Husband Went Too Far

TONYA: after that incident, he was never cocky around me again

ANDY: do you know from other people if he was cocky around them after that incident?

TONYA: no. he was sort of a jealous type and most of his friends were male. he had one close friend that made passes at me behind his back but for the most part they were decent guys - but i would never have spoken with them w/o coward around

TONYA: unless they called the house or something when he wasn't there

ANDY: so you really do not know - i am thinking that if you had been on good terms with others in his life, they would have said that M has mellowed out

TONYA: one of his sisters once told me that she didn't like the way i had "changed" him. i didn't ask what she meant because she never liked me and thought that i was "snooty"

ANDY: at what point in time did she say that you changed him?

TONYA: we had been married almost a year.

ANDY: i am thinking that M grew up being what I call the 'alpha male' in his groups of friends. And that he always regarded himself as invincible and never lost a physical fight. And you literally broke his spirit - and that is what his sister was referring to.

TONYA: so do you think he became a coward because i broke his spirit?

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TONYA: we were married April 13, 2001. the incident occurred around Sept/Oct '01. I found out i was pregnant in Feb '02; he slinked away Nov/Dec '02. Very short history together

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ANDY: I would like to clarify the 5 minutes you were on the floor with coward holding back his arm

ANDY: first he struggled

ANDY: then he stopped

ANDY: then he cried

ANDY: then you whispered to him

ANDY: you let him cry some more

ANDY: then you let him go

ANDY: is this correct?

TONYA: yes

ANDY: thanks

ANDY: for how long (minutes) was his tears flowing?

TONYA: perhaps a couple of minutes while i was there. he may have cried longer after i left, but i took a shower and went to bed, so i cannot say for certain

ANDY: so you let him go

ANDY: and did he just fall to the floor at that point? or get up?

TONYA: he was already on the floor, leaning forward, with my weight against him. when i got up, he stayed in that position, except he held his arm - and he was still breathing hard - as if he was angry

ANDY: were you scared he would get up and attack you?

TONYA: not at all. i knew i had made my point. and even if i hadn't, i was quite prepared to do whatever necessary to make sure i had made my point - and i knew he knew that too

ANDY: of course

ANDY: how long did you look at him before walking up to shower?

TONYA: i didn't look at him at all. i got up and walked away. i was completely prepared to die or go to prison, rather than be in another abusive relationship

ANDY: was that your thought while in the shower - that you did what you had to do to not be abused again? sort of like a firm resolve stayed with you as the water fell over you?

TONYA: yes, that's a perfect description of how i felt

ANDY: was there a point before you went to sleep where you felt compassion and snuck downstairs to see how he was doing?

TONYA: no

ANDY: so at what point did you stop feeling filled with anger?

TONYA: my anger was over once i let him go

ANDY: i thought anger lasted well into the shower - maybe we define anger differently. Lets say that the RAGE left when he let him go, and the anger stayed

ANDY: once the anger is gone, then compassion comes

ANDY: I know you

ANDY: so when did that anger leave you?

ANDY: back up - when you whispered to coward as he was crying - were you waiting for a verbal reply?

TONYA: no. i knew he wasn't going to respond

TONYA: i suppose the last of my anger was washed away in the shower

ANDY: how long a shower - was it unusually long?

TONYA: not for me - maybe 10-15 minutes

ANDY: did you have trouble falling asleep that night?

TONYA: no

ANDY: so your mind was not troubled by what happened and you did not feel sleeping alone was distracting

ANDY: how come?

ANDY: or was it the reaction to the adrenaline

ANDY: that got you so tired

ANDY: that you fell to sleep

TONYA: all i can say about that night is that i slept very calmly and very peacefully

ANDY: i am wondering if that feeling how your own physical power was like a comfort to you. Since Larry you never knew if you had it in you to stop someone from physically abusing you. And this was the demonstration of that. So, you felt relieved, and more secure.

ANDY: is that it?

TONYA: Andy, i just don't know. i realize now that it was the first and last time i have ever felt completely at peace with myself

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ANDY: yes - you knew he needed pride?

TONYA: i have always believed that a man thrives on his pride, and i have never wanted to do anything to hurt that - not to take away the pride he had in himself. for some men, that's really all that they have - and its a very delicate and precious thing

TONYA: esp. for black men

TONYA: to feel respected

ANDY: this is great

ANDY: so after he understood - you loved him and accepted him and were affectionate to him

ANDY: i think this is how all relationships should be

TONYA: that's exactly how it was

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ANDY: are you right handed or left handed?

TONYA: right

ANDY: what about coward?

TONYA: right

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ANDY: for example, if I did what coward did

ANDY: and order you to get everyone drinks

ANDY: and food

ANDY: you would simply refuse

ANDY: you would stand there and say 'get it yourself

ANDY: right?

TONYA: in response to that, let me make a distinction

ANDY: i am here

TONYA: if you ASKED me to do these things, I would do them. if coward had continued to ASK me, i would have continued to do them. i have no problem with that

ANDY: what were his exact words?

ANDY: you never said

TONYA: i mentioned it, vaguely: 'get this', 'do that' 'pick that up' 'bring me this/that' - and each time i would leave the room so he could enjoy his "boys club" he'd yell for me to come back and do something else

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ANDY: was it physically difficult to hold his arm behind his back as he was threatening you?

ANDY: was it taxing your strength?

TONYA: of course it was

ANDY: so that is why you dropped to the ground

ANDY: since you knew instinctively

ANDY: that this was far more control for you

ANDY: right?

ANDY: the key word here - instinctively

TONYA: i did know that i could not hold him that way for very long, so i had to drop him to the floor to gain leverage.

ANDY: but you were never in a fight before AND you had no interest in such things

ANDY: so that whole concept was instinctive

TONYA: but you forget that i had self defense class

ANDY: did they teach you that there?

TONYA: absolutely. the main focus was that Everybody's strength is limited -from the largest to the smallest. so when you attempt any physical confrontation, it is always best to gain leverage as fast as you an

TONYA: can

TONYA: you get leverage, you gain control - you wont have to use as much strength

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TONYA: when i fought with him, he was reaching up to slap me. i grabbed his arm and twisted it around his back, pressing his elbow into his back, while pushing his wrist back, holding the pressure point on his wrist while applying as much pressure as i could. no, i did not try this as a child - i did not fight as a kid. whatever technique i learned i learned through a class

ANDY: what angle was his hand at? now it seems like a 3-D thing - with one hand you pushed his elbow in - and the other hand you had on his wrist . and you pulled that back. right?

TONYA: i pushed his elbow in with my upper body, while twisting his wrist back with my hand.

TONYA: i do not see how it would be possible for him to throw you back with the arm you are trying to twist - there wont be that much strength in it from that direction - unless you failed to get behind his back and he had momentum when pushing you from the front r the side.

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ANDY: when you grabbed his arm and first took him on - you KNEW that you would beat him - or do whatever it took to do so. You were so DETERMINED. You will was this huge force

ANDY: right?

TONYA: you're right

ANDY: and when you were pressing your body against his back pressing him down as he sat there, using all your might to press his arm against his back - and your face was next to him - you were thinking over and over to yourself - I am in control. I am going to beat him. And when those tears came, tears that you never saw before - You KNEW in your inner soul that he was beaten. This is making me red in the face typing this.

TONYA: yes, i knew

ANDY: and you must have known that you had this new power over him, because he was never beaten up before

TONYA: i knew

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TONYA: I was never cheek to cheek with him during this situation. I was leaning on his arm, which was pressed against his back, with his wrist pulled back, using all of my strength to hold him. I leaned forward, using my body to press his arm deeper into his back and leaned down to the back of his ear and whispered to him. My lips touched the back of his ear as I whispered, and I could see the tears rolling down his face from that position. I never felt them; I was never cheek to cheek with him.

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TONYA: NO. I was not proud of what I had done. Initially, I felt some exhilaration and utter surprise at what I had done. I had a major adrenaline rush. I felt the muscles in my arms working overtime and straining and perhaps even the smallest hint of pain from this strain, but the adrenaline rush was so powerful that I looked at this as minor. My heart was racing faster than I have ever felt it before, as if it would pump out of my chest, and, as I leaned in closer to put my weight on his back, I recall thinking that he could probably feel my heart beating so fast and he may take that as a sign that he may be able to now overpower me, so I tightened my already taut grip on his arm and his wrist. Because I was so close to him - my chest against his back, I realized that it was not simply my heart beating so fast - it was his. I could feel his heart beat, as his entire body moved slightly with each beat. I cold see the veins in his neck pulsing out. I could smell his perspiration, mixed with my own. His breathing was rapid, as was my own, as if we were tangled in some passionate love making orgasmic embrace.

TONYA: When he first began crying, I didn't notice. The only sounds in the room was labored breathing - his and mine. Then I heard him sniffle. I felt his body move ever-so-slightly with the smallest of sobs. That was it. No great sobs. Just an occasional sniffle. And his crying only came after I had whispered in his ear. At that moment, I felt extremely low. This is the man that I love - that I have made love to many times. A man that I was truly IN love with, and would have done anything for. He was proud of his body and of his great strength. He felt good doing the "heavy" work. He felt good that he could defend me against anyone if necessary. He took pride in the fact, that, no matter what, he could physically defend his wife against any adversary, large or small. I had reduced him. I had taken that away from him - all in course of no more than 5 or 10 minutes. I felt no power in that.

TONYA: What does a man have, when you take away his pride? Not much. I now find it comical that he even hung around for the next year. Perhaps he was plotting and planning his escape. I'll never know. The fact is, I took away his pride. When he left, the way he left - it's quite appropriate, don't you think? That is why is the coward.

TONYA: I felt low for finding it necessary to sink to such a level as physical battle. And I felt angry with him, for forcing me to. I pray that I will never have the need of such a physical confrontation, and I pray that I will never be angry enough to even consider such a thing.

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TONYA: I felt safe and secure the first night and all of the following nights. The first night, I suppose there was also exhaustion mixed with my feelings of safety. I have also read somewhere that when a powerful adrenaline rush is gone, you're extremely tired. I'm sure this added to the way I felt as well.

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Andy: When you and him passed each other silently around the house, did he literally avoid looking directly at you? Like did his head turn down or away?

TONYA: I can't tell you if he turned his head away, because I turned mine away. I didn't want to see the defeat in his face, because now I saw him differently. Not as a weak man, but as someone that I could physically manipulate if the need arose. I know that I had lost a bit of respect for him because of that. Not a lot, mind you, but some. And I knew that he would be able to see that in my face, and I didn't want to see THAT in his face. I didn't want to take away any more than I already had. So I passed him as if I didn't see him.

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Andy: During these 4 days, were you ever concerned that you would be sleeping apart forever? Was there a point, where you would have invited him to your bed, if he had not come?

TONYA: I wondered if our marriage was over at that point. I wondered if his pride could get beyond what had happened. I still loved him, and I wanted him, but I didn't know if he still wanted to be wanted. I braced myself for him telling me that he wanted a divorce. I expected it. I was ready for it. I was not going to invite him back to bed. He HAD to make that decision on his own. I had to leave him with that much.

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ANDY: you say 'do not underestimate me', and obvious provocation

ANDY: this is fighting words

ANDY: what did you think would happen?

TONYA: i thought we would argue about it

ANDY: did him raising his arm really freak you out?

TONYA: you know, it was like i was watching myself, but the whole thing seemed like it was in slow motion - like i could anticipate what he was doing, and thought of a counteraction for it before he could do it.

ANDY: what this tells me is that you switched into fighting Tonya at the very first signal that he was going to strike you.

ANDY: what I was asking was that if you were sort of shocked that he would dare to even strike you, when you were expecting a verbal argument

TONYA: i cant remember that. i didn't have time to be shocked or think about being shocked. one minute we're face to fact, the next split second, he's raising his arm to strike me

ANDY: is there some signal that you sensed that he was raising his arm before it actually moved?

ANDY: maybe a set of facial expression

ANDY: a twitch?

ANDY: the sensation of slow motion was one of the fighting modes

TONYA: it was probably both. i was so keenly concentrated on him that i could see everything - and my adrenaline was really high, so i was more aware of everything

ANDY: so in my estimation you were really expecting a fight - no matter what form it took even before he was going to strike you

TONYA: i was expecting a verbal fight

ANDY: have you had verbal fights with him like this before?

TONYA: sure, we had arguments

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