All Comments on 'Vanessa and Marnie in Conversation'

I have never done this to any author yet. I always read all stories before rating. But I'm gonna go with my gut feeling and give you a 1 and move on.

Barry finds out an divorces the count and takes revenge on the friends.

I have this sinking feeling in my stomach about dear old Barry. Just spare us the seagulls and the infinite love, for pity's sake.

We got it. Swinging and cucking and whoring is the way. It certainly suits brit wimps and sluts like yourselves.

Comment what? The "dilemma"? I didn't see any...she has decided that she will do it...And that the husband is the one to blame...He works too much to give a good life to his wife and family...1*

I applaud you for wading into the uncertain waters of fiction. As a writing exercise, it requires an entirely different set of skills than nonfiction to pull it off successfully. I encourage you to continue in this direction.

As to the story, as you wrote in the author's notes, it isn't quite a "story." It's a setup to a story, and I can't help but wonder why you left it there. The most difficult part of writing, IMHO, is the ending. Was it merely too difficult to come up with an interesting ending to this tale, or was this done purely to spark a conversation?

If it's the latter, my own opinion is that if Marnie has sex outside of her marriage without Bill's knowledge, and he finds out about it, then there should be consequences. It isn't about the sex; it's about doing something of which you know your spouse wouldn't approve. If you're gambling or doing drugs behind your spouse's back, the consequences should be the same. The sin committed in this story just happens to be sex.

It's an age-old morality question: if you can commit an immoral act and get away with it, would you? If you could rob a bank and get away with it, would you? If you could commit rape or murder and get away with it, would you? Which immoral acts would you commit if there were no consequences?

The religious-minded would have you believe that if it weren't for the threat of eternal damnation, we would all be robbing, raping, and murdering each other like wild animals. The non-religious believe that moral behavior is ingrained in our DNA through countless generations of breeding. The theory there is that people who commit robbery, rape, and murder wouldn't live long enough to pass their amoral genes on to the next generation.

It's a very interesting topic that was, unfortunately, not addressed in this story.

couple where the husband is an idiot in this story and in real life.

The story was an experiment which apparently hasn't worked particularly well. (Although at present it has more favourites than comments. I'm not sure what that indicates.)

Marnie has decided to have sex with a man who is not her husband. The dilemma is whether to do it and hide it from her husband, or try to convince him that he should accept that she is going to do it.

Finishing the story would have required me as author to make her choice and the probable commentary would have been the usual that we see for LW stories. In your (SJ) story today we see that many comments can't distinguish between adulterous sex as an act itself and hiding that act from a spouse.

Your question of 'is it ok to do something so long as there are no consequences' is, I believe, one of degree. It's a matter of defining the consequences. I work on the principle of 'nobody gets hurt'. In your bank robbery example, at least the bank gets hurt and probably the people. When a spouse commits adultery, is the 'wronged' spouse hurt if he or she doesn't find out?

That's why I didn't provide an end to Marnie's story.

L

It's interesting that the couple of Marnie and Barry are not talking to each other about their feelings, now that the children are gone. While reading the story, I had the feeling that Marnie is emotionally hollow and wants to compensate her loss trough an adventure with her neighbour. Personally I can't separate sex form love. But I suppose that's only my problem or it depends on how you were brought up. I believe when you love and trust your partner and she cheats on you for the only reason to gain experience, that's a very hard blow to the gut. But I'm curious how your story will go on.

your explanation made no sense finish

the damn stories people most of us reading in this category do so for various reasons, but then again, most of us want resolution's too

I understand, to some extent, what you were trying to do here. LW readers, by and large, want to see blood when a woman steps outside of her marriage -- regardless of whether or not hubby is on board with it. If you were to end this story without giving them their fresh meat, they would not be happy. But then, we don't write for them, do we?

I think the problem with the dilemma you created is that it doesn't seem like much of a dilemma. Marnie's decision was made before she took any action. If she were merely "swept away" by this man or got caught up in the "heat of the moment", I think that would be more of a forgivable transgression. We're only human, after all. But Marnie made a premeditated decision to do something she knew was wrong, hubby be damned, and that makes it difficult for readers to care about her "dilemma."

One comment you made particularly hits home: "When a spouse commits adultery, is the 'wronged' spouse hurt if he or she doesn't find out?"

As you may know, I wrote a story where a spouse commits adultery and keeps it a secret from her husband. She dies of cancer, and he doesn't find out about her brief moment of infidelity until years after she had passed. I was absolutely FLOORED by the number of readers who commented that the wife should have told her husband about the affair.

What purpose would it serve to tell your spouse about an affair if: a) you regret it immensely, wish it had never happened, and would never consider doing it again, and b) this news would be completely devastating to your spouse and your marriage? I mean...why would you purposely hurt someone more than necessary, just to make yourself feel less guilty? Talk about selfish!

Anyway, I know you stated you don't intend to finish this story, but I challenge you to do so in a way that is both entertaining and unique.

My world is too calm and clinical to accept your challenge. My two endings would have Marnie and Will having a secret one-night stand and not getting caught, or all four characters negotiating Marnie's liaison with Will and everything working out nicely. Neither would be particularly exciting stories.

The interesting stories are those where the cheating wife gets caught out as in your today's contribution, or where the wife delivers an ultimatum as in Richard Gerald's classic The Bridge where the wife says she is about to spend the night with another man. The husband says "Do I have a choice?" Wife replies "Not really, it's decided. I'm just telling you, so you know." My Marnie couldn't do that.

It's the strife which eventuates that makes these stories interesting.

L

Ps: You refer to your story in which the wife dies. I recall one well-written story I read some time ago where the husband found a letter or diary in which the departed wife spoke of an affair. I didn't recognise it from the names in your story list. Which is it?

Since you did not pose the question Should Marnie cheat, we can only discuss the question, should she confess, or not. I don't see any reason for Marnie to confess. The only reason to confess would be out of self-respect and a sense of moral obligation to Barry. A good wife would not face this dilemma, and a whore doesn't have any self-respect or morals.

If Barry is a self-respecting husband and father, he must respond to Marnie's betrayal with divorce. He must do this not only for his self respect, but out of love and respect for his children. His children deserve a father who is not married to or condones the behavior of a whore. He cannot salvage them from having a whore for a mother, but he must do what he can to keep the image of their father as a man of respect and strong ethics. Such men do not live a lie. Now, despite the divorce, Barry might decide to continue to maintain Marnie, out of compassion and forgiveness. And that too would teach his children a lesson. Judgement must be just, but it does not have to be cruel or merciless. Marnie will suffer greatly in mind and soul, so it would be very magnanimous for Barry to make some arrangement to keep Marnie in food, clothing, and shelter. What you might do for a wayward pet that has for some reason attacked you, but who you decide to keep, in a pen, out of gratitude for many previous years of love and loyalty. Of course, unlike the pet, Marnie can leave any time she wants. And good riddance.

All of the above is irrelevant if Barry is not a self-respecting husband and father, in which case Marnie still shouldn't tell Barry, because it won't make any difference to their marriage. If Barry finds out, immediately, or later, he won't do much about it anyway. He will do what he can to keep Marnie as his wife and lover, as long as he doesn't have a better option at the time, the pussy is still good, and he does not suffer from too much humiliation. Of course if Barry is willing to accept Marnie's betrayal then he is probably immune to humiliation. Its hard to humiliate a man who has so little concern for his marriage, his standing within his family, and his dignity. And if Barry has the opportunity to fuck around, he will. Why not? So it won't be any great loss for Barry. And remembering that men age like wine, while women age like cheese, as they get older Barry's opportunities for strange will increase, while Marnie's will decrease. We are describing here a marriage that exists on paper only. Their vows mean nothing because in the end, if Marnie fucks Will, and others (curiosity tends to work like that), and if Barry accepts Marnie's whoring, then Marnie and Barry don't really mean that much to each other. So since telling Barry won't really alter their already phony marriage, why bother to telling him?

I agree with Joe about you finishing the story. The ending you gave in your comment may not tickle everyone's fancy, but it will be YOUR ending. Eventually, if an ending isn't provided, one will be given by another. More than likely, it will change your story completely. At least if you provide an ending, the story stays yours.

Besides, once you start writing, who knows what you may come up with. You could be presented with a twist. In the very least, it could help the next time you write.

My intentions for prompting you to finish aren't entirety about this story. You are a gifted writer. IMHO, this site needs more people like yourself who can give words life. My hope is that you start contributing more stories that are different from the norm in this hub.

We've heard it all before. Every possible scenario has been played out. Stupid woman is tricked by a "friend" who just wants pussy for her husband (she's a whacked out bitch too). The galactically selfish wife is going to fuck the strange and to hell with her own husband. That's just fine in the world of Luedon, Swingerjoe and Javmor79. She's a heroine! Well, bully for you. Obviously, most people think she's just a stupid bitch.

*

There is something in the waters of OZ there has to be.

A friend to behave like a real friend, instead of a pimp for her husbands roving cock.

And I don't suppose it would be sensible for a long term married couple to talk about such things together, lest someone find something the other did distasteful enough to find another way of life.....the risk is only delicious when anticipating the "fun" being planned and while making the ignorant, trusting, innocent one an unknowing victim of a cruel machination. Everyone might get lucky and it might never come out. The criminal may never feel guilt, nor share any expression to belie their crime. But these things tend to go for more than one assignation, and people get careless.

Then it gets ugly and everyone looks back, not nostalgically about how much fun they had, but how their foolish, slimy actions led to betrayal and so much sorrow.

-A cheater's lament-

Someone's gonna cheat,

someone'll get beat;

solicitors will laugh,

judge'll make a gaff;

then go tip back a pint.

God, how I wish we could bring back FTDS.

Why bother? A wife wants to cheat on her husband. Standard Loving Wives faire. The dilemma is neither original or clever. The writing doesn't provoke anger, despair or questions. She states her intentions and then.......... nothing. So my question remains. Why did you bother to write this?

So, the dilemma is whether or not to tell Barry and clue him in on the plan? Or, is it whether or not to get him involved? Sounds simple, Since Vanessa has successfully pulled Marnie into the action, have Will offer Vanessa to Barry. In the interest of fairness, this should be a two way street, after all. If Barry doesn't want to play, at least Marnie will know she's tossing away her marriage if she goes through with her plan. If he does want to play, even Steven. That might take all the drama out of it, though. Lue, you're a cagey girl, ending it here. Well played.

Whether or not to get Barry involved is indeed the dilemma and, if so, how much. A possibility as you hint would be for Will to bribe Barry with an offer of sex with Vanessa.

I was hoping for a comment or two about my descriptions of the wandering hand and sex made boring by following a routine procedure (Marni's checklist). But maybe most of the readers are blokes and wouldn't know much about things like that.

L

"When a spouse commits adultery is the 'wronged' spouse hurt if she or he doesn't find out." Excellent question. It depends I guess on whether the 'wronged' spouse is as indifferent to the relationship as the adulterer. The relationship is obviously damaged.

If Barry is deceived and doesn't find out, or finds out and accepts it, there will be a few appreciative readers getting off on the cuckold scenario but the preferences of the vast majority of readers will almost certainly result in the story being one-bombed into oblivion.

If Barry is deceived, finds out and goes all BTB, you'll get higher scores at the cost of having produced yet another formulaic LW tale. The same is probably true of a story in which Vanessa, Will and Marnie convince Barry to swap.

You could perhaps have Vanessa and Will make a convincing case to Barry that Vanessa could teach Barry a thing or two about sex which he then takes back to Marnie. That might put Barry in a position in which he feels he "owes" it to Will to let him have a turn with Marnie, or needs for Marnie to do Will so that they will be on equal footing again with regard to extramarital sex.

Of course, this whole situation might be avoided if Marnie would just grow a spine and tell Barry that there's a problem with their sex life.

In response to is the post that is the other spouse wronged if she/he doesn't find out. Well it's even worse because the three would have a secret over the deceived one . Put it out there and give the person a chance to say yes or no . Either way weather or not they agree the marriage is in jeopardy because the person might love it that much more with the new person or the one allowing it to happen might not be able to take it that the other is being fucked by another. Me personally if it was even talked about as something my wife wanted to do , I would consider divorce. If your thinking about doing it than you probably will sneak if the protest is put up by the other. She ruined her marriage already and doesn't even know it and the neighbor might be trying to get the hubby to fuck her girls also. That would be the first thing that popped in my head , that she couldn't be trusted at all anymore.

There is a very easy solution to the "wandering hand" problem of having boring and repetitive sex: communication. Of course, that would result in a very boring story of two committed married people talking with one another. I assume that most people don't come to Literotica to read stories about loving committed couples who comminicate well.

I am serious in my assertion that you should challenge yourself and take it as an exercise in writing to finish this story in an interesting and unique way. It can be done. I gave myself that challenge by finishing the "Zero, Fifty, or One Hundred" story. Although readers hated it and nitpicked it to death, none could argue that I hadn't written an interesting and unique ending!

By the way, to answer your question, the story I referred to earlier is "Getting Even."

I expect most of the drama might come from the couple's lifestyle being accidentally or maliciously outed and the reactions of friends, family, stick-in-the-ass employers, etc.

Everybody has a motive for their actions.

Wills is maybe more pussy?

Marnie is strange cock?

Vanessa what is her motive?

If she thought so little of her husband then she would not bother scheming.

No she is after more then Will's notching of the bed post.

Barry is an unknown thing; ugly/cute, fat/thin, attentive/absent?

Besides being a cuckold what could he gain?

How will she handle it if Barry then rejects her after the act?

An interesting question, Anonymous. It hadn't occurred to me that it's perhaps the most interesting of the questions raised by the story. Like all the other questions, the story doesn't even hint at the answer.

I see her as a character somewhat like Jenny Gently's Carmen in her 'Journey Into Cuckoldry' series. Manipulative, but believing that what she is doing is for the good of those she is manipulating as well as for her own entertainment.

L

If you try to manipulate people into doing what YOU think is good for them, it's almost inevitable that it won't be what THEY think is good for them, and really you already know that it's not, or else you'd just make the case for it to them openly instead of trying to manipulate them.

Ok, I liked the story. So far... But if Marnie cheats on Barry then it's BTB time. The " happy" ending would have Marnie tell Barry of her desire to try others because she never got to and he did. Being honest. Barry understands and says ok if all four consent to swap and Marnie is ok with Barry having Vanessa if Marnie has Will. What is Marnie's reaction to Barry having Vanessa? Is she ok with that or not? If not she's got the dilemma, as does Barry. They agree on the boundaries and nobody is cheating. A good time is had by all. Nobody is left out. The couples rent a cabin in the mountains and swap for the weekend with the men reclaiming their wives on the last night. The swaps happen from time to time but only when all four are aware and consent. They have FMFs and MFMs... The couples become polyamorous. Everyone wins. Both Barry and Will get off watching their wife with the other. I often wanted just such a scenario with another couple my wife and I knew. She didn't want to so it never happened. But I can dream about it.

If Marnie cheats she eventually finds out Barry has been cheating too. She's devastated but has lost the moral high ground by being dishonest.

"When a spouse commits adultery, is the 'wronged' spouse hurt if he or she doesn't find out?"

Even if the wronged spouse never finds out their can be negative consequences. People that know but don't tell may think less of the cuckold and either take advantage or shun him.

"Me personally if it was even talked about as something my wife wanted to do , I would consider divorce. If your thinking about doing it than you probably will sneak if the protest is put up by the other."

Wow so much for open communication in a marriage. Has this guy ever looked at another woman and thought about fucking her? Maybe such a guy is secretly gay. Just because a person has fantasies about other people does not mean they will automatically turn them into reality. I'd love to bang other women but I would only do so if my wife was OK with it and she's not so I will honor my vow to her.

But in any extra marital thing I'd be about equality and being up front about it. Full knowledge and mutual consent. And what's good for the goose is certainly good for the gander.

"that would result in a very boring story of two committed married people talking with one another. I assume that most people don't come to Literotica to read stories about loving committed couples who comminicate well."

Well actually some of us do enjoy a well written story like that. Doesn't have to be boing at all, unless it's beaten to death ala xleg....

We need more of you in this community and less rock throwers. Great story. Finish it or not it's up to you. Please contribute more.

A couple of commentators challenged me to write my version of what might happen following on from Vanessa and Marnie's conversation.

Chapter 1 of 'Will and Marnie Explore . . . ' has gone up today (25th March). Chapter 2 will be submitted in a few days and I am working on Chapter 3.

L

fag cuck shit.

I haven't read the rest of the series. But since you like the woman struggling with inner turmoil, maybe she starts talking about lifestyles with husband and they have different approaches? Lots of different directions to go.

Another illiterate WHORE posting cuck shit.

I have read just about all the comments to this story. Wow what a load of crap. Only a few addressed what should happen to preserve the marriage. She needs to step up and tell her hubby that the sex is not what it should be. Ask him what he could do to improve her pleasure and satisfaction. Maybe hubby will step up and things will improve. Having extramarital sex without hubby's consent is cheating and will become a disaster. If hubby doesn't think its a problem then she should suggest a marriage consultant. If that does not work. The marriage is done because the hubby doesn't care . No love . Move on. But take the high road. Maybe hubby would be open to swinging, problem solved. Truth will set you free one way or another.2EB7

Yes, the husband should be told BEFORE she acts,

Then HE has several choices: "Okay, Hun, have fun!" "Okay, don't wait up for me, I'll be getting some strange, too!" "IF you do that, we're through." "We need counseling." "We're through."

What I DON'T buy is the "It's okay as long as he doesn't know" argument. Maybe the bank analogy isn't the best, but wrong is wrong, whether anyone knows or not. Maybe a better analogy is a forest posted "No Hunting" and you go there and shoot a deer, and leave and nobody finds out. The only one that got hurt is the deer. Were you wrong to hunt there? I say yes.

Which makes me wonder who did? Who has access to my password? Who knows how to sign on as me? I made one comment today. It was on malreux'sstory.

Those who know me know I would never make that comment on this story. I'll be changing my password now. I'll also be asking the moderator about this.

As I said here in an earlier comment, I succumbed to requests to provide an answer to the dilemma posed in this story, and as I then said in comments to the two follow-up stories I later regretted that decision.

But, like you, I do believe that Barry should be told before she makes a move. The question then becomes "who best to tell Barry?" and "what to do if Barry doesn't approve?"

I decided that for my story this was one occasion when it would be better for an outsider to bring the news. It would be difficult (although preferable) for the spouse to do it, but that's less likely to lead to a considered decision. So I had Vanessa do it.

All that was interesting to me, and I had plans for Marnie to rebel in the next chapter, but then I lost interest on the way.

Ah well,

Lue

I am perplexed by SBrooks comment including Randi in the address and Randi's reply to that comment. The only Randi comment that I can see on this story was made a year ago.

Enlightenment please?

Lue

Marnie was content with her husband and sex life -- until Vanessa. Vanessa points out that others have had and have more or different. To the now discontent Marnie, her solution is something immoral. After all, why should she miss out on what others have?

It could be another area. Suppose Marnie was content with her house and clothes -- until Vanessa. Vanessa points out that others have had and have more or different. To the now discontent Marnie she suggests something immoral (eg. shoplifting, escort services, stealing). After all, why should she miss out on what others have?

Vanessa was a (should I add: "evil"?) troublemaker, stirring up problems where none existed. People all across planet earth miss out on what others have. Some of them live in blissful ignorance. Is it always better to enlighten them? Obviously, sometimes it is (a hurricane is headed straight for you, handling lead/asbestos that way will shorten your life, cigarettes...). Vanessa is not a very good friend.

A friend who feels it necessary to stir up discontent, would provide valid aid (I know where you can get a job/better paying job. This sex manual/video helped Will and I).

The story seeks to explore the dilemma of to-tell or not-to-tell. But the problem may be deeper -- a "friend" disturbing another's life by putting wrong ideas in her mind that she might have been better off never knowing about.

Paul in Oklahoma

Marnie should discuss it with Barry if she did decide to take up Vanessa’s offer. Vanessa and Will are neighbors and Vanessa is close to her daughters. I don’t rate the chances of a one-night stand between Marnie and Will being kept a secret. Imagine if Vanessa goes drinking with Marnie’s daughters and this leaks one as a drunken comment.

Marnie should distinguish between 1) is she bored with Barry because sex whilst enjoyable has become a routine or 2) does she want to experience sex with another person other than Barry. The wandering hands and checklist implies she would like to spice up sex with Barry but can this not be something both can experiment together without having to draw inspiration from an encounter with Will?

The other reason for not taking up Vanessa’s offer is it sounds like Will is having some form of mid-life crisis and Vanessa is trying to “guide” him through this phase by arranging hookups for him (I would recommend counseling). I would just stay clear of the both of them until they sort out their issues.

You can spin a yarn Lue and I like you works of fiction because not only are they well written and structured, you also throw in sufficient content (that one is at liberty to interpret). I fell off the sofa laughing when I came across Albert Ellis being quoted in the Seagull (not something I was expecting in a category largely for narcissistic wet dreamers and where facts are butchered)

Thanks for the comment, Anonymous

.

As I have said in earlier comments on this and the follow-up stories, Marnie and Vanessa was supposed to be a single story posing a dilemma. I foolishly accepted the commenters' challenge to continue on with the Marnie and Will saga and have regretted it ever since. All I wanted to do was get commenters thinking about whether she should or shouldn't do it and to tell or not tell Barry. Never again will I do what the readers want. I write for my own entertainment.

.

On the other hand, I'm glad that you found amusement in the Seagull series when the old bloke quoted Ellis. (I tossed Perls into that story as well.) We try to bring education to the masses. It's mostly the old bloke, but you can't be married to someone for more than half a century without some of it rubbing off.

.

Any idea of Loving Wives stories being erotic is long gone. The category is mainly full of stories and comments from authors and commenters pushing an agenda of husbands' reactions to their wives wanderings beyond the marital bounds. I tried for eroticism with my first story, but no more. I now flog my alternative to all the other agenda.

.

Lue

I would hate to go to my grave with my last thought having been 'I wonder what it would've been like with somebody else?'.

Seriously?

Does anyone think about 'things they have missed' rather than about the people that are going to miss them?

I suppose there must be a few so lacking in empathy that last thoughts will only be about themselves. That implies they do not care about others in any way other than how they can manipulate them. Sad creatures.

Short solution, when Barry comes into the bedroom tonight, hug him from behind. Run your fingers up and down his chest. Undo his shirt, then the waist band of his trousers. Take it from there as whatever seems good.

In short stop being boring. Barry is not the problem, Marnie is. How dare she leave Barry to do all the work.

Believe me I have had that problem from my wife for far too many years. I am very pleased to say that she sometimes does get the ball rolling herself though. So all is not lost for us as Marnie and Barry are.

And the wheels turn...

To think about swapping or testing the waters is a very dangerous path as to what you could loose , as for your friends suggestion to try out her husband what is in it for her as she and her husband can't really truly love each other ?