exact premise and somehow, you're confused about this? That's all I need to point out.

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Well, you're consistent. You've just admitted that you're just as ignorant and oblivious in your ponderous, confused response to me as you were in your original brain-dead harangue. Please, by all means, keep talking yourself in circles. For you, facts are "alleged'. You don't rebut anything, just cluck "Imma not do anything a m-a-a-a-a-n tells me to do". You just make my arguments for me. You are impossible to love, but you are easy to laugh at.

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You're a clown. You need a red squeaky nose and some floppy shoes and then you can graduate from Clown School. Your writing here may be your capstone thesis. You're just hilarious and the most fun I've had today. Well, I'll give you the last word. Ready? 3, 2, 1 ... Hate Men! Go!

A five star for demonstrating what NOT to do.

The good: An outstanding story about female hypergamy, sociopathy, male infatuation and a terribly-dysfunctional pair of immature adults. She doesn't love him, and he's actually infatuated with her physical attributes and wants to white-knight her. An object lesson in when to run the heck away. And I've seen this play out in real life with a friend who finally came to his senses before marriage.

Sexually desiring an attractive female is a natural masculine reaction. Acting on it while ignoring other factors is why we have the ages-old admonition "NEVER stick your dick in crazy." It's easy to confuse attraction and infatuation with a loving relationship that might endure. In this story, Jessie is the abuser, and Milo is her victim. And oh, my, the idea of Jessie ever rearing kids is terrifying.

Jessie has the morals of an alley cat and the mindset of an "I WANT! I WANT!" spoiled child. To even CONSIDER having extramarital sex with the expressed intent of having her former abuser's baby and then passing it off as her husband's is sociopathy and narcissism at a breathtaking level. While hardly an example of all women, Jessie demonstrated exactly what the "manosphere" people were trying to say. And the husband OVERLOOKS this? His stupid is limitless, and they really deserve each other.

Honestly, how does ANY man NOT walk away after Jessie's confession? She had her IUD removed specifically to have another man's baby and then deceive her husband. That she didn't go through with it is actually meaningless -- she's so fucked up mentally, emotionally and morally that after YEARS of exploiting Milo she still WANTED to, and very nearly did. And she would have, with premeditation, lived a lie with the man she was married to and NOW falsely claims to "love." As REO Speedwagon wrote, "That ain't 'love.' At least it doesn't feel like 'love' to me."

Jessie has a pathology on a cosmic level. It's one thing to have a drunken mistake that you later hide to preserve a marriage. But it's another to go into such a monstrous deception with your eyes wide open and malice aforethought, planning to deceive your husband, the man who although you don't love, you still made a promise to. Her word meant nothing, and there's no reason to believe it ever will.

Yes, she was abused. Okay, that's a reason to not HATE her. But it's insane folly for Milo to REMAIN with her if she's that willing to deceive him. Again, that she didn't go through with it is not enough -- she actually took all but one of the steps necessary to perpetrate this. If she had researched a poison with the intent of killing her husband, actually bought the poison, mixed it into his food, and only at the last minute knocked him away from the table to stop him from taking the first bite, should he say "Awww, that's okay honey, you stopped me just before I took a bite."?? Would he sleep soundly after that? Would anyone?

It's often said that trust is one of the pillars of a relationship. Without it, the husband is sticking around for sex (which he can get elsewhere), because of children (not applicable here), or because his own mind is so messed up that he lets infatuation rule his good sense as if he's 14 years old and crushing on a cute 9th-grader.

Far from being a happy ending, Milo's willingness to stay with his abuser is an object lesson in what NOT to do.

Great lesson, thank you.

OK, I'm going to give this a 5, since it explored a considerable number of different angles with some depth. Freddie has become one of the more interesting writers in LW, though at least for me, he didn't start out that way. This lengthy effort has much in common with his "To Love, Honour...And Obey" (the second part of his "FS" alt). Frankly, I don't agree with all this "war between the sexes" stuff. My opinion has always been that men and women are more alike than unalike. There are people with character, and people without. But given that this is fiction, I'll go along to get along here, and suggest that the lesson at story's end appears to be that the less needy one is, the more attractive one is. And it's hard to argue with that, regardless of gender. Meanwhile, the thoughtful comments from servant111 deserve commentary. He may be correct in his diagnosis, but maybe not. Jessie certainly had a very bad upbringing, but I'm not as certain as he is that she is a sociopath. She may just simply be damaged goods. It appears from the story arc that Sir Camel holds out the possibility that she is capable of change. Legio_Patria_Nostra is almost always sound, and he praised this story to the skies. And that the hard-to-please Harry in VA was pleased by this should also tell you something. And finally, I have to correct iammweasel - the author can hardly be an American southerner when it's so obvious he's British.

QuickMagazine

More truth in this story than fiction. Went through this cycle a few times before I learned.

Very good story that is in a higher league than many. Caused me to question my attitudes. Not into long essays & I do not have the literary abilities of the author!

Very good story, very well written. But I bet half your readers were hoping that there would be more description of Mio's half-red pilled talk with Jessie, so they would have further insights into how they should deal with their wife/girlfriend's shit. Seriously, it seems to me that her announcement to Milo that she wanted/had wanted (?) Carl's baby and had taken steps to act on that choice, were a critical point of the marriage and that it is a serious omission to gloss over that. I stillgive the story 5***** but think you really should have addressed that elephant in the room.

Great story. A lot of what was said about women and their tactics was so true, or rings true from personal experience. Man came out of it in reasonably good shape and his future prospects with his wife working out look good. 5 stars

Great story Freddie enjoyed it felt more like real life than fiction with all the different angles the story flowed and came to a natural conclusion well written great story 5+ for me

Fascinating story. Something different. Thanks

Very well written, and if the value of fiction is the extent to which it generates a debate regarding the "truth" it reveals about the human condition, then certainly a "5" is warranted. Then again, this is Loving Wives, so what the fuck do I know.

Freddie, you wrote a real gem. This could easily be published in a short story collection. Your characters were totally real, and the story was totally plausible. Bravo, and thanks for writing!

Nice, very nice. Unexpected ending but brilliant.

I would like to have seen this story taken out 5 or 10 years... I just don't see how this relationship will survive over time unless both do some serious work on themselves and the relationship... having a baby ain't gonna fix it... but, there is potential if there is sincere effort on the part of both... all the messiness does make the story ring true.

A really really well written story. One may agree or disagree with the contents, but the quality is outstanding. As usual with this author, he gives us the benefit of characters who not only are real and flawed, but also honestly asses the flaws.

My main complaint is that contrary to the advice, she still did not **respect** Milo at the end, at least not that I as observer would be convinced. Love without respect is not good enough to last. Not sure if it was there and I just missed the subtle hints, or deliberately missing by the author.

Loved your story, in fact I've enjoyed al your stories I read so far.

4 stars

"Yet here Jessie was, maybe pregnant by a moderately good-looking man with a moderately good income and living in a moderately good neighbourhood. And what was even more surprising: she was happy with that."

No hottie is going to be happy with a moderately-good anything until she's past the childbearing years, losing her looks, and cosmetic enhancements are impractical/impossible.

I agree with the Anon who wrote "A five star for demonstrating what NOT to do."

Brilliant writing about a narcissistic female sociopath. I think many woman have tendencies toward hypergamy. As many men have tendencies toward promiscuity.

The key is that a mature adult keeps base impulses in check. As this whack-job female did not. Two years of "I want a baby" without actively working toward it was the red flag lit by a 10,000 watt spotlight.

The narcissistic sociopathy was that she almost tried to have another guy's baby and STILL was not honest enough to walk away from the "rescuer" she never loved at all.

A marriage made in hell, which will NOT improve over time.

I think this story belongs in the Erotic Horror section. Brilliant but horrifying.

Perhaps the BTB brigade should reconsider what Harry says "Then fuck my disapproval! Fuck everyone's! It's your marriage and your choice. Do whatever you believe to be right and let the chips fall where they may."

And also remember it's fiction. :)

At first I expected a marital train wreck. How wrong I was. This yarn explores masculinity in male/ female relationships in a thoughtful and well written plot. 5 stars and thanks for sharing.

'I'm serious, "Gary",' he said. 'I've been here two days now and I've heard a lot about how to attract a woman and seduce a woman and keep a woman's interest. But not one man has spoken for five minutes on how to love a woman. Is no-one interested in that? Or is Love itself a "Blue Pill construct" and I'm a beta-simp for even asking the question?'

===> This was the turning point in this story. At first it was hard to find the plot with all the "philosophical" trappings of purported feminism (early on) and the the Red Pill schlock that read like stumbling into an Incel Anonymous meeting or some type of LW sub reddit on QAnon. People are more complex than the assertions at the conference.

The one message that holds true is that if you place your value based on the approval of your wife or alternately the approval of your male friends (see Harry's statement) at the end then you have (potentially) emasculated yourself. You can love your wife and family, but who you are as a person should be something more. You can consciously make sacrifices but who you are in terms of self respect, preserving your honor, how you treat others, your beliefs, your principles, your interests, and your personality should not be wholly wrapped up in your romantic relationships. Your romantic relationships are an important part of your life but should not define you. That is worthwhile advice. But so much of the rest was such silly pablum that it left me wondering if this was a parody.

Personally after Jessie's confession, would have taken a long hard look before chaining myself to a woman, who only recently proclaims to love me, via getting her pregnant, after she told me she wanted to be impregnated by another man. Normally the answer would be a hard no and instant divorce, but Milo is a bit of an emotional weak noodle and Jessie clearly has mental issues. The reveal about her miscarriage with Carl's baby was important. So that was certainly a marital minefield and honestly, it is hard to imagine after just 3 years, that is rational to put up with the mess of addressing all the problems they both bring to the marriage (especially Jessie). Not to mention what Jessie's little voice will tell in 5 to 10 years. Supposedly Jack Tarrant's lessons will help Milo in the future but good luck with that.

Again people are far more complicated. Diverting and it was good to see Milo stand up to Gary and Harry and also Jessie, but the plot wa obfuscated by a lot of laughable rhetoric passed off as Red Pill wisdom. Honestly the talk between Milo and the curly haired receptionist who got lambasted by Gary on day 1 and also his stern discussion with Harry at the end were the high points, along with his takedown of Gary the sleaze.

On a separate note: how was Jessie demonstrating hypergamy by wanting Carl's child? Carl was much lower in terms of "status" than Milo. Great,.he is a manager of a stripper club with a messed up childhood and a history of being a wife / girlfriend beater. Hypergamy in modern world is about looking for someone usually of higher status or fitness. She thought Carl's child would raise hell and be tough to raise and she had guilt about the miscarriage with his child. Hypogamy is about screwing anything with two legs and a vagina or penis, depending on sexual orientation.