All Comments on 'Hardheads: Frank & Mary Revisited'

Your ending is just as likely as JPB's. Maybe even more so.

Boyd

I really appreciate your work to fix some of the stories that dont make sense on this site. My only problem is that you dont write fast enough. There are hundreds of weird stories on lit that dont make a hell of a lot of sense so get cracking :)

Mary cheated and knew Frank suspected it and that he would not take her back. Her offer of giving Frank his freedom was an affront....nothing more than a red herring. Frank already had his freedom...the moment she cheated...and she knew it was at the exact moment Tim's cock penetrated her. I'm glad he didn't fall for those crocodile tears.

"I want you to tell her that she's got to prove to me she didn't cheat while she was running around with those guys."

... but it is impossible to prove a negative.

Had similar experiences when dating both by me and to me.Blaming someone else then taking off when you want out of a relationship is done every day

not the way it should of gone. In the end the hsuband looks like a total PUSSY and wimp. Jesus what a pathetic loser.......................................

His wife leaves him... dates otyher men... fucks other men ...then turns his family against him ... then she divorces him.... and all this time the husband thinks she STILL loves him? ..........................

I dont get it. In his conversation with his parents the husband says that nto Love as I know it... yet at the final scene at the bar he says to his wife "I know you still love me....???"

Think about it..... after she gets caught by Frank face fucking the old boyfirend and Frank ripes her a new one... she STILL goes home with the old boyfriend and fucks him.... THEN the next day she comes back to try to lie/convince Frank nothing happened. This ending ONLY makes sense if in the story Frank had caught/ discovered Mary was cheating AFTER the fact... but that is NOT what happened!!!! . Then after all this he says I still you Mary... WTF?

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The ending is Not good. It is a LITTLE better than JPB but Not much. -- at least Frank gets to clear his name with his family. But he does come off as a total LOSER. What price is Mary paying? she OBVIOUSLY doesnt think cheating or leaving Frank is a big deal!!!!

alienation of affection on Tim, make it stick. She admitted being a slut and whore, let him have a pocket recorder with all of this recorded, play it to all of ther fmaily and to his. Let the lying, cheating, adulterous slut live with her actions. She wasnt mentally ill, she was a lying conniving cheating slut looking for an excuse. Shes right she wasnt worthy of him, but she owes him five wasted years.

i have to agree with average joe there are a lot of stories on thissite that need fixing in your way/full speed ahead and DAMN the wannabe macho shits the call the word Wimp when i think they are the only wimps who signoff as ANONYMOUS

i have to agree with average joe there are a lot of stories on thissite that need fixing in your way/full speed ahead and DAMN the wannabe macho shits the call the word Wimp when i think they are the only wimps who signoff as ANONYMOUS

At least the slut had the honesty to kiss him off to his face, and take responsibility for her actions. I'll bet Tim was waiting out in the car for her.

50% for the story, but less 50% for unbelievable. I can't buy that counseling changed this manipulative, radical, abusive, selfish, immature, self-centered liar that fast. Sorry, I couldn't buy it, I couldn't buy her guilt, especially when she's suggesting a divorce.

Well done, author. I wish you could fix a few more of JPB's stories like; "Carymn's Baby" and etc.... Keep up the good work and thanks for your efforts.

The writing was fine, but I thought the whole "Hardheads" concept was that each spouse was stubornly set on a course of thinking which kept them from reconciling. The point was not to find a way to break them up, but to have them overcome their recalcitrance to find one another again.

I stopped reading after this little gem: "I want you to tell her that she's got to prove to me she didn't cheat while she was running around with those guys."

<P>

In other words, Frank wants Mary to prove a negative. It can't be done. You might as well ask someone to prove that they're innocent without asking what they're innocent of.

<P>

This isn't a better story than JPB's original and it's nothing to write home to Mom about. A fifty for your effort and I thank you.

I guess wimps come in all colors. What kind of dumb fuck is this guy?

Some of the comments made here about Frank demanding his wife PROVE a negative as being "ureasonable" are well Moronic. It would figure bozos like Alvaron52 would be outraged by THAT comment and NOT the wife's cheating. This is NOT a case in LOGIC and it is NOT a case of Law... Keep in mind the Facts. FRANK did not catch or discover MARY fucked around AFTER the fact. MARY was caught by FRANK and others in deep kisses with.........

1) not just ANY guy.....................

2) her ex-boyfriend...........................

3) was ripped a new one by FRANK in public..............

4) thought so little of frank she went home with the exboyfriend TIM ...............................

5) fucked TIM for several hours.......................

6) then tried to convince Frank she did nothing wrong.

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Given all that it was more than reasonable for FRANK to demand PROOF of a negative

Great story. I think that people should realize that this was all about her coming to the realization of just how badly she treated her husband. That she really doesn't want to hurt the one person that actually LOVED her more than anyone other than her own parents. She realized that she didn't want to be married anymore, but she ALSO DIDN'T want to hurt him anymore, so that's why she told him to file for the divorce.. ALSO I agree with "hersch" that it is so wimpy to "RIP an author a new asshole" and NOT leave your name, HEHHEH.. Keep up the GOOD writings.......

Paul

I've always liked your retelling efforts - it has seemed to me that the stories you ended or rewrote endings for in the past were ones which were well-written and engaging yet left me just a little dissatisfied. I had not considered this story fully (I mainly read it as a parable of how bullheadedness can ruin a marriage) until I read your retake. In the end, I agree with your version more than I do JPB's - before your story came out, I had given the wife the benefit of the doubt, chalking up her extreme reactions to anger and foolishness. But in retrospect, the whole chain of events, from the screaming accusations to the threat of restraining order to the adulterous dalliances (with or without intercourse, 'dirty dancing' with members of the opposite sex is adulterous - check the husband's reaction) makes no sense unless the wife was in fact siezing the opportunity to make a lapse on the husband's part into a casus belli for something. The only question is given her reaction to his accusations, what was she trying to accomplish? I agree that "pulling his chain" doesn't work, since any woman worth her salt as a manipulator would have ensured that witnesses reported her activities to him. But if she was running away from the marriage, why try to come back? Was she trying to return to married life because she missed the security? Was it some game she was playing? Her explanations don't really make sense, but it was interesting and refershing to have a woman in her position realize how hopeless it was and make for a clean break. I also appreciated that his parents, once they understood they were being used as pawns in her struggle to do whatever it is, backed out of the picture while letting her know what she would have to do to reconcile.

As a husband, it's hard for me to imagine myself on the road to reconciliation after being threatened with a restraining order. IMHO, once a spouse resorts to threats of law enforcement in a marital dispute, chances of simple reconciliation have pretty much flown out the window. It's entirely possible that she could have gotten what she wanted by following her husband home when he found her with the old boyfriend - that's clearly the straw that broke the camel's back for him, he was sure she was past the line and into adultery. And I agree that you make a compelling case for it. Others have criticized his insistence that she prove a negative - prove that she has been faithful - correctly noting that this is a logical impossibility. You make it clear that he had a plan, which involved her getting the men to at least talk to him about what happened. Whether or not she could prove anything logically, he's really saying, "work hard to convince me you didn't do that." She never makes a serious attempt, and he is later vindicated in his knowledge of his wife. He KNEW, as most husbands would know, when his wife is flirting and when she is allowing herself to be seduced.

<p>In JPB's version they were both considered hardheaded because accourding to JPB the wife wouldn't forgive the husband when she thought he was cheating and the Husband wouldn't forgive the wife after he proved he wasn't and was hurt she thought he could cheat</P>

<p>But in the World of JPB, or a previous president, little things like making out with people your not married too, giving out blowjobs to people your not married to, or even getting naked and rubbing yourself on someone else who's not your spouse isn't considered cheating, or so he'd have you believe. JPB thinks cheating is only cheating when you <i>intend</i> to inflict pain on the other person. Thats why I hated his version of the story. In <i>his</i> version, the husband did not do anything wrong. Well except get drunk. His friends played a joke on him. He was a victim across the board. But in his wife's case she was dirty dancing, dating, and publicly making out with other men. Then to top it off all of the husband's family turned against him to make it seem like it was all his fault and he was the horrible person for not quickly forgiving and fogetting to take his wife back, while not only was he innocent the wife was getting as close to cheating as she could get without crossing that very extremely fine line.</p>

<p>You did address some issues that I saw in the story: Why would someone family take one side without finding out what the other side was? Why didn't he stand up to his family? Why didn't he force the issue more about how his wife was publicly making out with former boyfriends just to rub his nose in it? Why did he pretend like it was no big deal? Why is <i>he</i> a hardhead when he never did anything, but the wife did?</p>

<p>But that being said, it still seemed to waffer for me. I mean when someone's parents pretty much sell you out for a wife that is cheating on you, I can't see a rational converstation taking place. I mean your wife is out making out with other men, uses your supposed cheating as an excuse to get even, you make her see you weren't cheating, and then your whole family suddenly takes her side, regardless of what she's done, and make try to make you feel like slime in an arguement where you were the hurt and innocent party. I can't see him just going "Oh well you were duped too" in the conversation with his parents and going on. Not after yet one more person(s) was convicting him without a trial. I can see him telling them what happened and leaving to cool off but not letting it all blow over so fast.. I really didn't see him as that strong in the story.</p>

<p>JPB's story was not about two hardheaded people it was about one victim and one hardheaded person who later turned maniplative to get what she wanted. Yours just clarified how maniplative she was, not not so much a happier ending for me. But I liked that you tried to make it happier</p>

-Risq

<p>You said:</p>

<p>Quote:"I want you to tell her that she's got to prove to me she didn't cheat while she was running around with those guys."</p>

<p><i>In other words, Frank wants Mary to prove a negative. It can't be done. You might as well ask someone to prove that they're innocent without asking what they're innocent of.</i></p>

<p>The point was this, as you said you <i>can't</i> prove that, but what he wanted was her to make the <i><b>attempt</b></i> at it. She was willing to screw up their marriage to get even. She was willing to stalk him. He she was even willing to turn his family against him. What he wanted was for her to work at bettering herself (like when he suggested she seek counciling) and not just manipulate him and his family into doing what she wanted. You know prove they should stay married for the right reasons.</p>

<p>I suggest that because of this passage</p>

<p><i>I don't know if any of that got back to Mary but I never did hear any more about her boyfriends not getting any from Mary. <b>I don't know if I was more surprised or saddened by that.</b> Either Mary didn't care enough to try to ease my concern or she couldn't get the guys to talk to me.</i></p>

<p>Sorry but it's kinda obvious to me because they didn't get back together you didn't care for the story, and not why they didn't get back together.<p>

<p>Your choice I guess</p>

-Risq

great post Risq...

if you have Hit your wife............. OR thraten to

......... OR have hit her and she filed a restaining order... thats one thing. To have one filed against him while he did NOTHING wrong... while at the same time go out and fuck other men... well its kills the marriage.... for most men..........................................

except for alvaron

There is one point many comments tend to ignore - the kind of relatship Mary and Frank had bevore this turning point. In JPB's story the husband deeply misses her and therefore it can be assumed that they had a good relationship and where indeed just two Hardheads. They will need however a lot of communication to gain a sound basis for their future relationship.

In fdkman262 story the husband doesn't have this deep feelings for his wife - so obviously he wasn't really happy withe the state of their relationship either. Therefore it is right to seperate.

Just one other point that really puts me off in a number of comments in this section of stories: Why do some of you just want to blame everything on one person? Relationships are always about at least two people! No abuse of religion and/or marriage vows can justify this deep lack of humanity. Life isn't just black and white. For example in this story Mary actually goes to the counselling - why should she do so if she is just selfish? No! She needs the counseling to find out her real fealings about the relationship with Frank and that tells us that she isn't such a bitch as some commentators try to paint her.

So please note the emotions in the play and don't jump to conclusions without actually reading the whole storyline. In this story we can read a lot of this emotions by the characters 'between the lines' even if the very end seems a bit rushed.

Unlike most characters in JPB’s stories that I have read, which regardless of the undeniable talent of the author are internally cold and hopeless, even this sad ending version by fdkman does not show an uncaring unloving husband. It shows very well the pain the disillusionment and finally the acceptance of the finality of the relations, even as it’s clear that both sides still have feelings for each other. Speaking of final scenes. As a stand alone, their final meeting at the bar is one of the best in “loving wives” I have ever read! So poignant. So restrained and mature. Just a gem! This kind of warmth, even between two divorcing people, I was never able to find in JPB stories. BTW, that is the reason why I finally could not continue reading anymore stories by this otherwise very talented author.

or the day before, so what's this bullshit about not being able to prove a negative? It's just a stupid saying that means nothing.

Apart from being pregnant, or having a 'rape kit' done, how could she prove she DID fuck Tim?

Positives are just as hard to prove as negatives, often harder.

It's just a silly argument that has nothing whatever to do with the story.

This ending was slightly better than the original because at least this author provided some justification for what eventually happened.

When you are required to prove a negative it is in the essence of the requirement that you prove the negative. But is it exactly the same here?

When the husband asks the wife to prove that she did not sleep with any of the men does he mean that only proving the negative would have sufficed? Let’s look at another example. If you are a suspect of a crime. The police ask you to provide an alibi. Isn’t that kind of a request to prove the negative, meaning a proof that you did not do the crime? Well, it sounds like it, but would only proving the negative be sufficient? How about if you proved that you could not do it because you were with other people and they can testify that you were with them, not at the scene of the crime? That is not exactly like proving a negative. But definitely would have satisfied the husband in this story. Similarly, if there was a proof that the wife was so intoxicated half an hour after the meeting with the husband, that could also have been enough. Any additional company could in fact have been enough. Any proof to being in a public place would have taken her long way towards an alibi type pf a proof.

In legal mathematical and other very narrowly defined contexts, proving the negative (of very specific conditions) may be the only one required. Not so here. This case is much more like an alibi. The husband would not have cared less HOW she proves that she could not have slept with any of the guys, as long as she proves it, while proving the negative is only one way of proving (or disproving something).

Bill and these "friends" were NEVER talked about; they never talked to the wife; but, oh, they have been quite busy observing her dancing and tonguing with several boyfriends in local clubs,,,,,, and the hubby even went with Bill to a place where they hid and just watched!

WTF!

Then a whole bunch of nonsense later and now 6 months have come to pass and she here, "I grant you the divorce; I'm not good enough for you, dear beloved hubby; you need someone better than I... I love you that much to let you go! Goodbye!"

Totally unbelievable dialogues, especially those with the parents, it's mostly complete nonsense. Anyone who thinks this was a good story needs to, I don't know, grow up?

I'm not saying any personally about the author, who seems to be very capable. This story is just idiotic, 'tis all...

You addressed many of the issues which did not make sense in JPB's version. We have a wife of 5 years (not a newlywed) come back after visiting her suddenly seriously ill mother to jump to the worst conclusions about her husband who is obviously waking up from a drunked sleep. The worst case would be that Frank slipped up while drunk except the people at the party were all her friends and couples._______________________________________________

The evidence of a bra and lipstick may explain one or two day's outburst but when she shut him out week after week something is fundamental wrong with the marriage. You provided an ending more consistent with the facts. Why would Mary after being betrayed by the person she supposed loved the most run out and get into a relationship with 4 other men including an old boyfriend? Why did she suddenly want to get him back? Why would she enlist all of these allies to make him take her back? The obvious answer is guilt about her use of a free get out of marriage card. Her friends tell her that it was a prank so she no longer have an excuse to play the field.__________________________

In JPB's version they get back together because Tim the cunthound did not brag about fucking her. Wow! Any idiot knows that if Tim had brag about it he would be cut off from married (no committments) pussy. So Frank the wimp never ask where was she from the time she was with Tim until 6 pm the next day. If she was innocent would she not have tried to contact Frank that night? The other issue you address very well is how his family turned against him since she left their home and would not talk to him at first._________________________________________________

What was missing from the story was (1) who was she fucking during this 6 month period of freedom and (2) more anger and outrage from Frank since she tried to play him for a fool.__________________________________________________

SleeplessinMD

<p>Some of you Anon posters amaze me.</p>

<p>Let's look at something here from both JPB's story and this one</p>

<p>Both of them are called "The Hardheads" because JPB felt that this term should apply to them becase they refuse to reconcile with each other regardless of the situation</p>

<p>But that makes no sense. For them to both be considered hardheads, or stubborn, they have to <i>BOTH</i> be in similar situations, where it makes no sense that they wouldn't forgive each other because it makes no sense that they wouldn't</p>

<p>Look at the husband a minute:</p>

<p>He was missing his wife at the party they were hosting, He got drunk, His Friends played a prank on him, his wife came home and found the prank before he did, she left, he tried everything he could think of to convince her of his innocence, she told him to leave her alone or she would get him locked up. He finally proved his innocent. And what did that earn him?</p>

<p>In short the husband did nothing wrong, before or after him proved his innocence, <i>in the slightest</i> and for that he was punished, ridiculed, and had his family turned on him. And what did he do to deserve that?</p>

<p>Absolutely nothing</p>

<p>Now look at the wife:</P>

<p>When she thought her husband had cheated, what did she do? She started avoiding him. Started dating other men and doing very graphic PDA's (public display's of affection) with these men who <i>weren't</i> her husband. <i>IF</i> she was to belived, she did it to rub his nose in it (whether you believe JPB's version or this one) she did it to hurt her husband very deeply because she was hurt. When she found he was innocent she started stalking him like he did her, except in her case she "HAD" done stuff with other people, multiple other people (from both versions) and now she wanted him to pretend it never happened. When that didn't work she started using his family to put pressure on him to take her back". </P>

<p>So let's see. He never did anything and decided after he caught her that he might not want her back. But in her case, she did do stuff with those other men, and now wanted him to pretend she didn't because because her sole excuse for playing at being a wanton woman was that she was mad at him at the time and at the time that made it alright. But now she knew he never did anything she wanted him back, wanted him to pretend all the PDA's never happened, and was willing to use any means necessary to make it happen. <p>

<p>And the anon poster below suggest that both of them are hardheaded (read stubborn) because they don't readly take each other back? She screws him over using other men to do it, and because of what she did he starts to avoid her and you suggest he is as much to blame as she is? Your kidding right?</p>

KOLKORE said, "If you are a suspect of a crime. The police ask you to provide an alibi. Isn’t that kind of a request to prove the negative, meaning a proof that you did not do the crime?"

<P>

That's called an affirmative defense. It is not required under U.S. law because the burden of proof remains with the accuser. The same principle applies here. I thank my stars that the Founding Fathers were smarter than KOLKORE. Otherwise, our legal system would be seriously screwed up.

<P>

Frank wants proof of her fidelity and such a thing cannot be proved. I suppose if the concept of Big Brother doesn't bother you, then 24/7 video surveillance would constitute proof though I suspect the cure would be worse than the disease.

<P>

Oh, and I just knew that Harry couldn't keep his mouth shut. I'd reply to his tirades if I could figure out what that babbling drool of his meant. Between the typos and the grammatical blunders, Harry's blathering is incomprehensible. Take a happy pill, Harry, and let the rest of human race get on with living.

<P>

It occurs to me that the real hardheads are the commenters in this thread. That includes me so I think I'll shut up and let the rest of the morons babble on and on and on and on.

well I know WhY you are Alvaron53.... that number is your IQ right? Of course it seems like babble ... even RISQ who ripped you a new asshole PUBLICLY can see through you delusional connection to reality........

....................... to argue that it is wrong / pointless to ask the wife to prove a negative shows that you simply cannot read.

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The wife is caught in public by her husband.

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The evidence is provided to PROVE he did NOT cheat

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after that confrontation DOES she come after her husband apologizing and crying ? NO she goes with TIM to fuck him for several hours

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Yet Alvaron53 the new kind of super wimp men stories attatcks the HUSBANDS attitude and never says 1 word about the wifes unjustified cheating

Alvaron is a Moron plain and simple.

a lot of writers have a white female worship,can't do no wrong at all.so rather than piss them off they wimp out.we all know who you're.

At last more reality in like-able lifelike human reactions. So, again you rescued another just plains bobie from the depth of his who cares about respect words.

Thanks Author - more please

Which one is it Alvaron, impossible to prove or unethical to perform?

You do have to choose between your own two responses. The dilemma exists simply because they can’t both be true, that is according to the internal logic of each of Alarcon’s responses. Maybe you SHOULD take that much needed rest after all, good man. Logic could be that way, playing tricks on us and all, even on elementary level. First you argue that I am suggesting something dark and ominous, a la big brother, which of course has nothing to do with what I actually said, but I am not even getting to it here. Then with no doubt or confusion you launched your second (and contradictory to the first) answer, with your own original take on the famous declaration: “Malta –yok!” That unforgettable declaration came from the confused Turkish Captain head of a cruiser who upon failing to locate the Island of Malta returned to headquarters and declared: “Malta - Yok!” (There is no Malta) His (and Alvaron’s) implied logic is simple as can be: If I can not find it, therefore it means that there is no such thing! If Alvaron has not figured out yet how to properly use the concept of proving the negative, therefore the rest of the world (including fictional characters!) can’t do it either. Along with it we find that Alvaron is not clear on a host of other logical concepts. So according to Alvaron, No one can prove that they did not do anything anywhere for any duration of time! Did I read you Alvaron?

So, if it’s impossible why worry about it being a la gig brother etc? Which one would it be? Impossible or unethical? *****

Finally: 1. You did not understand anything of what I said in my original response to you. You mistook it as a comment on the legal status of the characters in the story, which is a total nonsense. *****

2. You still have not demonstrated that you comprehend what proving the negative means. To use your language, I guess countless detective agencies police detectives and regular couples could thank their stars that you indeed are as clueless as you seem to be. Arguing against the most intuitive and common practice, namely tracing your own activities, providing details and if necessary, people you associated with. All that could quickly become very embarrassing for you. It is not usually my style but despite your rudeness to me I would hate to see you, for lack of a better word further making a fool of yourself. *****

3. And the worst, shamefully you lowered yourself and exposed your boorishness by attacking another person ad hominem, with no provocation, just because the opinions were not to your liking. *****

This discussion of "proving the negative" is misdirected, folks. Yes, "negative proof" is a logical fallacy (look it up in wikipedia as to why).

However, the husband here already has pretty good reason to suspect that his wife is cheating on him. This is enough to mess up even the most stoic, logical individual. Would _this_character_ react emotionally and make an unreasonable demand? Absolutely. It is logical for this character to behave illogically in this situation.

I can also accept the theory that he is merely looking for her to make an *attempt* at saving the marriage - even though he's grasping at straws here.

Poor sweet innocent Mary that would not hurt a fly has damaged a man and all of his friends and family during their separation by her lies. Frankly, I do not believe a word she says. She said she would not contest a divorce. That way she could run back to her old boyfriend for some more spit swapping. If she did contest the divorce, that would show that she cares about her husband and she would be willing to forgive his infidelity that never occurred. She does not want to be married and her therapist conquered. She is in a win win situation that would leave her with the best of everything. A divorce and she gets her old boyfriend back and in the process her husbands brothers and sisters think he is an asshole. If he takes her back, he will not be able to trust her and everyone will think that she is giving him a second chance out of the goodness of her black heart. What a BITCH. Once a cheater, always a cheater and she has a proven track record of breaking her marriage vows.

Thank you Anonymousreader for your civil tone! It is much appreciated.

I am all game to sail the high and bright spheres of scientific definitions of research terms and procedures as well as the area of philosophy of science which you seem to gravitate towards. But before I do that, (I’ll go back to it in the last paragraph), I just want to say that per this story, it is not necessary. Starting from the misnomer of ‘proving the negative’. You do not have here a case of a rigorous scientific experiment. All you have here is a simple request for accountability to one’s whereabouts over a limiter period of time. You do not attempt to generalize over any rules of nature or of human behavior; therefore you are not in the realm of scientific theories that need to be proved or disproved one way or another. That is why the soon to be ex husband was not holding to straws; did not mess up or behaved illogically as you saw it. In my view, his request for accountability allowed him at final analysis to get an objective perspective on Mary, and as she failed to meet his demand, he could assess her for what she really was, not for her earlier manipulations not even for what he conjured initially as some ‘attempts’ (which she did not pursue for too long), but for her inability to meet the demands of the test. Simple and brilliant. The reason? Not because it’s impossible to be met. Quite the opposite. It’s very easy to do it – that is if indeed you were not lying all along. On the other hand, it’s bordering with the impossible if you were lying. That’s the beauty of it. It’s simple and powerful test which Mary failed to pass despite her desperate efforts to go around it. He asks her to prove that she could not have cheated on him. That is a very simple request (if labor intensive to implement). No need for a research degree to understand what he said. He simply asked her to account for her whereabouts, as in: “Darling, where have you been and what have you done?” Along with John Donne contention in his poem by the same title, It’s today’s reality that “No man (or a woman) is an island” Despite our occasional romantic delusions. *****

The simple physical pre conditions condition of sexual liaison require enough time; place; lack of any witnesses for that period of time ; the shared space/time presence of the two people; No witnesses seeing them immediately after and before the act coming in or out the ‘love nest’ Etc. The reality is that it is very difficult now days NOT to be seen by any one. To the most part someone knows or can know something about us: where and when we are, or information could be retrieved to prove the same. Therefore, it should make the original task VERY EASY for you if you are innocent, and VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE if you are guilty (detectives have known that and will give you enough rope till you hang yourself with some of the details that you provide. You see, with the truth, even if you have made some mistake in your accounting, any repeat checking will correct your mistake. It will either establish your current status of innocence or it will clear you. Not so if you are lying. Mary ‘came clean’, among other reasons, not just because she had a change of heart, but because she probably knew that sooner or later someone would make a mistake; a slip of tongue will occur ; an incongruence between her and the ex boyfriend versions could be exposed ;someone might have seen them, and so on. *****

The ACCOUNTABILITY REQUEST, or the alibi type of proof, is very solid and it works. That’s why it is used universally under one name or another in formal as in informal institutions all the time. That is why it worked for the husband. *****

In non experimental science (Mathematics) you can prove the negative. In experimental science you only support theories. Regarding proofs – ‘forget about it’, you prove nothing… (See the best on the subject by Karl Popper “The Logic of Scientific Discovery”). You only disprove the opposite of your theory by failing to prove the conditions that if proven correct the theory itself would be wrong. in the process or repeating this failure of disproving you keep strengthening the theory itself. The bad news – it’s quite a maze... The good news - since there was no attempt here to generalize anything to the level of a scientific theory which is presumed to produce some rule or a generalization on the physical world or the human behavior, I am relieved to say that neither the use of “proving the negative” was relevant here, nor any other “proof” in empirical science terms.*****

Now that I put everyone to sleep I want to thank the author for hosting the discussion and to apologize in the name of all the readers for the deterioration of the exchanges here to unnecessary lows.

***** I am looking forward to some more high quality upgrades to stories that went out of gas or felt apart in the middle…

Neville Chamberlin, perhaps? No transgression is to big to not be appeased? I wonder if a Lit Wife was naked on her marital bed w/her Lover and has a notarized affidavit swearing to that fact, would he maybe, possibly, believe that she's NOT wearing a halo? Let me ask you something, Alvaron. If your daughter (or sister) behaved like the wife, how would you defend her to your Son-in-Law? BTW, I liked the story, myself.

To All,

Thanks for all the comments, good and bad. I appreciate some of the points you made, in some cases you're exactly right. I did miss some points and the story would have been better if I'd done them, but nobody's perfect.

With regard to the 'proving a negative' debate. This requirement from Frank came from a story I read, I don't remember the title, where the wife, who had been cheating, tried to convince her husband that she hadn't been. He knew she'd 'dated' some men but she claimed she never had sex with them. She made them talk to the husband and try to convince him that nothing had happened. In one case the man was a great liar, if the husband hadn't known he might have believed him. Luckily the others were lousy liars and he had his 'proof'. This is what I wanted her to do, to have Tim and the others try to convince him that nothing had happened. I obviously failed to explain it properly, and I'm sorry I caused so much 'friction'.

I appreciate the support from those that asked me to 'fix' other stories. I do them when I get revved up by the situation and not all stories do that, though you are correct, there are a lot of them.

This one had a lot of logical inconsistencies, as many of you have mentioned, and I felt the need to address them. I feel I did that, for better or worse, but with what level of success is up for debate.

Again, thanks for all the comments, and please remember, IT'S ONLY A STORY!!

Ray

fdkman262

I always did feel a little uncomfortable with the reconciliation in JPB's original story - it was a little too easy. I think this story played out a reasonable alternative. Sometimes things just don't work out.

Thank you

PT

I liked very much your take of this story until this last comment: "You're a good man, Frank. Too damn good for me."

This is just something that Mary wouldn't say.

I personally am sick of your sermonizing and changing other authors stories. Why don't you write your own stuff instead of rewriting other authors stories. Wait maybe its because you haven't got an original thougt in your stupid head.

Write your own stuff and stop stealing others

interesting comments,many stating this is an improvement from JPB's ending.i don't agree with that.i feel JPB's story was one of the few that he had a legitimate ending for. your ending is equally good,just the opposite outcome. whatever, good job. don

I liked JPB's ending better. Now, given the facts that you changed in your story, mainly sex with Tim, separation would be the logical course. JPB's characters are consistent with people that are a little insecure and would rather speculate and avoid the issues. They get mad instead of sad because anger is easier to remain in control. When sad makes them feel like a victim, helpless, hopeless and they can't do anything to change it. That's why the title is HARDHEADS. I thought the story flowed nicely, however. I really enjoyed it. Thanks

I don't really like sad ending, but this one really patch up some of the holes in JPB's original story. I have to give me a perfect 10 for this. -- Thor

First of all, we enjoy & appreciate this author's work. He makes sense of many of the wimp husband stories out there. Atlas, the Alvaron53 the "professional idiot commentator" showed his lack of intelligence as well as his "self-implied" superiority [not even close]. It was a pleasure to see so many take that fucking idiot to task. Enjoyed the rebuttal to the idiot.

the illogic of KOLKORE's ramblings nor Harry's invective nor the quality of fdkman's story. It's good to see that some things don't change. I'm sure in your brilliance you can figure out to what I allude.

Yep, a year later and the "professional commentator" is still low on creditability and spouting the usual bullshit. Shame - one would think his IQ would eventually rise about 53.

The story....eh....ok I suppose, not poorly written but not a story I'd revisit due to lack of interest. No big deal.

The comments, on the other hand, are fucking hilarious! Hell, some of them seem longer than the story, go into details I doubt anyone gives a serious shit about, and then go some more. Top it off with more mumbling by alvaron, who must be the guy Billy Joel wrote the song "big shot" about. I get the feeling he's one of those people that people tolerate...much like hemorroids, a little treatment and great hope that they'll go away and never come back. Someone commenting on a story plot they didn't like, I can see; someone not liking the characters or their actions, no problem; some self appointed know-it-all asshole who in his arrogance actually thinks that as the end-all auditor and editor of all writings his opinion is actually needed or wanted by ANYONE, I can't see. It seems that opinions on a lot of stories usually split 50/50, but alvaron is in a class by himself...and belongs there. I don't usually don't offer criticism in an english usage sense because I'm not an author/editor nor propose to be one, but if I did, I'd try to offer constructive criticism in a way that was helpful, respectful, and didn't blare out so fervently what a narcissistic asshole I was. Alvaron, take the hint...please!

Good ending; she admits she wanted out of the marriage and used the excuse she had at hand. This is quite common in real life. Any spouse or companion that is left suddenly is grief-stricken and will forever want to know...why? He at least got the why! End of story! I left my first wife of 15 years because I knew she was cheating. Twenty eight years later she is still crying "Why"? Even after I had told her I had quit loving her because of what she had done... She had gotten away with it for a long time and I suppose she thought I had just accepted it. She thought she could have her cake and eat it too. I think most cheaters do think that way. It must be part of the losing respect for the one you cheat on. You think? Hell, I know! I didn't respect myself for years because I couldn't understand why she wanted to cheat on me! Very hard on the ego...

She was a fuck around slut before her marriage and couldnt hold it together. She is a fuck around slut at the end of her marriage and will be forever.

good story / probably the most likely ending

I appreciated the work you put into this version of the ending. The original left me very unsatisfied. Unfortunately, this one did too. The really frustrating part is I can't say why. Perhaps the contrition Mary showed wasn't sincere. Perhaps I wanted to see Mary hurt the same way Frank had been hurt. I don't know. Keep it up. I will be reading more.

The idiots [JPB, MattM, Britease and even fucked up Angie] could find a decent ending to one of these sad situations to save their souls. So thank you author for your plausible ending. Debra & Wayne

Got her phone number?

tom anon

That I have to agree with, "Devildog" on this one. She just told him what he all ready knew. She may have been felling sorry for what she did, but she wasn't. She should have been made to feel more guilty in this story. She said that his mother told her he still loved her, but she told him that she was sorry and she must release him from the floundering shell that used to bee their marriage...bull shit!

A WOMAN SCORNED. OR WAS SHE. THE REAL TRUTH HURTS. A FALSE TRUTH DESTROYS. THERE IS ALWAYS UNKNOWN DEPTHS IN US ALL. TK U MLJ LV NV

The ending is as good as could be expected from a fucked up story.

Dating guys alone, sex or not, divorce her why wait seven months

She decides to be a decent human being and let the poor guy off the hook - with the Truth?

It doesn't fit. She secretly wanted out of her marriage (sneaky) and uses an excuse and now she's up front and honest?

And the old BF doesn't get beat up? I would think Mr. Smirk would get a little something just for laughing at a real man - a man hurt beyond words!

Oh well, our guy is still hurt, he has answers, she gets to have all the sex she wants, she's happy and he's a wreck.

Thanks for the effort - You DID a Good Job - Really!

Thanks!

Slut got off too easy.

Good writing but it left me feeling emotionally flat. Stories of this genre should invoke emotion. This did not.

Keep writing and trying.

Thx.

This version seems too contrived.

Better resolution than the original. She was a slut wannabe and lied to all to try to save her marriage. Fucking cunt deserved more retribution, however. She got off too easy. Hopefully she caught an STD and is now in constant pain. Fucking cheating whore.

I liked JPB's resolution much better. His ending just flowed along and felt like a plausible resolution to the Hardheads that they were. Your ending didn't seem to be as believable. I felt you really had to work to make Mary bad. It's like you decided that she did cheat and you wrote it that way. Try to finish some of Bob's other unfinished stories - there are SO many!

Sorry but very depressing. Why would a man leave his wife on a bar necking with another man?? Where is the man in this character?? That singular point killed the story.

The ending was unreasonable. I think the original ending was much better.

But kudos for the effort. Its an alternate you're comfortable with, and at least you made the effort to write.

And as she left the parking lot still crying, she pulled out in front of a speeding truck. The driver barely had time to touch his brakes. The truck went through her car like a warm knife through soft butter. She was decapitated and died instantly. Her lying eyes were still wet with tears and those eyes stared directly at her limp body.

just leave with an AMF TK U MLJ LV NV

For Sharing,

What a bullshit ending.

When wives step outside the marriage, then don't generally look back. The only reason they don't just leave their husbands immediately is because they need the stability. When caught cheating, they would simply shrug indifference and move on. If not caught, they would serve their husbands divorce papers as soon as their lovers take over as providers. The notion that wives would fall apart and beg to be taken back when they are caught cheating is just a silly male fantasy.

Loving wives stories should be about the time before the cheating. Once the cheating happens, the marriage is over, and it's only a matter of time until the divorce papers are served. Also, aftermath stories, whether they about cuckolding or revenge, are just boring and sad to read. Stories about foiling seductions are suspenseful and exciting. Do the comparison and you would see.

The ending sucked worse than a dime store hooker.

3*, even if I didn't like the ending...Why? She wanted the divorce, to be free, so why did she broke down crying after confessing? Why did he wait six months to ask for divorce?

A "1" for failing miserably. Whether it was losing the character of the two people Bob wrote or whether it was the uncomfortable ending that made this less than satisfactory, I simply didn't enjoy it. And that all by its self was both disappointing and frustrating. Bob is a good, albeit, frustrating writer. So many of his stories "Leave the ending to the imaginations of the reader" that it's frustrating to read his stuff. Unfortunately your ending just didn't fill the void. Better luck next time.

I believe that many times we really don't understand why we do the things that we do. We are seldom aware of our motivations for the actions we take and the words that we say; often handling things in the worst possible manner before we really

think things through.

That's why Mary's "confession" and request for forgiveness rings true to me. She did

handle things badly. Then, amid all of her grandstanding, lies and cheating, she finally figured it out. It doesn't excuse her but it does make forgiveness possible.

sob sob but all my female characters can do is cry sob sob....forgive me sob sob.

violence against women is because they fucking cry so fucking much..beat the bitch.

Kissed her on the nose?? Really?? No need to hit her or anything but cutesy signs of affection? Uh Uh no way.

She stood up, turned around and walked out of the bar and out of my life. As she did, someone near the door stood up and started following her out.

As she reached the door, she looked back around at me, giving me a little wave. Unfortunately, she wasn't watching where she was going. Her foot hit the jam, and she twisted around sideways, and she fell hard - her leg twisted unnaturally, and her eye hitting the door lever. Blood spurted everywhere.

I started to get up, but the other person was there before me - I looked closely - it was Tim, the Bastard!

As Tim was helping her, I saw the bartender using the phone. Maybe he was calling 911. "You pushed her, you bastard!" I yelled. Tim turned around, Mary's blood on his hands.

"I...I...' he was struggling for something to say.

"I saw it - He pushed her" - I said to the police and EMT's as they were entering the bar. Mary was struggling. "Tim, why? I thought you loved me!"

"Yeah, Tim - Why did you push her?"

"I didn't he said, she tripped, I swear!"

Other people joined in "Looked like you pushed her to me, you bastard!" one shouted. "Yeah, you son of a bitch! You did it on purpose."

The policeman looked over at the bartender/Owner. The bartender wasn't stupid. He knew this was a liability suit in the making. "Yes officer - That man pushed her on purpose."

Tim stood up as the policeman walked over to him, and took off running. The EMT's were hustling Mary into the ambulance. People were milling around, it was chaos. Suddenly there was a shout from outside, and a loud blast. The officer finally made it through the crowd. Tim had ran into his partner shouting, in the scuffle, he was shot in the head.

Epilog

Mary lost her eye, and her leg had to be reconstructed. Every step was painful for her, she would never dance again. The large scar down the side of her face, her pronounced limp, and the accompanying grimace from the pain, almost guaranteed she would never date again.

Tim didn't survive. The newspapers reported him as a serial adulterer, a wife beater, and one paper even insinuated he was a closeted pedophile. His family was so shamed that the all had to quit their jobs and move out of town.

Frank met and married Sue Ellen, the 22 year old red headed bombshell that had just started as the kindergarten teacher. She was pregnant with twins before their first year was up. She had to take off her job because the pregnancy was a little rough due to her small size, but it was OK - they didn't need the money. Sue Ellen was a local heiress, and had a trust fund that would support them indefinitely.

Frank felt sorry for Mary. As a gift, he sent her a picture of him, his new wife, and their twin girls, from their vacation in Tahiti.

Jack99 ending is so much better. She was nothing but a who're.

And he was a fool. His parents and siblings were right.

Now the way it ended may have been the correct end but that does not mean he acted correctly.

Why are men such idiots. Men who truly love their wives just don't act that way.

And I'll bet Tim was waiting for her in his car so they could get down to the sucking and fucking they'd been doing for the past 6 months.

If Frank doesn't do something to get revenge by humiliating the twat,he's just another pussy-wimp!

Mary was just a whore. Nothing to like about her.

Interesting. My take is that she is giving him an “out” but really, really wants him to protest and to offer a way back together. The guy is thicker than a brick, a real hard-head, to not see this. The key phrase is “you’re a good man, Frank. Too good for me”.

This cunt mbgdallas always takes the cheating cunts side and thinks the betrayed husbands are stupid when they don't take them back. Obviously a cheater herself, who thinks her cunt doesn't stink.

I have deliberately searched out sequels and alternate endings by others for JPB stories, because JPB is so terrible at endings (I hate unfinished stories), but otherwise has written some great stories. This is the first time that a JPB ending is better than the other ending. As I read fdkman's ending, I recognized that this was the better story/ending (and I had given JPB 5 stars), but the conclusion changed it to 3 stars. Musicguy4fun got it right. Mary now recognizes why she was not the wife she should have been and that is why she will be the wife she should be and now wants to be. He is foolish to start over with someone else with her own deficiencies and problems to be dealt with.

Paul in Oklahoma

But I like Bob 's ending better, also it's good that you got the family rooting for him, but I still feel the story could have been flushed out a bit more. Truthfully I can't see her cheating on him either other than making out with her ex-boyfriend. (Which I personally would consider cheating.) Especially if he didn't take her back she would have plenty of time to cheat, chances are she probably stalled coming to see him due to shame. Still overall a good redo keep e'm coming.

Frank read the tea leaves correctly. Mary's attempts at reconciliation were motivated by guilt not love.

Mary saw her chance to get out of the marriage and took it. She dated 4 guys quickly and confirmed to herself that she no longer wanted to be married. Professional help allowed her to recognize why she behaved the way she did. But most importantly Frank recognized her behavior for what it was even before she did. Therefore he felt vindicated when she admitted that she was no longer satisfied in the marriage.

They parted amicably. Both better off for not being locked in a marriage that was clearly doomed at some point in the future.

Good solid logical ending. No BTB nor RAAC.

My least favorite of all your stories. I've read them all. Glad I saved this for last.

Fdk's title does not produce it. So looked under Frank and Mary. No luck. Eventually tried The Hardheads: Frank and Mary.

Paul in Oklahoma

asshole couple friends who want me to forgive a cheating slut have to let me fuck the female half of the couple so they can personally demonstrate to me how they forgive infidelity

Better, by a long shot, than the original JPB story.

jumping to allusions by not accepting truths a good choice was made by both, AMF...TK U MLJ LV NV

wow.... normally i would say btb but my respect grew for the wife when she admitted her mistakes and let him have his freedom without a fight.

What a crock of shit. This was one giant seesaw. She loves him but wants to give him his freedom - so she can hook up with all of the other guys. Well, like some stories say she did ask for the divorce before totally blowing up the marriage.

Better ending than JPB's original story.

Better than the original.

You cleaned it up nicely.

Tim still needs a long lasting lesson about the consequences of fucking another man's wife.